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Fixing the armor min/maxing: an interesting new gameplay mechanic?


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#21
Luckmann

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Wait, then you understood the idea wrong: the idea is to get rid of the recovery time penalty and instead apply limited spell choices.


All that'd do really, would be to re-create class restrictions on armour, albeit "soft" restrictions.

If we want to "fix" the armour system, I think we need to incentivize (sp?) the use of the various armours, rather than to restrict their use.

First, I'd like to see the various effects of armours "upped", so that there'd be meaningful and clear differentiation between them, instead of just No/Robe/Light/Medium/Heavy armour (as it is now, despite the obvious attempt to get away from it).

This could be done by drastically upping the effects of the armours vs. different weapons. As an interesting side-effect, this would also mean that there'd be a meaningful differentiation between the various weapons used against humanoid opponents.

Second, I'd like to see Talents to support the use of various armours, with interesting effects, to discourage the constant swapping of armours between encounters and promote specialization on a per-character basis.

This would mean that it wouldn't be a bust to use Medium Armours, if, for example, Medium Armours filled that niche that was good against crushing weapons, and had a talent that made you move faster, Plate Mail would be good against Slashing, with a Talent that turns (%) incoming Hits into Grazes.

Something along those lines. The added perk is that the game is already structured somewhat like this, it just needs to be upped to 11 to make it matter.


Edited by Luckmann, 18 March 2015 - 02:25 AM.

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#22
Endrosz

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While definitely a flaw, I find it funny that no-one uses Medium Armour, because no-one did in the IE games either. You stuck to whatever highest the characters could actually wear. :p

 

True that. Yay, it's like in the Infinity Engine games! The difference is that if you used heavy armor-capable characters in a ranged role (archer fighter, caster priest), you would still put them in plate in the IE, because there was no drawback in doing so.


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#23
Shdy314

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While definitely a flaw, I find it funny that no-one uses Medium Armour, because no-one did in the IE games either. You stuck to whatever highest the characters could actually wear. :p

Quoted for truth. You wore robes if you were a wizard and everyone else the highest AC armor you could get. When PoE does something different we complain. When it does something the same we still complain. Obsidian can't catch a break.

 

The only way to make people use medium armor is to force them either by class restriction or medium armor having the stats your class needs so youd be an idiot not to. Or make armor cosmetic.


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#24
Zwiebelchen

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Wait, then you understood the idea wrong: the idea is to get rid of the recovery time penalty and instead apply limited spell choices.


All that'd do really, would be to re-create class restrictions on armour, albeit "soft" restrictions.

If we want to "fix" the armour system, I think we need to incentivize (sp?) the use of the various armours, rather than to restrict their use.

First, I'd like to see the various effects of armours "upped", so that there'd be meaningful and clear differentiation between them, instead of just No/Robe/Light/Medium/Heavy armour (as it is now, despite the obvious attempt to get away from it).

This could be done by drastically upping the effects of the armours vs. different weapons. As an interesting side-effect, this would also mean that there'd be a meaningful differentiation between the various weapons used against humanoid opponents.

Second, I'd like to see Talents to support the use of various armours, with interesting effects, to discourage the constant swapping of armours between encounters and promote specialization on a per-character basis.

This would mean that it wouldn't be a bust to use Medium Armours, if, for example, Medium Armours filled that niche that was good against crushing weapons, and had a talent that made you move faster, Plate Mail would be good against Slashing, with a Talent that turns (%) incoming Hits into Grazes.

Something along those lines. The added perk is that the game is already structured somewhat like this, it just needs to be upped to 11 to make it matter.

 

 

The problem would then be that basicly all armors would be the same and there is no more calculation that can be done via the player. Given no meta-game knowledge, a player can never estimate what types of damage he will encounter. If we apply incomparables instead of numbers (which, again, I think is definitely the way to go), those incomparables must have a clear meaning and predictability to the player. You won't know what damage types will matter later in the game, but you will definitely know what taking a stun over a fireball spell means.

