Jump to content

Welcome to Obsidian Forum Community
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

SLOWED RECOVERY WHILE MOVING - NO THANKS


  • Please log in to reply
354 replies to this topic

#21
Sensuki

Sensuki

    Subway Apathist of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 9965 posts
  • Location:Australia
  • Steam:STEAM_0:1:1229809
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
Shot on the Run was created to deal with the ranged move recovery mult that was added into the game in v301/v333 I forget which.

Fast Runner doesn't decrease your recovery time.

Basically what they've done Osvir is add a flat penalty for everyone when moving regardless of what talents you pick.

I'm not playing with it. Just more bad design decisions we have to rip out of the game on release day.
  • GreyFox, Luckmann, Gorionsson and 1 other like this

#22
Tartantyco

Tartantyco

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 787 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer

If your battles in PoE are static, then it's because of the way you are playing the game. At most, I might have three party members who remain mostly static, with the rest moving around to stop flanking enemies, flank the enemy themselves, engage priority targets, or position themselves to better use their abilities. If I want to get out of an engagement, there's loads of abilities that help me do that.

 

I don't quite know what you're trying to say with your "herp-derp RTwP" comments, but that is pretty irrelevant to the issue. And again, it's inspired by, not a clone of, the IE games. I played those games just as much as anyone else here, that argument just isn't going to cut it. You don't get to define what an IE game is for everyone else.


  • Striped_Wolf likes this

#23
Zack Fair

Zack Fair

    (3) Conjurer

  • Members
  • 135 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

I'm sure that with this well thought counter argument. The Image with rioters with pitchforks and general tone you will convince a lot of people that you have something meaningfull to add to this instad of "I DON'T LIKE IT".

 

Good job. RPG Codex: doesn't scale to your level. Instead just shouts angrily about things it doesn't like.

 

 

Oh shut up. He told his reasons in the post, so why don't you just learn to read before complaining about the Codex or Sensuki.


  • GreyFox, Luckmann, Gorionsson and 3 others like this

#24
Sensuki

Sensuki

    Subway Apathist of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 9965 posts
  • Location:Australia
  • Steam:STEAM_0:1:1229809
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

You don't get to define what an IE game is for everyone else.


And neither do you.

I am stating my opinion, and there are people here (as evident in the thread) that agree with me.

My battles are not completely static, but the game promotes playing statically. If you're asking me how I play you probably haven't watched me play either game. There's already enough penalties to movement as is, adding more is just hilariously bad IMO.

Most of the developers prefer turn-based combat, and play P&P. A lot of the decisions they make cannot help be influenced by thinking of how things work in either of these styles of game. IMO for real-time gameplay you should design around the benefits of the style - and in my opinion this is the exact opposite.

Out of EVERYTHING in the game - combat feel is the thing I feel the most strongly about, and this is a smack right in the jaw in that regard.

Edited by Sensuki, 19 March 2015 - 04:37 AM.

  • GreyFox, Zack Fair, Luckmann and 2 others like this

#25
Luckmann

Luckmann

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 3497 posts
  • Location:The Scanian Flatlands

[...]

In essence: I don't have a problem with it, but thanks for the heads up still, it'll be something I'll consider in my positioning, movement and strategy/tactics in combat (I view it as another ingredient to consider). I don't see how it takes away from any tactics whatsoever.


It reduces the tactical depth because it makes moving increasingly disadvantageous. And it's already incredibly disadvantageous, due to the current Engagement mechanics. The game is already 90% positioning before combat starts, and there's very little reactivity or adaptation going on.

While I can understand the sentiment that "it's another variable to consider", that assumes that there will be situations where you will want to move. But in the current game, even without this, you really, really don't want to move. This just adds to that to really cement the static combat.

In order for there to be a tradeoff, there first has to be something to trade. And there just isn't. You properly position yourself in Stealth, BLITZKRIEG, and then you lump all your melee and all the enemy melee together in a large, static, unmoving blob, and then you all stand there until the encounter is over or until you *have* to move (such as when all other opponents are dead and you're taking down the stragglers in the back).

In the IE games, there were lots of movement going on, and you had to take decisions based on what happened, what the enemies did, "Oh crap they ran past me up and they're wailing on Imoen all of a sudden", and so on. That just doesn't happen in PoE. I'm not lauding the IE games for an amazing tactical depth here, I'm just using it as an example as something that was objectively better in this instance.
 
You already depend so much on pre-battle positioning in PoE and you already have so little incentive to even consider moving. The combat is already incredibly static and the melee almost completely immobile. And there's already way too little reactivity.

I think that Sensuki's frustration isn't necessarily with this one mechanic, but rather that it just detracts even further on tactical play, especially when taking the other pre-existing mechanics (which are already detracting from tactical depth in other or similar ways).
 

