Rogues a bit...meh?

[Cronstintein]

Wondering if it's just me that thinks rogues are a bit lackluster?  I usually like them in these kind of games but they seem really underpowered compared to the other classes.  Especially since the classic bread and butter skills, stealth and mechanics, can be done by anyone. 

Maybe I'm just building them wrong.  Does anyone have a rogue build that seems powerful compared to other classes?

 

As it stands now I'll probably make a stealth/mechanics cypher instead.

[TrueMenace]

They do the highest single target DPS out of all classes. They are amazing. Take advantage of their sneak attacks, backstab attacks, and other damage multipliers from their abilities + talents.

Edited March 23, 2015 by TrueMenace

[MasterPrudent]

Give them high might and high dexterity, be sure to inflict conditions that allow for sneak attacks, keep them out of the way of enemies' attacks and they will murder everything.

Edited March 23, 2015 by MasterPrudent

[curryinahurry]

As stated, Rogues are designed to do high single target damage if built correctly.  They require a fair amount of micromanagement as positioning and timing of attacks is pretty critical with them.  Ranged, they are strong and deliver consistent damage. In melee, they can be absolutely devastating with the right equipment, but also go down very fast if caught one on one by a tanky character.

[etagloc]

my beta rogue did crazy single damage. and I didnt even min/max

my main char is going to be a rogue with a pistol, and some stabby stabby weapons

[willdunz]

can anyone recommend a good melee rogue build?

[Kordanor]

Does anyone know if they changed anything regarding the situation with Backstab which you get on level 2 and requires Shadowing Beyond, which you get on level 4?

And whether Shadowing Beyong is still 2 times per Rest, which reduces the use of backstab to 2 times per rest as well. So basically 2 Talents for 2 attacks, which seems to be quite a lot.

[TrueMenace]

Does anyone know if they changed anything regarding the situation with Backstab which you get on level 2 and requires Shadowing Beyond, which you get on level 4?

And whether Shadowing Beyong is still 2 times per Rest, which reduces the use of backstab to 2 times per rest as well. So basically 2 Talents for 2 attacks, which seems to be quite a lot.

Hehe, I remember making that thread addressing that issue. I would have to ask Sensuki, but he seems super busy playing the game .

 

Keep in mind, you can get a free backstab attack if you stealth and attack before the fight begins. Backstabs don't require you to be only invisible, you can also get backstabs off from stealth. 

Edited March 23, 2015 by TrueMenace

[Luckmann]

 

Does anyone know if they changed anything regarding the situation with Backstab which you get on level 2 and requires Shadowing Beyond, which you get on level 4?

And whether Shadowing Beyong is still 2 times per Rest, which reduces the use of backstab to 2 times per rest as well. So basically 2 Talents for 2 attacks, which seems to be quite a lot.

Hehe, I remember making that thread addressing that issue. I would have to ask Sensuki, but he seems super busy playing the game .

 

Keep in mind, you can get a free backstab attack if you stealth and attack before the fight begins. Backstabs don't require you to be only invisible, you can also get backstabs off from stealth. 

 

 

While I question the start-with-a-backstab viability, that's neither here nor there, but they really should update the description to clarify that it includes both Invisibility and Stealth, since they are not the same thing at all in game terms.

 

It's an easy mistake to make, since someone that isn't used to reading RPG rules probably isn't going to make the distinction.

 

The difference between Backstabs and Sneak Attacks should also be clarified since it's common terminology in games, and they often refer to the same mechanic.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Luckmann

[Stun]

They do the highest single target DPS out of all classes.

Do they?

 

I know that the occasional spike damage they can do with Backstab is pretty darn unmatched, but I question that absolute claim. My last two playthroughs of the beta was spent vigorously testing that "heavy hitter" label.

 

I built 2 characters, a Barbarian and a Rogue. I built them exactly the same (both Aumaua; both with totally maxed out Might and Perception, and both had the same Dex.) I gave them the same weapon (2-h, Pike) And then I proceeded to watch the combat log.

 

And the result: over the course of the playthroughs I noticed that my Rogue was most definitely getting more Crits than my barbarian. In fact, he was spamming crits. he'd get 4 or 5 in a row. But what was the Point? Both characters were still doing about the same damage. My Rogue would Crit lions and beetles for ~35 points and my Barbarian would hit normally for ~35 points.