 

 

 

Quoted for truth. You wore robes if you were a wizard and everyone else the highest AC armor you could get. When PoE does something different we complain. When it does something the same we still complain. Obsidian can't catch a break.

 

 

The only way to make people use medium armor is to force them either by class restriction or medium armor having the stats your class needs so youd be an idiot not to. Or make armor cosmetic.

 

 

Again: the core problem is a number-based approach. You will always find an optimum for a problem in maths. What we need are incomparables. Something that isn't bound to stats or numbers. Hence my proposal to remove the recovery penalty and instead limit spell choices.

 

Because damage vs mitigation can be directly compared, while mitigation vs flexibility can't.


Edited by Zwiebelchen, 18 March 2015 - 02:36 AM.


#25
Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

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I'm not sure this is a problem that needs fixing but yeah I think the answer is better enemy AI so that it's harder to keep casters alive and they have good reason to wear tougher armor.



#26
Bazy

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Also I like Padded Armor. I wear it on my casters. It's a 20% penalty for 6 DR, but 8 Piercing and Crushing. Most ranged damage is piercing and that's a decent amount of mitigation. Plus I'm not always chain casting, you only get so many spells/rest so time constraint often doesn't play into it except on the occasional bigger battles.

This is a decent point. It's not like I feel like I have to chain cast a bunch of spells to live. Most of the time I'm autoattacking anyway. 


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#27
Shdy314

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Maybe the easiest solution would be to just ease up on the penalties. Couldn't robes just be a 5% penalty? If it went Cloth 0 Robes 5 Padded 10 Light 15 and Medium 20 You'd at least feel a little less punished for wearing what you wanted. I really don't see this unbalancing the game unless the AI learns to start targeting non-tanks.


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#28
PrimeJunta

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Maybe the easiest solution would be to just ease up on the penalties. Couldn't robes just be a 5% penalty? If it went Cloth 0 Robes 5 Padded 10 Light 15 and Medium 20 You'd at least feel a little less punished for wearing what you wanted. I really don't see this unbalancing the game unless the AI learns to start targeting non-tanks.

 

That'd just make light and medium armor even less relevant.



#29
Arctic

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Well .. i will mod the armors so it dont give the -speed, even something else as a bonus agains some damage tipes (crushing and cold in cloth for example). I really dont like how it is now (-15% casting speed for using a robe ...)

Some kind of armor expecialitation removing the -speed or giving other bonusses will be a good thing, but as i said i will just tune it my way.



#30
Veevoir

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Maybe the easiest solution would be to just ease up on the penalties. Couldn't robes just be a 5% penalty? If it went Cloth 0 Robes 5 Padded 10 Light 15 and Medium 20 You'd at least feel a little less punished for wearing what you wanted. I really don't see this unbalancing the game unless the AI learns to start targeting non-tanks.

 
That'd just make light and medium armor even less relevant.

 
Only if the progression will be kept linear.

If not - one of the armors will be considered "sweet spot", those who want speed will still run around naked and those who want protection will wear plate.

At least one more armor type will be used wink.png It is a fight that cannot be won, but easing the restrictions for lightest armors would be a good start. Especially robes, which currently suck beyond belief.

EDIT:

The system as I proposed offers me to build a character with more survivability at the cost of flexibility. The lack of good non-reactionary buff spells is not really a system flaw, just a flaw in spell design (which can be easily fixed with new spells).
 
But yes, this idea only works with better AI; because why would I limit my spell choices if my spellcasters won't get attacked anyway?


So.. if we fix AI and fix the way buff/support spells work then this armor idea will be great? Yeah, I can support that reasoning ;)

Because either armor system fix is also a compensation for other systemic flaws that it might touch or it comes with an overhaul of some other mechanics.

Edited by Veevoir, 18 March 2015 - 03:28 AM.


