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SLOWED RECOVERY WHILE MOVING - NO THANKS


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#161
Gfted1

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Perhaps if everyone simply focuses on making themselves better human beings then these asinine slapfights wouldn't go on for 8 pages. Again, please focus your attentions on the posts and not the posters.


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#162
BPM

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It's not an AI problem - if they can't see / detect your other characters and you keep the character they're chasing close to them. AI programming is difficult and in the majority of cases, the most sensible thing for melee AI to do is attack the closest unit - especially with the Engagement system.

this game is aiming to be more simulationist than the original ie games actually were and it doesn't sit well with some people.

That's the first time I've heard ANYONE accuse Pillars of Eternity of being simulationist. Are you really sure you've played the game?
Are you in love with hyperbole? Do you normally throw out other people's modifier words to twist their sentences into a narrative that allows you to try and attack their credibility?
More. More. More.
>
And it is, factually, more of a simulation of fantasy combat scenarios than IE.
As an rpg it is never actually a simulation. That makes no sense...the entire point is to represent complex minutiae with numbers. I'm really concerned that you still don't grasp abstraction layer yet. Please open your mind to new ideas, stop living in the past. It's almost frightening how neurotic your social interaction style is.
Do you want to voice chat me? Do you need an irl friend to calm you down? Did you get bit by too many spiders as a kid? I can't fathom why you take something so innocuous, non confrontational, and factual and attempt to construct a conflict out of it.
I'm really worried about you.
What the difference between sensuki's "attempt to construct a conflict" and your passive-aggressive escaltion of the those conflicts? Your telling him to chill out and then giving him reason to react that way at the same time.
Did I create the thread in all caps? I am definitely not escalating, I'm diverting. I want him to be a better human being and argue in good faith. I don't actually care at all about the design outcomes of the game;I gave obsidian money because I trusted the product they would create.

Reason to react what way? He chose a comment I made to another person, and intentionally misappropriated what i said to construct a false narrative. That's deceptive, period. I am certainly confrontational but I am not misleading in what I take issue with.

And considering how many people have repeatedly pointed out his predatory argument framing to no avail, you are just enabling him by claiming he has an ' excuse '. There is no excuse.

Sadly these aren't the EJ forums or this wouldn't even be necessary.

Its saying things like "I want him to be a better human being" that escaltes it because it comes off as "I need to teach this lowly peon how to act" whether that's your intention or not. Considering the whole "sensuki is rude and hostile" feels like an attempt to discredit or invalidate his points on the topic or at the very least distract people from the point of his post. So if your going for the whole good Samaritan thing its not being percieved.

 

In my opinion he already invalidated his points for having used caps in the title of the post, "Slowed RECOVERY WHILE MOVING - NO THANKS" certainly is not a title that invites discussion.



#163
Sedrefilos

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I'm not playing the beta, but since I'm playing IWD enhanced right now, let me pop in and say my part. Doesen't matter much 7 days before launch anyway.

Combat in IWD is a huge pile of Kri-kri turds, for 2015 standards. I like the engagement mechanic as an idea and as I've seen it in action in videos (about the slow recovery wile moving I'm not that sure though) and if it is to be removed, a threat mechanic should be introduced so you can pin opponents one way or another. Having to chase them around and have your weakling party members run around like idiots is sooooooo frustrating and stoooooooopid. Reminded me of chasing games we played as kids.

I was engaged in a battle last night and I couldn't believe the stupidity of the combat philosophy of IWD (and all other IE game obviously). I don't see where people find tactics in those games. It's mostly select all -> attack target, unless you come across a more powerful group then you do what I described above. Damn!


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#164
DigitalCrack

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One thing I have not experienced in any playthrough of POE beta is dynamic battle motion. Like in BG2 there were a number of times I had to drop a frontliner back to save a my back row as well as retasking a frontliner to rush my enemies back row. Not that its impossible to doin POE it just doesnt help you to do so cause you have to eat so many penalties or burn through a bunch of abilities to do so.
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#165
damage991

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You've filed your report (incredibly rudely, as usual), and you're going to mod the game to your liking.


