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Cipher Powers need to be tweaked for release...

#BuffCipherJosh

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47 replies to this topic

#21
ushas

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wait a minute. I just got BB Fighter Flanked & Blinded and this two obviously stack -> -30 defl.:

Spoiler

 

edit: stunned & flanked too


Edited by ushas, 20 March 2015 - 07:33 PM.

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#22
TrueMenace

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wait a minute. I just got BB Fighter Flanked & Blinded and this two obviously stack -> -30 defl.:

Spoiler

 

edit: stunned & flanked too

This just got interesting...

 

So is that a bug? Is Flanked even an affliction? Only "afflictions" can override other "afflictions". 


Edited by TrueMenace, 20 March 2015 - 07:35 PM.

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#23
Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

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It's sure as hell 

 



 



wait a minute. I just got BB Fighter Flanked & Blinded and this two obviously stack -> -30 defl.:

Spoiler

 

edit: stunned & flanked too

This just got interesting...

 

So is that a bug? Is Flanked even an affliction? Only "afflictions" can override other "afflictions". 

 

 

 

It's sure as hell something. My understanding was that only the strongest penalty to a given stat would be put in place, just like stacking with buffs. Maybe "Flanked" counts as "passive" ? Did the "flanked" in your test come from an ability or from positioning?

 

I mean that's still not really enough to make Phantom Foes "good" but if it stacks with everything because of some weird twist of the rules that's a benefit.


Edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy, 20 March 2015 - 07:44 PM.


#24
Veevoir

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Try reading the in-game encyclopedia. It mentions exactly which affliction replaces which.

It is not a simple case of supression when the penalty to stat X is higher. It has more to do with afflictions being in a "ladder", for example Frightened-->Terrified. Or hobbled->stunned->paralyzed->petrified.

^Above examples are out of my head, may not be exactly as in game.



#25
Sensuki

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I'm pretty sure Flanked is supposed to stack, as it's not really a normal affliction.

#26
Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

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Try reading the in-game encyclopedia. It mentions exactly which affliction replaces which.

It is not a simple case of supression when the penalty to stat X is higher. It has more to do with afflictions being in a "ladder", for example Frightened-->Terrified. Or hobbled->stunned->paralyzed->petrified.

^Above examples are out of my head, may not be exactly as in game.

 

 

Yeah, I've read it! Again, wasn't claiming that *flanked* the status effect didn't stack with other afflictions, but that (presuming it follows the stacking rules that everything else does) its effect of -10 deflection wouldn't. (just like if you have two buffs and they both buff Deflection and something else, only one of the Deflection buffs will take effect).

 

I'm pretty sure Flanked is supposed to stack, as it's not really a normal affliction.

 

Yeah, that's possible and maybe that's the logic here. Maybe it's a "passive" effect rather than a "debuff" in the stacking formula, which would make it stack with everything else. 

 

That still doesn't really make phantom foes "good" or worth taking but I guess it's slightly less horrible. Either way this is either a bug or something that needs to be clarified.


Edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy, 21 March 2015 - 05:23 AM.


#27
ushas

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Try reading the in-game encyclopedia. It mentions exactly which affliction replaces which.

It is not a simple case of supression when the penalty to stat X is higher. It has more to do with afflictions being in a "ladder", for example Frightened-->Terrified. Or hobbled->stunned->paralyzed->petrified.

^Above examples are out of my head, may not be exactly as in game.

 

Yes but the replacement rule is another mechanism besides buff/debuff suppression. So when the character is under Hobbled & Prone afflictions, one of the Dexterity and one of the Reflex debuffs would be suppressed. Though listed under afflictions, Flanked looks like being an exception.



#28
TrueMenace

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We may need clarification from the devs on this. Can anyone let them know about it. I mean, I would hope you could stack debuffs onto flanked. Not a big fan of the overriding character between afflictions that share similar qualities honestly, makes the affliction system bloated and overly obtuse and unintuitive (constantly checking their tooltip descriptions for example is annoying).

Edited by TrueMenace, 21 March 2015 - 07:14 AM.


#29
ushas

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I would like to first take a look at the stacking in the final game and how it will be communicated there. But I guess, you can PM developers and QA in this forum.

 

@TrueMenace, didn't you say that you are thinking about to make a Cipher guide?

 

Depending how much into detail you want to go. In case if commenting on individual abilities, maybe it would be also useful to mention the stacking rule there?