And neither do you.

I am stating my opinion, and there are people here (as evident in the thread) that agree with me.

My battles are not completely static, but the game promotes playing statically. If you're asking me how I play you probably haven't watched me play either game. There's already enough penalties to movement as is, adding more is just hilariously bad IMO.

Most of the developers prefer turn-based combat, and play P&P. A lot of the decisions they make cannot help be influenced by thinking of how things work in either of these styles of game. IMO for real-time gameplay you should design around the benefits of the style - and in my opinion this is the exact opposite.

Out of EVERYTHING in the game - combat feel is the thing I feel the most strongly about, and this is a smack right in the jaw in that regard.

 

I think it's flabbergasting that the IE games, a series actually molded after turn-based PnP, in many ways outclasses and outperforms a stand-alone title made, with it's rules custom-tailored, for the expressed purpose of playing in real-time.

I'm not saying that the IE games were necessary better in all ways, when push comes to shove, but as you say, here we have something that has the chance to be entirely designed around the benefits of the style, having those potential benefits be thrown to the wind in order to make something play more like a turn-based game. It's very strange.

I really like turn-based. I really do. Always have. But let's not pretend that there's not some really big wonkyness going on that can't be rectified with the turn-based format. And now there's a chance to make something that is actually reactive, tactical and strategical in ways turn-based just can't really do, and it's forced into a very odd mould.

This decision is just bizarre. It's not the first decision that's bizarre and it's not the first decision to be bad, and many other decisions are at least explainable by "We didn't have time to make it right, maybe in a sequel or expansion". Honestly much of that is just life. But this decision is certainly the most bizarre that I've seen yet, I think.


Edited by Luckmann, 19 March 2015 - 04:51 AM.

  • Sensuki, Mr. Magniloquent, Gorionsson and 2 others like this

#26
Shdy314

Shdy314

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 781 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

I wish you hadn't put in your argument that you want it to play more like an RTS. That really becomes a distraction to the fact you aren't wrong about this.

 

Whether you hate or like engagement it's a simple concept. If enemies engage you in melee and you want to run away from them you are going to eat an attack. It's an attack of opportunity and most of us know 3E DnD so whatever. If the goal is to make movement on the battlefield dangerous then whatever it "makes sense." People can argue whether that's a stupid goal or not.

 

What is objectively awful is to punish movement in TWO ways. Obsidian can make your actions take longer because youre moving or they can make you risks attacks for moving around but doing both is terrible.


  • Luckmann, Jotra and wolfstriked like this

#27
Sensuki

Sensuki

    Subway Apathist of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 9965 posts
  • Location:Australia
  • Steam:STEAM_0:1:1229809
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
I don't think that putting in that I want it to play more like an RTS is a bad thing because the Infinity Engine games were built on the Battleground Infinity Engine, which was an RTS Prototype, and they feel a lot like an RTS-RPG.

It might be distracting to some people who come from the opposite end of the spectrum and prefer turn-based combat and "RPG Combat" if that is a thing.

THE *BEST* thing about the Infinity Engine games was the combat feel. No Attack of Opportunity crap. Movement and actions came at the same cost (which many D&D players hated, because you couldn't move and then do 5 attacks per round). Perfect transition from something like Warcraft 2 or AoE2.

What is objectively awful is to punish movement in TWO ways. Obsidian can make your actions take longer because youre moving or they can make you risks attacks for moving around but doing both is terrible.


Agreed. It's a double whammy.

Edited by Sensuki, 19 March 2015 - 04:59 AM.

  • Luckmann, Gorionsson, Malekith and 1 other like this

#28
mutonizer

mutonizer

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 307 posts

This isn't about ranged characters, this is about melee characters. If you want to know how easy reloading is while moving with a bow - check this out


Oh..please..not that clown again. Ever seen an army composed on knife jugglers and trick-shot artists? Yea, me neither original.gif
 

I'm fighting against this because it's not fun, not because of the opposite effects it may have on kiting melee characters.

 
Yea...fun isn't a valid reason though, not in anything. There are more than 6 billions kind of "fun" on the planet so not sure how you want to do anything based on that.
All I care about is:

  • Does it make sense within the context: Think it does, they clearly want to make the battlefields more stable overall. I like it personally since I like the concept of "battle lines", be it in tabletop or cRPGs as I feel it's more "realistic" (within the context that is). You might not like it, that's cool too.
  • Does it add an interesting mechanic:  Makes you moving around an actual choice with consequences, which I think is interesting.
  • Does it feel artificial: Not really, on the contrary. Moving at full speed while a battle is going on should have consequences, the degree of which is of course up to debate. I've played with 480 a lot and while I never directly asked myself the actual question, it didn't stand out as an issue, which is good enough for me since I do move around when required (and only then).