I don't see how the fact that I have stated that I am going to mod it out of the game changes a single thing. A bad mechanic is a bad mechanic.

It's also really stupid that it promotes standing still until you've recovered to use a movement based ability, because that is faster than moving and then using it.

 

Dont you regenerate stamina/endurance faster standing still vs running or doing something physical like swinging a sword?

 

I do.

 

Makes sense to me.



#166
armorb

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And to see the very same people start throwing around 'autism' as an insult and accusing others of operating in an 'echo-chamber' is just too much. Playing the victim as soon as you're called out on it is frankly all to predictable.

 

Said poster has also been known to spout off about "SJWs" - so that makes almost a perfect trifecta of #gamergate douchebagery....
 


Edited by armorb, 19 March 2015 - 12:52 PM.


#167
Sothpaw

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And to see the very same people start throwing around 'autism' as an insult and accusing others of operating in an 'echo-chamber' is just too much. Playing the victim as soon as you're called out on it is frankly all to predictable.

 

Said poster has also been known to spout off about "SJWs" - so that makes almost a perfect trifecta of #gamergate douchebagery....
 

 

Wouldn't lump SJW in with autism.  Making fun of a person's politics and making fun of a person's handicap are different levels of offense. 


Edited by Sothpaw, 19 March 2015 - 01:08 PM.

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#168
AndreaColombo

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I was engaged in a battle last night and I couldn't believe the stupidity of the combat philosophy of IWD (and all other IE game obviously). I don't see where people find tactics in those games. It's mostly select all -> attack target, unless you come across a more powerful group then you do what I described above. Damn!

 

You're not being serious, are you?


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#169
Luckmann

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@Luckmann: People screw up all the time and, being able to make amends for those mistakes and come out on top is only a good thing. It'd be really really bad if it had been "Damn! I made a mistake, oh well, now I have to reload the game". As for having to fail to achieve my situation? Not at all. My Barbarian, my Wizard, my Chanter, my Rogue and my Priest are all pretty mobile during combat even if I prepare, only the Fighter is static but has tools to become mobile (Knockdown).

Whilst you have a point that "People get better" that works in your disfavor as well, because eventually a game can become nothing but a calculator because you get so good at it. There is no dynamic in hitting an "exact number" every time. Thus min/max optimise is the least dynamic choice. Just saying strawman-ing tongue.png


Well yeah, some people do screw up all the time, and being able to make amends for those mistakes and eventually come out on top is definitely a good thing. And it would indeed be boring if small mistakes were unsalvegable. However, adding mechanics that increases the reliance on pre-combat positioning and assists in locking up combat does nothing to actually promote that, and, arguably, neither would the removal of those superfluous limitations.

It is really neither here nor there, so to say.

I do however not agree (and you say "can" become) that a game necessarily becomes nothing but a calculator because you get so good at it. In PoE, however, it is very easy to adhere to a formula of simple "tank and spank". You can move around a lot in combat if you really want to, especially in easier scenarios, but there's really no reason for you to do it. Knowing what you know, why would you consciously make decisions that run counter to a favourable outcome on your part?

This is not about min/max optimization at all (or the fact that PoE so blatantly rewards min/maxing), but about the employable tactics. If this was a matter of cheesing it, there might be a point to make about the unintended exploitation of game mechanics, but we are talking about completely reasonable actions that anyone can take at any time, and indeed will take once they learn the ropes.

Compare that to any major encounter in, say, BG2, where discounting cheese, you often have to react to the ongoing combat. Does this mean that you can't learn to deal with those specific encounters reliably or that they're hard? No. But it does mean that I can't usually work out a single tactic that will work without fault every single time, and where I'll actually have to see where the battle takes me.

Do I know how to beat Firkraag? Yes. Am I sure I'll beat him? Hell yeah. I know where the pieces go and I know what spells I need (no, not Spell Shield, that's a bug) and so forth, but once the **** hits the fan, boom, we have to see where this goes.

