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SLOWED RECOVERY WHILE MOVING - NO THANKS


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#41
Zed

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With all these penalties to melee, and the way armor works (heavier armor - slower attacks) – is there anything that makes up for playing an armored knight/paladin-style damage dealer? Do they deal inherently more damage from melee weapons or are their abilities/traits/whatevs better?

 

I was planning to play a ranged rogue anyway (I would want to play ranged ranger like my first BG playthrough, but rangers in PoE seem... weird, and I don't like how pets work), but I'm just curious.


Edited by Zed, 19 March 2015 - 05:32 AM.


#42
Osvir

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@Sensuki: Great :) adds more tactics to consider, like I said in my other post.

When you play chess you don't think about your immediate move, you think 3-4* moves ahead, or, well, if you want to be good at chess you think 3-4* moves ahead.

The only issue I see here in terms of that is that... there is no movement indicator or movement feedback like there is in Divinity: Original Sin with Action Points. "How many action points does it take to run over there" could perhaps be translated to "How many seconds does it take to run over there" or "How much recovery time do I lose going over there" when hovering the mouse button over a location.

*More like 20 moves ahead xD but Pillars of Eternity isn't chess, so 3-4 moves are more representative.


Edited by Osvir, 19 March 2015 - 05:48 AM.


#43
Luckmann

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Fact that nobody noticed it for that long and it took you of all people (because you really do hardcore testing I mean) to see it clearly after all that time indicate that it's anything but a hot potato, and even an issue whatsoever.
I mean I clocked 5 full Path of the Damned playthroughs since 480 release, with lots of melee characters and ranged needing to move (chanter bowman) and that didn't stick out like a sore thumb at any point whatsoever.

The length of time it takes people to find something really doesn't matter at all. If I was stealing money from you for years but it was such a small amount it took you all that time before you realized does that mean anything at all? Of course not. There's a lot of godawful arguments going on in here and ad hominems. 
 
This "I didn't notice it argument" is not a reason to keep it. If anything it is a reason to get rid of it. It's not doing anything except slightly screwing players in a way they may not even notice.... Great mechanic?


It's OK if I key your car as long as you don't notice.

Right?

Spoiler

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#44
Sensuki

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With all these penalties to melee, and the way armor works (heavier armor - slower attacks) – is there anything that makes up for playing an armored knight/paladin-style damage dealer? Do they deal inherently more damage from melee weapons or are their abilities/traits/whatevs better?
 
I was planning to play a ranged rogue anyway (I would want to play ranged ranger like my first BG playthrough, but rangers in PoE seem... weird, and I don't like how pets work), but I'm just curious.


Well, not a moving one anyway. You'd be going into the thick of things with Plate armor and soaking hits for the party while everyone else gets it done.

It's OK if I key your car as long as you don't notice.


It is a bit like spitting in your coffee, isn't it ?

Edited by Sensuki, 19 March 2015 - 05:36 AM.


#45
Striped_Wolf

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With all these penalties to melee, and the way armor works (heavier armor - slower attacks) – is there anything that makes up for playing an armored knight/paladin-style damage dealer? Do they deal inherently more damage from melee weapons or are their abilities/traits/whatevs better?

 

You get to be in the thick of the action and hit stuff with your sword, and live to tell about it. You can break engagement with several talents if you want to move around cautiously, and you can sprint/charge with other talents if you want to be fast.



#46
mutonizer

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Keying cars, stealing money, spitting in coffee...

Geesh, you guys REALLY want to move around like maniacs don't you? original.gif
I mean I don't mind the change but I don't want anyone to go kill themselves because of this or something...

...Damnit, extremists always win! :/

Edited by mutonizer, 19 March 2015 - 05:42 AM.


#47
Sensuki

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I don't like restricted or penalized movement by default systems in the game. Total War - sure, fine. But not this.
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#48
Luckmann

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With all these penalties to melee, and the way armor works (heavier armor - slower attacks) – is there anything that makes up for playing an armored knight/paladin-style damage dealer? Do they deal inherently more damage from melee weapons or are their abilities/traits/whatevs better?
 
I was planning to play a ranged rogue anyway (I would want to play ranged ranger like my first BG playthrough, but rangers in PoE seem... weird, and I don't like how pets work), but I'm just curious.

 

Nothing. Ranged DPS is objectively better than Melee DPS and the only thing you want to have in armoured plate is the tank. Classes are balanced independent of the various mechanics in the game, which is great for build variety, but it also assumes that those various mechanics work well together. And.. they don't, really.

 

So where one game would go with the assumption that Paladins will be wearing plate and therefore be gimped when doing damage (due to the pre-existing issues of the armour system itself), they could up the Paladin's damage to have him remain competitive despite his core concept, but PoE makes no such assumption about the Paladin, and he is free to wear anything from Clothes (which is not the same thing as robes, for unclear reasons) to Full Plate.

I do not consider that in and of itself a flaw (I in fact consider one of the very best features of PoE) but it does mean that the mechanics, as it stands, is all kinds of messed up in relation to presented concepts and pretty basic assumptions. For example, in PoE, Barbarians does amazingly with Intellect, and if you want to play a damage-dealing Paladin (instead of a tank), you not only will do terribly with Resolve (which you'd otherwise assume to be a prime attribute for Paladins) but you will also be objectively better off dressed in regular clothes than in full plate.

But there's threads flying around that can fill you in a lot on that, let's try to not derail this one. :lol:



#49
mrmonocle

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this was done to nerf kiting and i'm totally fine with it since the AI is dump. What else is there to be done?



#50
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But it doesn't even remotely address kiting. It makes it easier

 

In every isometric real time game that has large maps, ranged enemies and different movement speeds - you can kite. You can add as many detrimental systems to the game to try and prevent it, but they usually end up only harming other elements of the gameplay, and not really addressing kiting at all.

