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HOW DO I MONK?

Monk Strategies Noob Combat Optimization

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#61
The Josip

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Is there any consensus on monk weapons?

 

Do fists become obsolete and at what point?

What is the weapon of choice for a monk in that case?

When should you use high dmg weapons and when high speed?

What are the best enchants not counting 50k one because I'm not sure if you get that much money in the game (well, not for 6 characters at least)?

 

 

What is the consensus on (dps, non-monk specific) monk talents?

 

Is Peasant mastery the best, or not really because one uses weapons later on? In which case, what mastery is advisable and why?

What of the other offensive talents? Some give + and - effects, does it still pay off or only marginally?

 

 

 

If I use fist+offhand weapon then I don't get two weapons talent speed bonus right? Which means this is what I use when I need more accuracy at the expense of speed and thus damage?



#62
Climhazzard

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Basically fists have the same speed as fast speed weapons and the same damage as average speed weapons.  They are viable until endgame.  Probably their main advantage is that they upgrade without you finding any weapons, so you can save your upgrade materials for other characters.  If you want endurance drain though you'll want to look elsewhere, and certain builds will benefit quite a bit from endurance drain, it synergizes well with monks. I actually think dual sabers has better potential than dual fists if you like to use torments reach, they give you a higher full attack potential plus the resolution and purgatory sabers both have +0.5 crit bonus, purgatory also happens to come with endurance drain.  

 

I don't really know to much about fist+offhand.  I have read that basically the fist isn't used for normal attacks but is added into your full attack calculations, and that any bonus from the offhand will apply.  The only situation I can think of where you'd want to do this is if you wanted a higher accuracy for torment's reach, but since you would be losing auto attack damage potential, i'm not sure if it's worth it.

 

If you wanted higher accuracy but less damage, for say force of anguish, you'd probably just be better off using a spear/buckler combination, though I guess you'd get less wounds that way.


Edited by Climhazzard, 14 April 2015 - 12:35 PM.


#63
The Josip

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How good would Spears be in comparison? I intend to run minimum Resolve so want to avoid the effect of being interrupted by maintaining high attack speed. Plus, obvious reason is: mastery peasant. For sabres it means another mastery which I don't mind if it's better but I do need to plan in advance.



#64
Casildar

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If you wanted higher accuracy but less damage, for say force of anguish, you'd probably just be better off using a spear/buckler combination, though I guess you'd get less wounds that way.

 

You lose a chunk of accuracy putting the shield on.  Not from the shield accuracy penalty, obviously, because buckler doesn't have one, but from the bonus accuracy you get for wielding only a single 1h weapon.  Fist+offhand is the same accuracy as single 1h and that's the highest you're going to get.  It just has the added bug/feature of giving you dual wield damage on Full Attack abilities.

 

I don't know for certain whether you lose the two weapon style bonus, but I think you do.

 

@Josip:  The consensus was (maybe still is) that fists aren't as good as weapons because no enchanting, but personally I think Climhazzard's numbers earlier in the thread show that it's at the very least not as clear cut and that fists have plenty going for them.  I just don't know if plenty=enough.  Even if the damage/accuracy bases skewed in favor of fists enough so that fists ended up being just as good as an average speed weapon with a lash enchant, you're still missing out on a possible slayer enchant for specific fights (if you do that kind of thing) as well as the baseline bonus all the weapon types have:  accurate, DR bypass, dual damage types, etc.  Five accuracy or 3 DR bypass are nothing to scoff at.

 

The problem of when to use high damage and when to use high speed is that, like Climhazzard mentioned above, monk fists are already fast weapons and already do damage equivalent to average speed weapons (discluding sabres).  So I think you never use fast weapons unless you really need a secondary effect that one has.  If you're not using fists and other secondary effects on weapons you can't enchant yourself aren't a concern, I think it has to be sabres or spears.

 

The usual downside to sabres is that they're slashing damage only, and that's the damage type with the largest number of npcs that have high DR against.  But assuming you're running empty hands on swap, it's not a big deal for monks.  The benefit to spears is that they're both Accurate and in the Peasant category.  For solo, I'm planning to run a pair of spears in offhand (mostly for a secondary damage type vs crush resist mobs, since I can't get the drain spear) unless I can manage to get down far enough in Endless Paths to get the fireball sabre.  I'd like Purgatory, too, but the only place I've seen someone mention it drops from is an early act 3 fight and when I did that fight I didn't get the sabre.  Not sure if it's just random loot or what.