Spoiler

 

I'm not playing the beta, but since I'm playing IWD enhanced right now, let me pop in and say my part. Doesen't matter much 7 days before launch anyway.
Combat in IWD is a huge pile of Kri-kri turds, for 2015 standards. I like the engagement mechanic as an idea and as I've seen it in action in videos (about the slow recovery wile moving I'm not that sure though) and if it is to be removed, a threat mechanic should be introduced so you can pin opponents one way or another. Having to chase them around and have your weakling party members run around like idiots is sooooooo frustrating and stoooooooopid. Reminded me of chasing games we played as kids.
I was engaged in a battle last night and I couldn't believe the stupidity of the combat philosophy of IWD (and all other IE game obviously). I don't see where people find tactics in those games. It's mostly select all -> attack target, unless you come across a more powerful group then you do what I described above. Damn!


We probably see the tactics in it because we know how to pin opponents and don't chase loose opponents down, having our weakling party members run around like idiots.

But it's just a thought.

That being said, as I've pretty much cemented earlier in the thread, the IE games are not the end-all be-all, nor the epitome of tactical combat. However, it is odd to see how it's doing many things better than PoE currently does, because as I've said, the IE games had the issue that they were an adaptation of a turn-based ruleset not intended for real-time combat, whereas PoE had the advantage of being completely built for real-time combat; which is why it's doubly flabbergasting that you'd shoehorn turn-based PnP mechanics into it.

Like I also said earlier, I think it would've been better if Sawyer could've worked on a turn-based system like he wants, and let someone that wanted to work with a real-time combat system do that. That again being said, I must also make it clear that I still think that the idea of the Engagement system was a good one, but that it's execution is so bad and with so few (no?) redeeming qualities that I ask myself if it's even possible to salvage.

 

 

 


And to see the very same people start throwing around 'autism' as an insult and accusing others of operating in an 'echo-chamber' is just too much. Playing the victim as soon as you're called out on it is frankly all to predictable.

 

Said poster has also been known to spout off about "SJWs" - so that makes almost a perfect trifecta of #gamergate douchebagery....
 

 

 

"Hurf durf misogyny hurf durf gamergaters hurf durf such social justice. much ad homimen. wow."

Planet Earth to Armorb, Planet Earth to Armorb, come in Armorb. Please return our victim complex at once, no one man is meant to hold such power!


Edited by Luckmann, 19 March 2015 - 01:22 PM.

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#170
Luckmann

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Also, and I'm making this as a separate post just so it's as clear as possible, I still think that Pillars of Eternity is a good game.

It is good, perhaps even great, perhaps even amazing, and I truly look forward to exploring the world, and the story that Obsidian has made for us.

But it is so great in spite of it's shortcomings.

 

In spite of all these little things, things that can be improved upon in the future, things that can be expanded upon or changed, I still truly believe in the product itself.

In the potential arguments, that shouldn't get lost, and we're arguing for these things; more tactical depth, incentives to use different armours, rebalancing of attributes and so on, because we see that sheer potential that the game ultimately has, and will with no doubt in my mind still have in the future. And I would still recommend this game to anyone that asks, as it stands today, just a few days before release.

That is all.


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#171
Whipstitch

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In my opinion he already invalidated his points for having used caps in the title of the post, "Slowed RECOVERY WHILE MOVING - NO THANKS" certainly is not a title that invites discussion.


And in my opinion you've already invalidated your opinion by suggesting that decorum is something that can prove things false or unfalse.

Edited by Whipstitch, 19 March 2015 - 01:45 PM.

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#172
GreyFox

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Sad that it's going to take a mod to get this game's combat to even resemble fun.

 

Such a terrible addition so late, and they really are gonna deserve any negative reviews they get if people find the combat boring/bad.

 

If the goal was to make combat worse than 15 year old games, well then they've succeeded.



#173
Lord Wafflebum

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In Sensuki's defense, it's hard to make such a massive tonal shift between the OE forums and the 'dex. You can tell when I've recently been on the codex because my posts here are way, way more aggressive. 