Total War actually addresses it fairly well with realism - units get tired after running :p and run slower. This is not Total War though, it's an Infinity Engine style RPG.


Edited by Sensuki, 19 March 2015 - 05:52 AM.

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#51
Shdy314

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That's an interesting assertion mrmonocle. Which dev told you that? Im wondering if its simply a miscommunication. Did someone think they were fixing a bug putting it back in? Who knows? None of us unless a dev decides to chime in.



#52
erragal

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All goes back to abstraction of a fantasy combat scenario to best represent logical outcomes.

It's obvious there's a subset of people interested in this game who have only ever fought anything in a virtual environment.

Spend a few hundred hours watching professional mma, boxing, fight a few martial arts matches yourself, hell go have a sit down conversation with a local SCA member.

You know what never works in a real fight? Running backwards while swinging a weapon weakly at the person chasing you. Biophysics and momentum are both against you in that regard.

There's a sentiment that combat in a fantasy conflict reproduction should be highly reactive. This just doesn't reflect what fighting is about at all. Tactics involve predicting what your opponent will do and -beating them to the spot-. Position is established in advance because changing position is a tell: you're giving the opponent the ability to predict your future position and telegraphing your intentions.

The poster who suggested Lol or Dota is on the right track: I would go play a bit of a moba. Smite isn't bad either. It'll allow you to realize how terrible your tactical mind is when 13 year old outsmart you and then you'll understand that you're not asking for the game to be more tactical...you just want it to be exploitable.

Oh and ty based Sawyer. I knew from your hardcore New Vegas mod that you understand what makes a great game. Keep doing what you do.
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#53
Sensuki

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I think he's just making an assumption. As far as I know the slowing of recovery has not been spoken about at all. They don't publish a list of changes in patches, and probably deliberately too.

 

 

 

The poster who suggested Lol or Dota is on the right track: I would go play a bit of a moba. Smite isn't bad either. It'll allow you to realize how terrible your tactical mind is when 13 year old outsmart you and then you'll understand that you're not asking for the game to be more tactical...you just want it to be exploitable.

 

Oh and ty based Sawyer. I knew from your hardcore New Vegas mod that you understand what makes a great game. Keep doing what you do.

 

Who is this post aimed at? It doesn't really have anything to do with the discussion other than to say that you think kiting is derp. 

I also play DotA 2, and have played DotA since 2004. DotA is the most tactical game there is. It also has no movement penalties, and a similar recovery system to Pillars of Eternity.


Edited by Sensuki, 19 March 2015 - 05:57 AM.


#54
Shevek

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Isnt this kind of good because it increases the value of character development choices that improve movement speed in combat? Without this, such talents and abilities are largely meaningless.

Edited by Shevek, 19 March 2015 - 05:58 AM.

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#55
Sensuki

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But ... it doesn't?

You're not going to take Fast Runner to offset this penalty, because the difference it makes is well probably less than 50ms or something each time you move to the next target - if that. It's really unimpactful.

I actually am not sure that it makes fast moving worthwhile - I actually think it might be a negative - gonna test it.

 

Okay so, it's useless for movement based abilities, because after you make an attack, you go into recovery if you move you'll be slowed down from using that ability - so for Barbarian Wild Sprint, for example - you should NOT move until your recovery has ticked down and THEN you should move after Wild Sprint has ticked down, because you'll get to your destination faster than moving after you attack (and you'll have no recovery remaining because it's a no recovery ability) ROFL ROFL

How DUMB IS THAT LOL


Edited by Sensuki, 19 March 2015 - 06:17 AM.

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#56
Shdy314

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@Sensuki

Erragal just wanted us to know how awesome he is because he knows all about "real" fighting. It wasn't anything but a humble brag.


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#57
mutonizer

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I also play DotA 2, and have played DotA since 2004. DotA is the most tactical game there is. It also has no movement penalties, and a similar recovery system to Pillars of Eternity.


It's a twitch game first and foremost though.
You can have all the tactical mastery you want on paper, fastest twitch will just overwhelm you every time by moving faster, reacting instantly and whatnot. Not saying there isn't a massive dose of tactical play added in and it's sometimes very impressive, but that's by far not the prominent aspect of it, unless all twitch skills are equal among allies/enemies.
Love watching pro people play it (like any twitch game really, bit like sport in a way) but I HATE playing twitch games personally :)

And I REALLY don't want PoE to get closer to DOTA and whatnot lol. Personal preference and all that, but the further away from it they can get, the happier I'll be.

#58
erragal

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Something else: It's important to keep in mind that deflection and reflexes defenses are numerical values designed to represent the ducking/diving/rolling/circling/foot by foot repositioning that occurs in micro moments during combat. That's why this is a pnp based system and not an action rpg. It's not intended in pnp that players need to have 1 to 1 evasion of enemy attacks with mobility ; that is an exploit built into the IE engine which simply was not intended. It certainly circumvents the bounds of AD&D.
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#59
Shevek

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It might be interesting to edit those abilities/talents to give them components which also reduce the recovery speed penalty (like shot on the run). So, someone affected by zealous charge that also has fast runner would have a negligible penalty. I dunno, I see this as an opportunity to make certain charactr development choices more meaningful.

#60
Shdy314

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That's why this is a pnp based system and not an action rpg. It certainly circumvents the bounds of AD&D.

Maybe if you spent more time fighting in virtual environments you'd know what you were talking about. PoE is not based on a pnp system though it certainly has a few DnD touchstones.

For example engagement is just attacks of opportunity in 3rd edition DnD and it is also impossible to take a move action and full attack(usually) in 3rd edition. Sound familiar?


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