 

This only ever changed when my rogue would take advantage of enemy states (hobbled, prone, etc), in those instances he'd do a bit more damage (say, about 40 damage) vs. my Barbarian, who'd still be doing about 35 damage when placed in the same scenario. But the real difference was that my Barbarian's attacks were all carnage. Enemies around his target were taking damage with every hit!

 

I'd like Sensuki's input on this, but at the moment I'm inclined to conclude that when the time comes that I want to build a DPS character, I'll be making a Barbarian.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Stun

[Kordanor]

But then you must have done something wrong. And by that I mean that both characters were probably set up so differently that the result must have been determined from that alone.

 

I mean just take a level 1 Rogue and Barbarian and let them fight against a single target.

 

The Barbarian has 25 Accuracy, the Rogue has 30 Accuracy. By that alone with the same stats with the same weapon the rogue has 5% of crits instead of hits, so 150% instead of 0% damage. Which should be a total dps increase by 7.5% if I am not wrong (probably higher due to the net damage over DT).

 

Now the blinding strike does +25% damage or the crippling strike +25% damage. With 10 int default thats 10s where your attacks then do 150% of damage.

The Barbarian however has a Frenzy for 12 seconds, which is 4 Might (12% dmg) and 33% speed boost, where every every additional hit faces the DT again.

 

In addition the rogue also profits from status effects other characters cause. So in single target, also with following abilities I don't see how the rogue can get worse or even equal to the barbarian, or do 35 crits where the barb does 35 normal.

 

Of course if you count in the Carnage damage you have a different total. But thats not the point when discussing a Single Target DD.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Kordanor

[Gromnir]

people always reference their attributes in their build comparisons, but talents and abilities are likely more important than the attributes.  say you got same attributes for two classes is less meaningful than you might expect.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Sock]

 

They do the highest single target DPS out of all classes.

Do they?

 

I know that the occasional spike damage they can do with Backstab is pretty darn unmatched, but I question that absolute claim. My last two playthroughs of the beta was spent vigorously testing that "heavy hitter" label.

 

I built 2 characters, a Barbarian and a Rogue. I built them exactly the same (both Aumaua; both with totally maxed out Might and Perception, and both had the same Dex.) I gave them the same weapon (2-h, Pike) And then I proceeded to watch the combat log.

 

And the result: over the course of the playthroughs I noticed that my Rogue was most definitely getting more Crits than my barbarian. In fact, he was spamming crits. he'd get 4 or 5 in a row. But what was the Point? Both characters were still doing about the same damage. My Rogue would Crit lions and beetles for ~35 points and my Barbarian would hit normally for ~35 points.

 

This only ever changed when my rogue would take advantage of enemy states (hobbled, prone, etc), in those instances he'd do a bit more damage (say, about 40 damage) vs. my Barbarian, who'd still be doing about 35 damage when placed in the same scenario. But the real difference was that my Barbarian's attacks were all carnage. Enemies around his target were taking damage with every hit!

 

I'd like Sensuki's input on this, but at the moment I'm inclined to conclude that when the time comes that I want to build a DPS character, I'll be making a Barbarian.

 

 

Close testing, but not quite. The barbarian's core ability, carnage, triggers automatically and gains more benefit the more you have clumped together.

 

The rogue core ability, sneak attack, only triggers on certain conditions. Conditions which you said you weren't enabling faithfully.

 

In order to more accurately test the balance of their abilities, you need to keep things clumped for the barbarian, and keep things flanked/hobbled/crippled/whatever for the rogue. Cipher and Rogue are a great combination, and fighter and barbarian is another. Ciphers can use phantom foes to keep enemies in a large radius flanked. They also have a cheap blind which also enables sneak attacks. Fighters can engaged up to four targets at once, thus clumping them for the barbarian.

 

In short, create optimal situations for both classes. I would never play a rogue without a cipher in the party, for example. The barbarian will have the edge if you don't want to micromanage them much, since their core ability triggers no matter what, but I find that barbarians are really dependant on party members having engagement slots, otherwise their AoE will draw unengaged NPCs to them, and then they need a lot of healing.