#31
Falkon Swiftblade

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I haven't played yet, however I would think the more elegant solution would just limit frequencies of how often you can cast spells. Similar to per encounter or per rest use is now, you just scale those up or down by 1-3 based upon the level. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't currently gain additional uses of spells as you level up like the old dnd, but some per rest skills become per encounter. I would treat it the same way with armor types, except maybe you earn the right to wear plate at lvl 5 or above and leather at lvl 3. As you gain levels not only can you still wear all armors, but the amount of spell use per encounter or rest will increase by 1-3 based upon earlier context of what I said. Hopefully that makes sense.

#32
damage991

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The way I see it the tradeoff will be in what effects are on the armor.  If youre a wizard wearing plate youre going to have high MIGHT (and DEF) but you'll be doing mediocre damage as a caster.



#33
JackWeed

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Wait, then you understood the idea wrong: the idea is to get rid of the recovery time penalty and instead apply limited spell choices.


All that'd do really, would be to re-create class restrictions on armour, albeit "soft" restrictions.

If we want to "fix" the armour system, I think we need to incentivize (sp?) the use of the various armours, rather than to restrict their use.

First, I'd like to see the various effects of armours "upped", so that there'd be meaningful and clear differentiation between them, instead of just No/Robe/Light/Medium/Heavy armour (as it is now, despite the obvious attempt to get away from it).

This could be done by drastically upping the effects of the armours vs. different weapons. As an interesting side-effect, this would also mean that there'd be a meaningful differentiation between the various weapons used against humanoid opponents.

Second, I'd like to see Talents to support the use of various armours, with interesting effects, to discourage the constant swapping of armours between encounters and promote specialization on a per-character basis.

This would mean that it wouldn't be a bust to use Medium Armours, if, for example, Medium Armours filled that niche that was good against crushing weapons, and had a talent that made you move faster, Plate Mail would be good against Slashing, with a Talent that turns (%) incoming Hits into Grazes.

Something along those lines. The added perk is that the game is already structured somewhat like this, it just needs to be upped to 11 to make it matter.

 

 Pretty much agree. I like how they approach it, and I also think the incentive to wear armor is not big enough (vs the recovery speed penalty). I might be wrong on that since I've only seen BB footage and not the game in its entirety, plus theres armor with bonus to certain stats. That might change the balance a bit.
That said, I am NOT going to let my squishies just run around in their underwear just so they do a little more damage. Even just the thought of it makes me shiver. My rogue will be getting a leather armor, my mage a robe and my warrior plate armor, because oldschool. One of the main reasons I am looking forward to this game is the fond memory of immersion I have from the BG series. And I am certainly not going to break that myself, even if it means that combat will be a bit more difficult. 


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#34
Luckmann

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Maybe the easiest solution would be to just ease up on the penalties. Couldn't robes just be a 5% penalty? [...]

 

Robes should have no penalty, honestly. Clothes have no penalty, and robes are basically clothes. The distinction between them is ridiculous.

 

Spoiler


Edited by Luckmann, 18 March 2015 - 04:50 AM.

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#35
Shdy314

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Maybe the easiest solution would be to just ease up on the penalties. Couldn't robes just be a 5% penalty? [...]

 

Robes should have no penalty, honestly. Clothes have no penalty, and robes are basically clothes. The distinction between them is ridiculous.

 

Spoiler

 

I'd be fine with robes having no DR (it's a robe!) and no speed penalty like clothes. It should just be an aesthetic choice between them. Some people want the classic wizard look where others, like me, appreciate a caster that wears pants and a stylish jacket.


Edited by Shdy314, 18 March 2015 - 04:13 AM.


#36
gkathellar

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Thought: What if cloth/robes/etc. generally did well against magic damage types, and heavy armor was better protection against physical damage types, with light and medium falling somewhere in between? I can see some potential problems in the idea, but if the scaling was well-done, might it produce better results?


