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SLOWED RECOVERY WHILE MOVING - NO THANKS


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#341
crackwise

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So I've realized from lephys's arguments, that we have a much, much stronger statement.

 

We need to reduce kiting.   Kiting is essentially a ranged versus melee problem.    As we can see,  Sensuki can easily kite with a ranged character.  

 

What we need is to eliminate the reaction slow for melee characters, so they are more able to hit those scum, fleeing, kiting  errr...

 

does the AI kite?

 

Dang.

 

Actually enemies who are kiters CAN be a real pain in the ass, and it is very hard to fight them especially in a system where there is stamina. The most annoying enemies I have ever seen in a game are those bloody midgets in Diablo 2 which you see in the jungle from Act III. Yeah, those ones who shoot darts from blowpipes and then run away the instant you hit them. I might have aged like 2 years due to sheer frustration when trying to finish Act III, lol.

 

Back on topic: Kiting with ranged weapons is actually a legitimate tactic, and was done extensively in history by light skirmish troops to harass and loosen up enemy formations. (e.g. Roman era javelin throwers, medieval horse archers, gunpowder era dragoons etc.)  BUT in real life you cannot run around all the time, because you will eventually get winded and fatigued.

 

As Sensuki and others have also mentioned, the only way to prevent kiting is to introduce some stamina system, it may be too late for that now though. Actually, some of you may remember, I had been advocating two different combat movement types such as walking and running, even before the beta was released. Running would cost stamina and would risk engagement attacks. Walking would be slow repositioning without turning your back to your engaged target. We would have probably had much less trouble if such a system was chosen at the first place, I think.


Edited by crackwise, 22 March 2015 - 03:14 PM.


#342
Gairnulf

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How can movement be a tactical decision if the penalties are making it the worst course of action?
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#343
Hassat Hunter

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By making movement around the battlefield an actual choice with risk. You want the better ground, is it worth the trade-off, yes/no. Rather than just mindless 'yes, move'.

 

IMO combat is all about making choices between pro's and con's of the moment. If there are no con's, it's not tactically interestingly to add, auto-go-best stuff is best to avoid to make an interesting system.



#344
SomberSight

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By making movement around the battlefield an actual choice with risk. You want the better ground, is it worth the trade-off, yes/no. Rather than just mindless 'yes, move'.

 

IMO combat is all about making choices between pro's and con's of the moment. If there are no con's, it's not tactically interestingly to add, auto-go-best stuff is best to avoid to make an interesting system.

Regarding your first point:

 

Disclaimer: I haven't tested any of the more recent beta builds, and have not familiarized myself with the intricacies of the recovery/engagement mechanics. However, I have an objection to make against the idea of "movement recovery".

 

When I'm in the middle of combat (regardless of game), I don't want my movement decisions (be it regarding angles of attack, range adjustments, management of cooldowns/health, blocking of enemies, or anything else) to be slanted toward remaining stationary: That is already the ideal state which allows for the highest DPS, and in a situation without risk of character death it's a complete non-decision. By penalizing moving, an open-ended action that could be made for any number of reasons, the amount of variation in combat interaction will indubitably shrink.

 

In general, mechanics that are introduced solely to compensate for the shortcomings of a game should never punish the player in any way: If you do, you are creating breeding ground for player resentment of the game. If, in addition to this, the mechanic is so obtuse and hard to identify that the player can conceivably interpret it as a bug, then it is just that in all but name.This appears to be such a mechanic: It can't hide behind any claim of authenticity, pacing, balance, or any other reason for being I can think of, and in the video provided in the OP I had to take the narrators word for what was going on, in spite of spending several hours with this game.

 

In short, I'm quite certain I will be bothered by this mechanic if it is at all noticeable.

 

By "auto-go-best stuff", I assume you're referring to kiting. That being the case, let me try to qualify the scenarios in which kiting would be beneficial:

1. Kiting as a melee character is currently impossible according to Sensuki, because of the engagement system.

2. Kiting vs an enemy that is faster than your own character is also futile regardless of weapon type.  (I'm assuming here that characters can actually attack opponents they've caught up to.)

3. Kiting versus an enemy with range can be self detrimental, depending on speed, range, damage, and attack rate discrepancy.(It should not be hard to create ranged creatures that are practically immune to kiting by adjusting these values)

4. Kiting in a scenario where you have another way of preventing your enemies from engaging you (e.g: melee tanks, terrain advantage, movement impeding abilities, etc) is suboptimal, due to lower DPS.

5. Kiting in a situation where the enemy has such an advantage on you is not likely to be an option.

 

So, in order for kiting to be the best course of action, you need a party consisting of mainly ranged characters, meeting up vs enemies whose speed/range/damage/attack rate values can be exploited, and who have no way of slowing you down. You also can't have a better way of preventing them from getting to you.  

 

I don't know about you, but to me kiting doesn't seem like a big issue at all.



#345
Sensuki

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Now I know that Sensuki disagrees and wants to remove tactical thinking, planning and execting in favour of unlimited movability, and that any crowd control by PLACEMENT rather than ability is a big no-no (lol), so it makes sense we disagree often about this particular way of thinking.

 

The only word I have to reply to that is "rofl [#]".

 

In all seriousness though this is a lie, because even with the No Engagement mod, positioning still matters just as much, you're just not punished by the game systems (rather than by the encounter itself) for changing it.


Edited by Sensuki, 22 March 2015 - 07:37 PM.