 

That said, I think this thread has gotten way too off topic. Are people still arguing that movement in combat needs MORE of a disincentive? I think movement in combat is punishing enough with the disengagement system; anything more is far too much. Admittedly, that's just my opinion, or has my use of capital letters made my opinion moot?

 

I should probably be banned.


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#174
pswendel

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Sad that it's going to take a mod to get this game's combat to even resemble fun.

Such a terrible addition so late, and they really are gonna deserve any negative reviews they get if people find the combat boring/bad.

If the goal was to make combat worse than 15 year old games, well then they've succeeded.


Harsh criticism from a zealot's love. The only burden this places on my play style is save scumming if my initial static set-up was poorly situated. No different than IE baselines in that regard.

#175
GreyFox

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In Sensuki's defense, it's hard to make such a massive tonal shift between the OE forums and the 'dex. You can tell when I've recently been on the codex because my posts here are way, way more aggressive. 

 

That said, I think this thread has gotten way too off topic. Are people still arguing that movement in combat needs MORE of a disincentive? I think movement in combat is punishing enough with the disengagement system; anything more is far too much. Admittedly, that's just my opinion, or has my use of capital letters made my opinion moot?

 

I should probably be banned.

 

Disengagement attacks are more than enough to punish movement.


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#176
pswendel

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In Sensuki's defense, it's hard to make such a massive tonal shift between the OE forums and the 'dex. You can tell when I've recently been on the codex because my posts here are way, way more aggressive.

That said, I think this thread has gotten way too off topic. Are people still arguing that movement in combat needs MORE of a disincentive? I think movement in combat is punishing enough with the disengagement system; anything more is far too much. Admittedly, that's just my opinion, or has my use of capital letters made my opinion moot?

I should probably be banned.

Disengagement attacks are more than enough to punish movement.
I'm curious if anybody feels that the disengagement trait bonuses are even worth taking over other perks.

Edit: my punishment in game for this choice is to basically never move when engaged.

Personally I will not be taking disengagement bonuses because I feel there are more valuable options, where it seems as if obsidian believes this is a game play value to have a movement based penalty offshot by player selected abilities. What if the ability instead ALLOWED a character to disengage in combat without penalty instead of adding +12 to DR. Wouldn't that bring the system into alignment with playstyles? I'd take that ability for a front line dps or offtank.

Edited by pswendel, 19 March 2015 - 02:17 PM.

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#177
Lord Wafflebum

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Yeah, I thought the disengagement system point was to partially discourage moving around a lot (or is more currently the case, moving around at all). I truly don't understand for balance or play reasons why another disincentive needed to be added.

 

I really wish this thread was less hostile so Brandon or Bobby would say why it was put in, but I assume they don't want to bottom out their self esteem for the week quite yet. Maybe Josh will talk to Sensuki about it during their heart-to-hearts on SA :)


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#178
Lord Wafflebum

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snip

Disengagement attacks are more than enough to punish movement.
I'm curious if anybody feels that the disengagement trait bonuses are even worth taking over other perks.

Edit: my punishment in game for this choice is to basically never move when engaged.

Personally I will not be taking disengagement bonuses because I feel there are more valuable options, where it seems as if obsidian believes this is a game play value to have a movement based penalty offshot by player selected abilities. What if the ability instead ALLOWED a character to disengage in combat without penalty instead of adding +12 to DR. Wouldn't that bring the system into alignment with playstyles? I'd take that ability for a front line dps or offtank.

 

Those very much reflect my feelings. I don't take anything that gives me disengagement bonuses, because it ends up being a waste to NOT take talents that boost combat efficacy. 



#179
dukefx

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IE games have no such things. In PoE there are so many ifs that rarely ever happen, and when you try to make them happen you get a pie thrown right into your face. I honestly don't understand the logic behind it.



#180
Adam Brennecke

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The recovery timer stopping when moving was in the first backer beta back in August and has been in since afaik. Designed to prevent kiting in combat. 


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