 

Edit @Josip re: above post

 

Spears are average speed.


Edited by Casildar, 14 April 2015 - 01:04 PM.


#65
b0rsuk

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Fists are faster than dual sabers, no ? There are advantages to attacking faster. Level2 wizard spell: Combusting Wounds, 5 fire damage each time the target is hit. My monk and Sagani love it. Also, my monk has 16 Perception, and Interrupting Blows. Sometimes I can stunlock enemies without really doing anything.



#66
Climhazzard

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Yeah they're faster, I have no idea what their interrupt potential is though, if fists have average interrupt potential then monk martial artists would be pretty great at interrupting.  

 

A stat spread like 16s-12c-16d-16p-8i-10r would have high reflexes too, so you could potentially make a pale elf interrupter that you would be able to target with wizard spells like fan of flames and fireball in order to generate wounds while frying opponents.



#67
Casildar

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Fists are faster than dual sabers, no ? There are advantages to attacking faster. Level2 wizard spell: Combusting Wounds, 5 fire damage each time the target is hit. My monk and Sagani love it. Also, my monk has 16 Perception, and Interrupting Blows. Sometimes I can stunlock enemies without really doing anything.

 

Yeah they are.  I was saying I don't think you ever use fast speed weapons (meaning, if you want fast speed, use fists) unless you need some secondary effect that a specific fast weapon has.  If it's a question of using 1h weapons other than fists, I mentioned spears (accuracy and synergy with Peasant Weap Focus if you have it for fists) and sabres (higher damage).

 

But really I guess a case can easily be made for ditching fists altogether and going with something like Ruffian Focus, running 2x stilettos and 2x sabres.  Assuming high end enchants, I doubt there's a big difference between stiletto and fist.  (Strictly untested supposition on my part.)



#68
Emptiness

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Interrupting Blows is currently broken, and does nothing.  If you want to focus on interrupts right now, the best you can do is max your perception (and accuracy, of course).



#69
b0rsuk

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Ah, so it's getting even better after the next patch ?

 

Compared to my first playthrough, which was Eder, Kana, Durance, Druid, Hiravius, Sagani, monk fists really do well. I'm against ogres now (10 DR) and they're fine, the best part is I'm able to stay on front line for a long time against these hard hitters. And this time it's on Hard. And if ogres don't stop me...


Edited by b0rsuk, 14 April 2015 - 02:22 PM.


#70
ibanix

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This is the dual wield DPS monk, not the Tank monk.

 

Random: Thanks for your videos. Am enjoying.



#71
The Josip

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Not to be ungrateful but my problem with these video guides is that they're just a waste of time. it's either enumeration of what I can see by myself on wiki or ingame, or it's outdated incorrect info, or it's just incorrect info. Forum offers more useful data and faster, if you filter the "I think.." "should be.." and similiar posts made by people who don't know, don't test, but still want to say something.

 

 

As for the above video, for instance:

 

1. Stats are not min maxed. This for me is a dead giveaway of a lack of expertise even though the person may know something, but that something is just not enough for me. For example, is interrupting worth it or not? If not, why Perception? Are monk utility skills more useful than occasionally interrupting an enemy for 1/3 of a second? If yes, why not Int over Per? Are you going to be a frequent target of enemy attack? If not, why Resolve? If yes, why not max Resolve and Perception and go with the tank build? Is this the build for jack of all trades monk or dps monk? If it's for dps monk why is the title wrong? If it's for jack of all trades monk then why play monk and not chanter? And is there a need for jack of all trades guide? Because you can randomize stats in that case, in any way you want. Not min maxing didn't make sense to me even when I just got the game, and it does less now when I saw that mediocre Per and Res has near-zero impact deflection-wise in any battle that matters, at least on the level I'm currently at (with no reason to believe otherwise). I'm talking about 1 miss that 5 enemies had combined in entire battle. Is it worth 15 points? No. These kind of things make me wonder what else is incorrect / not optimized.

 

2. Race and background are suboptimal which can be RP choice but when you're making a guide you should choose what works best, or at least tell people what each choice does.

 

3. I for the love of me can't see why anyone would link that video above as it provides no useful info, and half of it is just killing wolves in the beginning which everyone can experience. And then it tells you what you can choose at level 4 (which is outdated anyway, should be level 3 for FoA). There are numerous posts in this forum, single posts, that are ten times more useful.