 

THE *BEST* thing about the Infinity Engine games was the combat feel. No Attack of Opportunity crap. Movement and actions came at the same cost (which many D&D players hated, because you couldn't move and then do 5 attacks per round). Perfect transition from something like Warcraft 2 or AoE2.

That's you though. Personally I think that's actually the worse thing. If I wanted to play DOTA or LOL, I'd go play DOTA or LOL. That's very personal though of course so as usual, to each his own.


Edited by mutonizer, 19 March 2015 - 05:06 AM.

  • virgi26 and Answermancer like this

#29
Tartantyco

Tartantyco

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 787 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer

 

You don't get to define what an IE game is for everyone else.


And neither do you.

 

Yeah, that was kind of my point... It's a bottom-of-the-barrel argument that's worth ****-all, and using it is pretty weak.

 

The question you should be asking yourself is, do the penalties outweigh the value of mobility? In my opinion, the answer to that is hell yes. I don't see the game promoting static play.



#30
Shdy314

Shdy314

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 781 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

Yes people reacting in haste with "it's an RPG" is part of the distraction but even more importantly it also turns it into the millionth argument about engagement rather than focusing on what is really a separate issue.



#31
Sensuki

Sensuki

    Subway Apathist of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 9965 posts
  • Location:Australia
  • Steam:STEAM_0:1:1229809
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
I don't think that it's intentionally done to force people to play it like "Medieval Total War 6 man party". It's done for some other reason - it playing like that is just the side-effect. It's not only horrible but it's anti-Infinity Engine.

It's not an interesting mechanic because doesn't add any choice, it just punishes choices. It punishes mobile builds, and punishes you for using anything other than the same clump positional tactic. This is bad.

I think it does feel artificial, and definitely not realistic either but that doesn't really matter.

Yes people reacting in haste with "it's an RPG" is part of the distraction but even more importantly it also turns it into the millionth argument about engagement rather than focusing on what is really a separate issue.


I haven't seen any argument about Engagement in the thread so far. I don't intend to argue with anyone about it either, I intend to argue about movement slowing recovery time - with equal fervor, but probably less vitriol.

Edited by Sensuki, 19 March 2015 - 05:06 AM.

  • Luckmann likes this

#32
Osvir

Osvir

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 3799 posts
  • Location:Stockholm, SE
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

Shot on the Run was created to deal with the ranged move recovery mult that was added into the game in v301/v333 I forget which.

Fast Runner doesn't decrease your recovery time.

Basically what they've done Osvir is add a flat penalty for everyone when moving regardless of what talents you pick.

I'm not playing with it. Just more bad design decisions we have to rip out of the game on release day.

Fast Runner decreases the time it takes for you to get from point A to point B. Meaning, your Slowed Recovery will be in effect for less time (The Chanter also has a +Movement Speed Chant).


Edited by Osvir, 19 March 2015 - 05:07 AM.


#33
Sensuki

Sensuki

    Subway Apathist of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 9965 posts
  • Location:Australia
  • Steam:STEAM_0:1:1229809
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

Fast Runner decreases the time it takes for you to get from point A to point B. Meaning, your Slowed Recovery will be in effect for less time.


Oh yeah, that's true. Either way, Fast Runner adds one movement point I think, the difference will almost always be next to nothing. You would most definitely not pick the ability to offset movement recovery slowing because the benefit you get from it is tiiiiiiny.

The only time I've ever chosen Fast Runner was on the character I use to kite enemies when I have the rest with ranged off to the side. I think Naumtree uses it with his kiting chanter build too, either way - it's used to get away, not to offset this. It hurts the characters that make many small movements in combat the most.

What they do doesn't really affect me - we are removing it. Simple as that. However I'm angered that this was not broached because these kind of things are a hot potato, they tried to sneak it by us without saying anything.

I believe it was also in v435 - so it's been in the game for a while. I think they added it in over the Christmas break. I thought movement recovery was slowed in the last patch, but when I checked the NotifyAttackComplete code in AttackBase I couldn't find anything that was doing it. Looked in the wrong class lol. It's strange that they handle recovery time calculations at two different places in the code though.

Edited by Sensuki, 19 March 2015 - 05:13 AM.

  • Gairnulf likes this

#34
iampolo

iampolo

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 14 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

sawyer.gif

Im still waiting for a good reason why this has been implemented.



#35
Luckmann

Luckmann

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 3497 posts
  • Location:The Scanian Flatlands

Fast Runner decreases the time it takes for you to get from point A to point B. Meaning, your Slowed Recovery will be in effect for less time.


