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Fixing the armor min/maxing: an interesting new gameplay mechanic?


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#61
Yonjuro

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...

 

I think a good approach should not affect DPS or speed at all, but instead limit the flexibility of the class. So, my idea would be to limit spellcasters in their spell choices depending on the type of armor.

Spells are divided into "difficulty"-tiers. This is not to be confused with the spell levels.

Each spell gets a certain difficulty tier applied to them:

1) can be cast with all types of armor

2) can be cast with chainmail and below

3) can be cast with leather and below

4) can be cast with light armor and below

5) can only be cast in cloth armor

...

 

 

 I see where you're going with this. It might be useful to give some examples of existing spells that would go with each armor level. The real make or break for your idea is whether the spell system as is (or tuned in a new way) will work with difficulty tiers instead of time penalties, e.g., are there enough, say, level three spells to cast in plate; is there enough of a difference between plate and chain to make chain a viable choice etc. 

 

 How about non-caster classes? I assume physical attacks still have a speed penalty? How about other class abilities?



#62
illathid

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Trivializing the content? No. Responding appropriately to the game world and understanding system mastery is part of the RPG experience.
 
 
 
 
As for how I'd fix the armor problem, I'd do two things (Note: all numbers are arbitrary and can be changed)-
 
First, rework the armor recovery times into something sane:  0% recovery penalty for robes and padded, keep plate at 50%, and put everything else on a curve from 10% (leather) to 40% (brigandine).
 
Second, add a % ignore recovery time to Consitution, say at 3% per point.  This wouldn't be a percentage reduction, but an absolute number that subtracts from the recovery percentage of armor.  So, say a 14 Con character would ignore 12% recovery time, so they would suffer no recovery penalty from the revised number for leather, and drop Plate recovery penalty to 38%.  
 
This would encourage some armor on everyone, more use of medium armors, and as a bonus, find a use for Con.  Rather than the defacto dragon age style system of 'wizards only wear this and fighters only wear that.'  Which is what the current system effectively amounts to while trying to pretend it doesn't by filling in the middle with junk.


This is a good idea.

#63
Shevek

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Trivializing the content? No. Responding appropriately to the game world and understanding system mastery is part of the RPG experience.




As for how I'd fix the armor problem, I'd do two things (Note: all numbers are arbitrary and can be changed)-

First, rework the armor recovery times into something sane: 0% recovery penalty for robes and padded, keep plate at 50%, and put everything else on a curve from 10% (leather) to 40% (brigandine).

Second, add a % ignore recovery time to Consitution, say at 3% per point. This wouldn't be a percentage reduction, but an absolute number that subtracts from the recovery percentage of armor. So, say a 14 Con character would ignore 12% recovery time, so they would suffer no recovery penalty from the revised number for leather, and drop Plate recovery penalty to 38%.

This would encourage some armor on everyone, more use of medium armors, and as a bonus, find a use for Con. Rather than the defacto dragon age style system of 'wizards only wear this and fighters only wear that.' Which is what the current system effectively amounts to while trying to pretend it doesn't by filling in the middle with junk.


This is an excellent idea imo!

That would make con much more worth it.3% seems high but the core idea is sound.

#64
Arctic

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Trivializing the content? No. Responding appropriately to the game world and understanding system mastery is part of the RPG experience.

 

 

 

 

As for how I'd fix the armor problem, I'd do two things (Note: all numbers are arbitrary and can be changed)-

 

First, rework the armor recovery times into something sane:  0% recovery penalty for robes and padded, keep plate at 50%, and put everything else on a curve from 10% (leather) to 40% (brigandine).

 

Second, add a % ignore recovery time to Consitution, say at 3% per point.  This wouldn't be a percentage reduction, but an absolute number that subtracts from the recovery percentage of armor.  So, say a 14 Con character would ignore 12% recovery time, so they would suffer no recovery penalty from the revised number for leather, and drop Plate recovery penalty to 38%.  

 

This would encourage some armor on everyone, more use of medium armors, and as a bonus, find a use for Con.  Rather than the defacto dragon age style system of 'wizards only wear this and fighters only wear that.'  Which is what the current system effectively amounts to while trying to pretend it doesn't by filling in the middle with junk.

 

I really like that idea, it even works well with things like "tank mages" and so .. you put a 18 constitution in the heaviest armor and go melee with no penalty (well your penalty is having 18 constitucion instead of 18 might, but thats not a penalty, its a build choice) . Not perfect numbers but something like 20 con-> no penalty in heaviest armor .. (will be like .. 6% ?)