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#346
Luckmann

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By making movement around the battlefield an actual choice with risk. You want the better ground, is it worth the trade-off, yes/no. Rather than just mindless 'yes, move'.

 

IMO combat is all about making choices between pro's and con's of the moment. If there are no con's, it's not tactically interestingly to add, auto-go-best stuff is best to avoid to make an interesting system.

 

In order for there to be meaningful con's, there needs to be pro's.

There are virtually no pro's to moving in combat. There are only con's. Mobility is actively punished at all steps of the process.

 

Furthermore, as has been repeatedly established multiple times throughout the thread, the mechanic in question was instituted to prevent kiting.

If it fails at doing that, any discussion on it's potential virtues or detriments (the latter which far outweighs the former, and constitutes a "double-whammy" on movement, coupled with the pre-existing Engagement system) is purely academic. And it fails at that. Miserably.

If the mechanic cannot even fulfil it's most basic stated purpose, a purpose that it need not even fulfil (kiting would already be terrible, and it's not a widespread issue, and never was), keeping it is completely and utterly asinine.


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#347
Gairnulf

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By making movement around the battlefield an actual choice with risk. You want the better ground, is it worth the trade-off, yes/no. Rather than just mindless 'yes, move'.

 
Movement around the battlefield is by definition a choice with risk. Because in every battle and in every one-to-one combat you are inevitably managing time and space. You don't need artificial penalties to moving, the penalties are already there. You sound like you haven't played the game, or any game of any genre, which includes similar combat. Or, like you're arguing for the sake of argument.

Edited by Gairnulf, 22 March 2015 - 11:33 PM.

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#348
Killyox

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I must say I feel dumber for reading 8 pages of this thread. It is filled with so much bickering and useless crap that it's pretty sad. Too much OT arguments and insults instead of actual discussion. Sad really.


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#349
wolfstriked

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Arguing is the human way to solve conflicts.All the bad talking is excused after they bicker it all out.Carry on! :banghead:



#350
Hassat Hunter

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There are virtually no pro's to moving in combat. There are only con's. Mobility is actively punished at all steps of the process.

The pro is to gain an adventageous position

I *know* you agree with me that's a pro, otherwise you wouldn't have this discussion about making movement easier and less tactical demanding.
You wouldn't do that if movement was something you see as a non-issue, would you now?

#351
Luckmann

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There are virtually no pro's to moving in combat. There are only con's. Mobility is actively punished at all steps of the process.

The pro is to gain an adventageous position

I *know* you agree with me that's a pro, otherwise you wouldn't have this discussion about making movement easier and less tactical demanding.
You wouldn't do that if movement was something you see as a non-issue, would you now?


If you want to get into an advantageous position, there must be clear disadvantageous positions, and unless you botched the initial positioning, that shouldn't happen. This was covered earlier in the thread. If you have a mechanic that only comes into play when you actively screw up repeatedly, it's not really that much of a mechanic.

There is realistically no way you'd want to break Engagement and suffer movement recovery penalty just to get into a "better" position, currently. Had there not been such heavy penalties levied against movement, combat movement and re-evaluation of positioning could've been a real thing, but it's not.

#352
wolfstriked

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Very new to the fights in POE but I am starting to like engagement from the videos I have watched.To me it adds a realism aspect as you would not wanna just turn and run away while in a melee fight,plus there are some talents you can acquire later in game to allow you to disengage.Also fighters are built around engagement and removing this kinda makes them a real bland class as they lose there ability to engage multiple enemies.Plus,since fighters are usually the ones that get engaged you could use their knockdown to then move away.

 

Maybe a way to ease this hatred of engagement is to make it so that the enemy that gets the engagement attack has a normal recovery period?



#353
Luckmann

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Very new to the fights in POE but I am starting to like engagement from the videos I have watched.To me it adds a realism aspect as you would not wanna just turn and run away while in a melee fight,plus there are some talents you can acquire later in game to allow you to disengage.Also fighters are built around engagement and removing this kinda makes them a real bland class as they lose there ability to engage multiple enemies.Plus,since fighters are usually the ones that get engaged you could use their knockdown to then move away.
 
Maybe a way to ease this hatred of engagement is to make it so that the enemy that gets the engagement attack has a normal recovery period?


Read up on Engagement and how it works, my office is closed for the day. I'm tired of explaining it, once a day is enough.


Edited by Luckmann, 24 March 2015 - 05:19 AM.


#354
Namutree

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Very new to the fights in POE but I am starting to like engagement from the videos I have watched.To me it adds a realism

I don't recall seeing any instant invisible auto attacks from even the slightest bit of movement in real life. Please show me any evidence that in a fight if you move at all you get hit by an invisible disengagement attack instantly from no discernible source.

 

 

Also fighters are built around engagement and removing this kinda makes them a real bland class as they lose there ability to engage multiple enemies.

 

The fact that fighters can engage more enemies is utterly meaningless. Being engaged only matters for you; not the enemy as they never disengage (with or without the mechanic). Fighters are not built around engagement as engagement does nothing for them, or anyone else.


Edited by Namutree, 24 March 2015 - 05:33 AM.

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#355
wolfstriked

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I must play the game for awhile to form a judgement and so I will resist trying to give my opinions about engagement for now.I am wondering if engagement may just be a personal thing in the end.

 

In this video the young halfling lady decides to kick it and just run with her last two remaining characters while one is very hurt and is engaged.Its at 3:15.






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