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#72
Gromnir

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As for the above video, for instance:

 

1. Stats are not min maxed. This for me is a dead giveaway of a lack of expertise even though the person may know something, but that something is just not enough for me. 

 

...

 

we got a bit o' a chuckle.  am not a fan o' sensuki but even Gromnir would hesitate to criticize him for paucity o' knowledge regarding poe.

 

HA! Good Fun!


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#73
Maximvs

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People claiming that monk fist weapons does not do well in end game should be reminded that monks can equip weapons like everyone else.



#74
Maximvs

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Not to be ungrateful but my problem with these video guides is that they're just a waste of time. it's either enumeration of what I can see by myself on wiki or ingame, or it's outdated incorrect info, or it's just incorrect info. Forum offers more useful data and faster, if you filter the "I think.." "should be.." and similiar posts made by people who don't know, don't test, but still want to say something.

The problem with these is indeed the waste of time. Something that can be explained in 2 minutes often end up being 10 minute videos, sometimes up to an hour! Not to mention those that tries to get as many views from the kids and starts acting stupid.



#75
Raven Darkholme

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I didn't get much help from those videos either, but I wouldn't claim the dude doesn't know what he's saying.



#76
Gromnir

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People claiming that monk fist weapons does not do well in end game should be reminded that monks can equip weapons like everyone else.

they don't need to be reminded.  most is aware o' that fact.  the problem is that while a monk fist is the equal (equal enough) o' any other endgame weapon with nothing save vanilla enchantments, the fist is not capable o' bearing the other enchantments any endgame player will have added to his spear or pike or whatever.  

 

sensuki wanted tattoos to go in the fist slot for monks.  am not a fan o' tattoos ourself.  prayer beads would be our suggestion as every major rl religion seems to have a variation o' prayer beads, and unlike tattoos, they ain't permanent. beads work fine for the atheist monk as well as they is often no more than a tool for meditation.  regardless, the goal were to make something that could be added to unarmed that could also be enchanted.  

 

aside:  the addition o' monk gloves for 1.05 do not much appeal to us.

 

HA! Good Fun!



#77
The Josip

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beads work fine for the atheist monk as well as they is often no more than a tool for meditation.
 

 

Oh wow, an atheist monk? What else comes on your mind after a dose of svef? Steel water? Maybe it was an atheist baked like a monk after self-immolation.. interesting..

 

 

(Speaking of which, I bet that some of the designers smoke weed.)


Edited by The Josip, 15 April 2015 - 09:47 AM.


#78
Climhazzard

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Min/maxing isn't really necessary on a monk, if you dump perception or resolve you'll have bad saves and deflection, if you dump intelligence you'll only be able to dps with a torments reach that hits one guy.  I wouldn't of gone with 12 intelligence, but that's just me.  I think you could make a dangerous implements glass cannon that is really min maxed, but most monks have to spend some time on the front lines so being a glass cannon makes them a liability.



#79
The Josip

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Min/maxing isn't really necessary on a monk, if you dump perception or resolve you'll have bad saves and deflection,

 

No. You don't have bad saves because the game doesn't work like that. It's impossible to have bad saves in this game because every stat saves something, or more precisely, two saves. Yea, you lose Will if you min Resolve, but you max Int so it's still the same as if it would be if you kept these stats on equal level. Not only that, but mediocre saves are not going to do much in tough battes, or won't do anything at all, so two mediocre saves actually translate to none, while one maxed actually means something.

 

That whole "saves" thing is a myth, along with deflection, and if I managed to notice that in 2 weeks of gameplay I'm very sceptical towards all the veterans of the game who are active on the forum for years and still didn't notice that in a tough battle that actually matters mediocre deflection results in 0-1 total misses by all the enemies combined. In other words, it's absolutely useless.

 

 

So just like in every other game I played I have to rely on my own skill and knowledge and testing and observation because as usual there are few people who get the game and the rest just generates noise and disinformation. A bit harsh, but I'm really tired of playing the game and seeing how almost everything I test goes contrary to what people are saying in the forum.


Edited by The Josip, 15 April 2015 - 10:48 AM.


#80
Climhazzard

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Huh my monk at the end of the game has 95 deflection without a shield which I don't really consider mediocre.  If i thought deflection was useless, dumped perception and/or resolve, didn't take duality of mortal presence and superior deflection, didn't use a ring of deflection, well my monks deflection could easily be around 55-60 instead.  Crits would be rocking her world and she'd be a major liability to the team.







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