 

 

 

* Tell us if someone find a way to mod the (ignore penalty) in constitution! :)


Edited by Arctic, 18 March 2015 - 11:49 AM.


#65
Doppelschwert

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How is a reduction on recovery time on con conceptually different from an increase in action speed from dex, which is already in the game?

 

Action speed scales with all actions independent of armor while the proposed recovery time on con is conditioned on equipment, which no other stat is? Sounds kind of strange to me.

 

I do think however that using talents in order to decrease the slow down of armor and enhance them would be a good idea.

 

Also, I'm confused because no one seems to mention that currently some armor types already give different numbers of DR to different kind of damage types, thus separating them conceptually?



#66
Shevek

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Hmm, good point.



#67
DigitalCrack

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Honestly a quicker fix would probably be just to lessen the speed penalty for everything but plate and then add a penalty for wearing nothing. Like you take a lot more direct health damage when not wearing armor.

#68
DigitalCrack

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Really some non fighter specific armor handling talents for each category would be fun. You could get different bonuses for specializing in different type of armor.
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#69
mrmonocle

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con as a modifier for the armor recovery time is a nice idea. Whether it's con/3% or con/2% is up to testing though.


Edited by mrmonocle, 18 March 2015 - 12:48 PM.


#70
Ondb

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Because nobody knows how to fix the current system in PE, i would just go back to armor system from IE games. Problem solved.

 

Not sure what next issue will be, but going back to IE solutions will probably work....



#71
Luckmann

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[...]

 

Also, I'm confused because no one seems to mention that currently some armor types already give different numbers of DR to different kind of damage types, thus separating them conceptually?

 

I mentioned it. It's just that those different numbers doesn't actually matter enough. Like. At all. Much like the different weapon types except for very select opponents (from what we have seen). Which is also why I suggested ramping them all up.


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#72
Shdy314

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Because nobody knows how to fix the current system in PE, i would just go back to armor system from IE games. Problem solved.

 

Not sure what next issue will be, but going back to IE solutions will probably work....

I see someone didn't read the whole thread. The problem is that it is just like IE. There's no purpose for middle tier armors beyond aesthetics.



#73
drunetovich

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Sorry if this was already pointed out, but OP view on available armor choices seem too narrow - like if we all going to run in baseline chainmails-plates-robes. That is not the case, every armor will have some enchantments that may make it much more appealing to wear, even if it gives less base DR. For example you may find a leather armor that will give +might +dex and some heavy +crushing and fire resist, and it may turn out to be more appealing than your plate on tank or leopard shorts on barbarian.



#74
wickermoon

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If I understood correctly, then the only reason melée DDs are wearing cloth instead of leather is because they're not threatened to be damaged (although my Rogue got attacked on a constant basis, but that might just be confirmation bias), am I right? If so, then working on that issue would bring more to the table than trying to balance cloth and leather armour.

 

Honestly, if I was never in any danger of being attacked, I would choose the armour which would give me the least penalties. And seeing as there's no need for DR if you're not attacked, DR doesn't matter at all.

 

As I've said, I didn't notice my melée DDs not getting attacked. To be honest, my Rogue was attacked several times and my priest was even worse off here and there. But if this was actually the issue, then the problem isn't with the current armour penalties. Again, if there's no need for heavier armour, then the threat system itself is flawed and needs to be reworked, not the armours.



#75
Voss

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How is a reduction on recovery time on con conceptually different from an increase in action speed from dex, which is already in the game?

 

Action speed scales with all actions independent of armor while the proposed recovery time on con is conditioned on equipment, which no other stat is? Sounds kind of strange to me.

 

I do think however that using talents in order to decrease the slow down of armor and enhance them would be a good idea.

 

Also, I'm confused because no one seems to mention that currently some armor types already give different numbers of DR to different kind of damage types, thus separating them conceptually?

Well, conceptually, its about being tough enough and conditioned for the armor.  The change to the lower DR armors is to remove the penalty for even thinking about armor, which I find pretty strange.  If you want to encourage a variety of strategies and builds, you don't put a penalty on the minimums.  

 

As to the difference with dex- quite a bit. Dex modifies the action animation, while the armor penalty affects the recovery animation.  Totally different timers. 

 

As for the armor type issue.  Eh.  Part of it is presumably 'realism,' but what it mostly comes down to is exploiting the inventory system, switching armors out that best fit the enemies you've just spotted.  Aside from gaming the system, I don't see a lot of benefit. 