Oh yeah, that's true. Either way, Fast Runner adds one movement point I think, the difference will almost always be next to nothing. You would most definitely not pick the ability to offset movement recovery slowing because the benefit you get from it is tiiiiiiny.

The only time I've ever chosen Fast Runner was on the character I use to kite enemies when I have the rest with ranged off to the side. I think Naumtree uses it with his kiting chanter build too, either way - it's used to get away, not to offset this. It hurts the characters that make many small movements in combat the most.

What they do doesn't really affect me - we are removing it. Simple as that. However I'm angered that this was not broached because these kind of things are a hot potato, they tried to sneak it by us without saying anything.

 
Thinking about it, it actually dissuades you from taking Fast Runner (a Talent that is already not very good, in a Talent group you usually don't really want to spend talents in) simply because you're penalized when moving anyway. Even if the effect was small before, the effect from Fast Runner was at least constant, but now the effect of Fast Runner will only matter when you do something that will actively screw you.

And as you say, it will hurt those that take many small movements in combat the most, and I'll argue that most movement in combat consists of small movements. The difference Fast Runner will do in regards to the slowed recovery rate when moving would be abysmal, to say the least.

sawyer.gif

Im still waiting for a good reason why this has been implemented.


Pay $10 to hit him up in the echo chamber and you might get your reason.

Edited by Luckmann, 19 March 2015 - 05:17 AM.

  • Namutree likes this

#36
mutonizer

mutonizer

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 307 posts

However I'm angered that this was not broached because these kind of things are a hot potato, they tried to sneak it by us without saying anything.


Fact that nobody noticed it for that long and it took you of all people (because you really do hardcore testing I mean) to see it clearly after all that time indicate that it's anything but a hot potato, and even an issue whatsoever.
I mean I clocked 5 full Path of the Damned playthroughs since 480 release, with lots of melee characters and ranged needing to move (chanter bowman) and that didn't stick out like a sore thumb at any point whatsoever.

#37
Sensuki

Sensuki

    Subway Apathist of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 9965 posts
  • Location:Australia
  • Steam:STEAM_0:1:1229809
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
I did notice it, and I looked for it in the code but couldn't find anything.

Most of the testing I do is looking for bugs, you'd be surprised how little actual playing I do. I think about 90% of my game time is quickly loading a save and testing for bugs on the starting encounter against Medreth or in no encounter at all (usually UI bugs).

Also recovery bars are no longer shown unless you're holding TAB or you have that unit selected.

By the way - in the last patch, Dexterity was bugged so characters that had higher than 10 Dexterity had slower recovery time instead of faster recovery time. The BB Rogue, BB Priest and BB Wizard all have higher than 10 Dexterity from memory, so it would have been a lot harder for people to notice in the last build because of that.

Edited by Sensuki, 19 March 2015 - 05:26 AM.

  • Luckmann and Namutree like this

#38
Osvir

Osvir

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 3799 posts
  • Location:Stockholm, SE
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

You're making it sound as if it "resets recovery when moving" Sensuki.

I just took down Medreth on Path of the Damned trying to figure out how much it messed with my playstyle, and, I couldn't find it. I didn't feel much impact even when my characters moved around either.

Then again, I can't think of a time where it has been easy to run around and move around, because all enemies run/move so fast (Curse you, run animation!). Only when I did a Solo Rogue with Fast Runner could I run faster than the enemy.



#39
Sensuki

Sensuki

    Subway Apathist of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 9965 posts
  • Location:Australia
  • Steam:STEAM_0:1:1229809
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
It makes a difference - one unarmored guy with a sword moving a few metres in the game slows your recovery down for about a second on top of the 1H penalty. Imagine that as a 2H attack in Plate armor, or a 3 second cast time Wizard spell.

Edited by Sensuki, 19 March 2015 - 05:26 AM.


#40
Shdy314

Shdy314

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 781 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

Fact that nobody noticed it for that long and it took you of all people (because you really do hardcore testing I mean) to see it clearly after all that time indicate that it's anything but a hot potato, and even an issue whatsoever.

I mean I clocked 5 full Path of the Damned playthroughs since 480 release, with lots of melee characters and ranged needing to move (chanter bowman) and that didn't stick out like a sore thumb at any point whatsoever.

The length of time it takes people to find something really doesn't matter at all. If I was stealing money from you for years but it was such a small amount it took you all that time before you realized does that mean anything at all? Of course not. There's a lot of godawful arguments going on in here and ad hominems. 

 

This "I didn't notice it argument" is not a reason to keep it. If anything it is a reason to get rid of it. It's not doing anything except slightly screwing players in a way they may not even notice.... Great mechanic?


  • GreyFox, Luckmann, Sensuki and 1 other like this




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users