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#37
Zwiebelchen

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Thought: What if cloth/robes/etc. generally did well against magic damage types, and heavy armor was better protection against physical damage types, with light and medium falling somewhere in between? I can see some potential problems in the idea, but if the scaling was well-done, might it produce better results?

 

Then we have the same problem that Archeage (a korean MMO) suffers from:

Everyone wears leather. The reason for that is, that defense bonuses usually not scale linear, but logarithmic with a diminishing effect the more you stack. Leather with has balanced magic and physical defense offers the highest "bang for your buck" in standard situations.

So, again, we would have a clear "optimum" choice which we are trying to avoid.

 

But yeah, it would at least be an upgrade from the status quo.

 

 

Again, I want to highlight the importance of incomparables in balancing. After all, this is the reason we got an unusual attribute selection in the first place ("might" instead of "strength", boosting magical and physical damage instead of just physical). And while the attribute system is still somewhat flawed, I feel it's at least going into the right direction. We can't say that for armor choices.

 

 

As long as armor choices are only balanced on defense vs. offense we have no real fundamental choices. Because decisions between defense and offense can clearly be made on the purpose of your character in the holy trinity ruleset. Damage? Full offense. Tanking? Full Defense. Everything else is just gimping your character.

The decision for armor types should be based on a different choice that can not clearly be made by just your role alone. Attributes on armor only distort our decisionmaking process by giving us incentives based on what the developers would recommend for your character. It's actually reducing the opportunity of choice, not increasing it.

 

A different take on this could give incomporable bonuses and maluses based on the different types of armors.

 

Maybe something like this:

Light armor: immunity against certain status effects like stuns or knock downs

Medium armor: disables disengagement attacks towards this character

Heavy armor: you can not be interrupted via normal means

 

This is obviously just an example. It would at least offer benefits in armor choices aside from the simple defense vs. offense choice.


Edited by Zwiebelchen, 18 March 2015 - 05:20 AM.


#38
wanderon

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I tend to use a mix of armors in the BB myself just because I can but then I don't pay all that much attention to the numbers I just want it to be viable (usually on hard).

 

 So I have been rarely using plate (BB fighter in fine breastplate), PC generally in Night Stalker (?) armor for the perks for most classes, BB rogue in fine padded, BB priest in either leather or scale, BB Wizard varies between Breastplate, leather or robes and now clothes options, and adventurers vary by class with the bulk of them falling into some sort of medium armor altho yesterday I did a tanky Barbarian in plate that I enchanted to fine (plus large shield).

 

I have not had any extreme issues with this - folks sometimes die sometimes not - I rarely have full party wipes so I consider the choices viable (if not optimal) and of course some of my choices are based on what is available "free" so I can save my loot for other goodies.


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#39
mutonizer

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So you're min/maxing and complaining that things are being min/maxed? Nobody forces you to do anything. That's like saying the game economy sucks because you loot everything there ever was.

 

I always use variety of armours, usually heavy for front liners, medium for skirmishers and light for back liners and find the current system decent enough. Added onto that are look and feel of course, which are quite important to me as well.

 

The only thing I really wish they'd change (though maybe they did for release or something) regarding armour/DR system is to handle crits differently so they don't scale completely off the chart, which would help a lot in making heavier armour more viable for non pure tanks (lower spikes that one shot you). It'll get modded I'm sure though.

 

Otherwise, seems just fine to me.


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#40
Endrosz

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If we want to "fix" the armour system, I think we need to incentivize (sp?) the use of the various armours, rather than to restrict their use.
...
Second, I'd like to see Talents to support the use of various armours, with interesting effects, to discourage the constant swapping of armours between encounters and promote specialization on a per-character basis..

 
I second the idea of Talents for armor. That way you can "dress up" the base numbers more without changing them, and support certain playstyle+armor type combos. There should be about 2-3 Talents per armor type, supporting different playstyles/character concepts. You wouldn't take all of those, just the one that fits best.


Edited by Endrosz, 18 March 2015 - 05:48 AM.





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