 

Likewise, as other guys were discussing their weapon preferences in the Soul Whip thread, I think it's also interesting that basically any weapon style one likes may work for Focus gathering. I mean it's logical to me now, that game sums all the float weapon damage done under the hood, and after every 4 points of damage accumulated it adds +1 to the Focus. But I'm not sure how clear it's when players are normally playing and seeing integers and rounded down-like bonuses...

(Yeah of course, on the other hand, talent Draining Whip itself is probably only tied to the number of hits)


Edited by ushas, 24 March 2015 - 10:56 AM.


#30
Answermancer

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I'm surprised that flanked stacks with other Deflection debuffs but I suppose it makes sense since unlike any (?) other effect you can achieve it with just positioning. That makes it more like a passive effect, and passive effects stack.

 

With the stacking, I could see the flanking Cipher spell being nice if your primary damage dealer was a rogue (ideally with a weapon or two that gives extra damage to flanked foes). Team synergy is fun.


Edited by Answermancer, 24 March 2015 - 05:25 PM.


#31
Macsen

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Does anyone know how the rejuvenation of focus is actually calculated?  On the very small amount of testing I've done I don't think it's actually linked to damage but it's if you graze/hit or crit that gives you a more upward trend in the amount of focus, crit being the best misses get nothing.  I also think the level of the opponent you hit might affect things.  If you successfully graze/hit or crit a high level opponent e.g. Ogre you get more focus than you would vs a lower level opponent e.g. lion.

Am I miles off on this?  Anyone know?



#32
Diogenes

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You get X focus for Y damage.



#33
Kjaamor

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To go back to the original point I am absolutely stunned that you regard what is surely the most powerful class in the game right now as needing buffing.



#34
Urthor

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To go back to the original point I am absolutely stunned that you regard what is surely the most powerful class in the game right now as needing buffing.

 

well 

 

a) even if it's the most powerful class in the game, that doesn't mean it should have junk choices on its power tree  

 

b) what on earth makes you think that cipher is "the most powerful class in the game."  Did its single target DPS magically overtake rogue's overnight?  Did the debuffs/CC improve by some order of magnitude?   


Edited by Urthor, 25 March 2015 - 02:44 AM.


#35
Luckmann

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[...]
 
a) even if it's the most powerful class in the game, that doesn't mean it should have junk choices on its power tree  
 
[...]

 

Ignoring which class has the biggest package, this, absolutely this.

It's like the argument that because Paladins can tank very well, they don't need balancing and everything is fine.

Even if Ciphers were one shotting dragons with one power, doesn't mean that another power should be utterly useless. Quite the opposite. If Ciphers are overpowered for some reason, they should be adjusted, not have junk choices in it's power tree. Just because X is powerful doesn't make Y worthwhile.


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#36
View619

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To go back to the original point I am absolutely stunned that you regard what is surely the most powerful class in the game right now as needing buffing.

 

You're thinking Druid.


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#37
wickermoon

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[...]
 
a) even if it's the most powerful class in the game, that doesn't mean it should have junk choices on its power tree  
 
[...]

 

Ignoring which class has the biggest package, this, absolutely this.

It's like the argument that because Paladins can tank very well, they don't need balancing and everything is fine.

Even if Ciphers were one shotting dragons with one power, doesn't mean that another power should be utterly useless. Quite the opposite. If Ciphers are overpowered for some reason, they should be adjusted, not have junk choices in it's power tree. Just because X is powerful doesn't make Y worthwhile.

 

 

While I agree with the sentiment, I would say that as long as there are other classes far far far worse off than the Cipher, the devs should focus on those classes instead. Also, the opening post sounded much like it wanted to express that Ciphers are too weak, which they aren't.


Edited by wickermoon, 25 March 2015 - 06:10 AM.


#38
Vortex

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LOL Cipher one of the best classes in the game? Not sure if serious. Its pretty worrying that they needed to be adjusted in the day 1 patch....



#39
Luckmann

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LOL Cipher one of the best classes in the game? Not sure if serious. Its pretty worrying that they needed to be adjusted in the day 1 patch....


All of the classes will probably be "adjusted" in some way by the Day 1 Patch. This is no surprise whatsoever.

#40
Kjaamor

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To go back to the original point I am absolutely stunned that you regard what is surely the most powerful class in the game right now as needing buffing.

 

You're thinking Druid.

 

 

Druids win battles, Ciphers win wars.

 

Or to phrase it another way...

 

Druids win battles in around 5 seconds, with several party members knocked out and maybe some permadead, Ciphers win the same battles in around 40 seconds, with everyone at nearly full health.

 

I respect Druids, but they are a class that demands a lot of sacrifices - mainly from other members of the team.






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