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#76
Bazy

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I'm going to laugh when everyone running around with naked ranged characters get whooped by enemies burrowing, charging, and teleporting past their frontline.

Even if that were the case... The game is very punishing for anyone besides a tank to take damage. If your mage starts getting attacked it doesn't matter what armor he wears... he is going to have a bad time. 

 

For example, say your mage/rogue/whatever has ~75 health. The mobs in this game hit hard. Having a DR of 6/8/10 compared to 12 isn't going to do anything to keep you alive. You are far better off just doing as much damage as possible.


Edited by Bazy, 18 March 2015 - 07:02 PM.

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#77
wanderon

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I'm going to laugh when everyone running around with naked ranged characters get whooped by enemies burrowing, charging, and teleporting past their frontline.

Even if that were the case... The game is very punishing for anyone besides a tank to take damage. If your mage starts getting attacked it doesn't matter what armor he wears... he is going to have a bad time. 

 

For example, say your mage/rogue/whatever has ~75 health. The mobs in this game hit hard. Having a DR of 6/8/10 compared to 12 isn't going to do anything to keep you alive. You are far better off just doing as much damage as possible.

 

 

Actually wouldn't that 6/8/12 be half as good as the 12 and twice as good as 0? And wouldn't the penalty also be less than it is at 12 and more than it is at 0?

 

Oh wait I forgot this is the internet so everything has to either be either awesome or useless with no middle ground anywhere - sorry my bad...



#78
Luckmann

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I'm going to laugh when everyone running around with naked ranged characters get whooped by enemies burrowing, charging, and teleporting past their frontline.

Even if that were the case... The game is very punishing for anyone besides a tank to take damage. If your mage starts getting attacked it doesn't matter what armor he wears... he is going to have a bad time. 
 
For example, say your mage/rogue/whatever has ~75 health. The mobs in this game hit hard. Having a DR of 6/8/10 compared to 12 isn't going to do anything to keep you alive. You are far better off just doing as much damage as possible.

 

 
Actually wouldn't that 6/8/12 be half as good as the 12 and twice as good as 0? And wouldn't the penalty also be less than it is at 12 and more than it is at 0?
 
Oh wait I forgot this is the internet so everything has to either be either awesome or useless with no middle ground anywhere - sorry my bad...

 

 

It's not that there is no middle ground. It's that the middle ground is useless.

When you get struck reliably for 40 damage, it's not going to matter whether you have 6 or 12 DR.

 

What is going to matter is whether you can kill the thing before it kills you or not, or at least do enough damage to it so your next team-mate up for the grinder doesn't die. Or the tank, for that matter.



#79
drunetovich

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DR is relevant only if complemented with sufficient deflection, otherwise you will get smashed with crits no matter 12 or 0 DR.


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#80
wanderon

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I'm going to laugh when everyone running around with naked ranged characters get whooped by enemies burrowing, charging, and teleporting past their frontline.

Even if that were the case... The game is very punishing for anyone besides a tank to take damage. If your mage starts getting attacked it doesn't matter what armor he wears... he is going to have a bad time. 
 
For example, say your mage/rogue/whatever has ~75 health. The mobs in this game hit hard. Having a DR of 6/8/10 compared to 12 isn't going to do anything to keep you alive. You are far better off just doing as much damage as possible.

 

 
Actually wouldn't that 6/8/12 be half as good as the 12 and twice as good as 0? And wouldn't the penalty also be less than it is at 12 and more than it is at 0?
 
Oh wait I forgot this is the internet so everything has to either be either awesome or useless with no middle ground anywhere - sorry my bad...

 

 

It's not that there is no middle ground. It's that the middle ground is useless.

When you get struck reliably for 40 damage, it's not going to matter whether you have 6 or 12 DR.

 

What is going to matter is whether you can kill the thing before it kills you or not, or at least do enough damage to it so your next team-mate up for the grinder doesn't die. Or the tank, for that matter.

 

 

There it is again - awesome or useless - I've been playing the BB on hard for a lot of hours with a lot of different PCs + BB team + adventurer teams and have outfitted all of them in various forms of mostly medium armors (no naked adventuring and virtually no plate either) and I rarely have party wipes and while I might lose a team member or two in battle we win much more often than lose. I have also avoided almost all enchanting because I am more interested in what the basic weapons & armors are going to do and these partyies have for the most part done just fine. So I'm sorry but I just am not seeing the whole "useless" thing.


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