[Kordanor]

Nice tips about symbiosis. You got any other classes which work well together?

 

Regarding Engagement slots. You got an overlook about how many of these "slots" a Figher (Eder) and a Paladin (Pallegina) might get in a "normal companion" group? Didnt check into these classes too deply.

[Cronstintein]

The problem, as I see it, is that the rogue gives up a huge amount of survivability for a moderate amount of damage.  And uses the talent slots for the damage increases.  So while a fighter/barbarian/monk will have his own talents that are comparable with the rogue, he'll also get the survival benefits 'for free'.

Also the stealth mechanics seem terrible for purposes of getting those sneak attacks.  Since the whole party is visible as soon as combat starts, you basically either don't get to sneak attack, or you have to send the rogue in alone to get mobbed. Meh!

I think if that invisibility talent was 2/encounter instead of 2/rest, you'd start to have some viability in terms of cost/benefit.

[TrueMenace]

The problem, as I see it, is that the rogue gives up a huge amount of survivability for a moderate amount of damage.  And uses the talent slots for the damage increases.  So while a fighter/barbarian/monk will have his own talents that are comparable with the rogue, he'll also get the survival benefits 'for free'.

Also the stealth mechanics seem terrible for purposes of getting those sneak attacks.  Since the whole party is visible as soon as combat starts, you basically either don't get to sneak attack, or you have to send the rogue in alone to get mobbed. Meh!

I think if that invisibility talent was 2/encounter instead of 2/rest, you'd start to have some viability in terms of cost/benefit.

First learn what sneak attacks are and what backstabs are.

[Sock]

Everyone starts with 1 engagement slot and everyone has access to hold the line, a talent which gives an additional +1.

Fighters have a modal ability that gives +2.

Barbarians have an ability that gives +1.

Ranger pets have 2 engagement slots, but they are NOT suited for tanking.

 

Rangers and Fighters can engage four, but rangers aren't really suited for it. Barbarians can engage three which works great for carnage, but they have low defelection and cannot survive it unless you also boost their defensive capabilities significantly. Everyone else can engage 2.

 

 

As for potent combos:

Wizard with Blunderbuss, Barbairan dual wield, and Fighter with a shield is a great combo to get the most out of the wizard spell Combusting Wounds. It triggers additional burn damage on each hit, so the more hits the more damage it does. Clump NPCs on fighter, cast spell, then wizard blasts the strongest target with the blunderbuss and barbarian rips the rest apart in short order with rapidfire AoE.

 

For strictly class combos:

Rogue and Ranger - if you spec down pet damage, since pets can get access to sneak attack too, and between wounding shot and the rogue's blind, you can keep the targets vulnerable. Further, the rogue can get a raw damage DoT applied on every hit, while the pet can take a talent to do 1.2x damage to targets suffering from a DoT. There's a lot of ways that they can compliment each other.

[Cronstintein]

Making a semantic argument doesn't really counter any of my points  :/

If anything, the attacks are poorly named as sneak attacks aren't related to sneaking but backstabs are

Since you understood what I meant maybe reply to that rather than being snarky.

[Luckmann]

I have nothing constructive to add to this discussion.

But I wanted to repost this because I love it.

[Cronstintein]

btw I do think the current backstab info does reference both stealth and invisibility.  Still pretty bad w/o the invis talent but at least the effect is clear.

[Kordanor]

Do any of you guys know whether any of the Modal abilities "Reckless Assault", "Vulnerable Attack" and "Savage Attack" are exclusive to each other?

Edited March 23, 2015 by Kordanor

[Elerond]

Do any of you guys know whether any of the Modal abilities "Reckless Assault", "Vulnerable Attack" and "Savage Attack" are exclusive to each other?

 

No they aren't you can switch all three on same time and stack their effects

[Kordanor]

Nice! Thats a very decent bonus then.

[dunehunter]

 

Do any of you guys know whether any of the Modal abilities "Reckless Assault", "Vulnerable Attack" and "Savage Attack" are exclusive to each other?

 

No they aren't you can switch all three on same time and stack their effects

 

 

Why defensive modals like Defender and Cautious Attack dont stack witch each other while offensive modals can ? Seems its a bug to me.