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Good God, Avellone's answer was absolutely painful.  Sure, it was funny, but now I keep thinking of the passage:  "...see if it had really been worth it spending the last few years of their physical existence chained to each other in a dance of human misery and/or a plateau of soul-killing compromise."  I just celebrated my 19th anniversary a couple of weeks ago.  Thanks for harshing my buzz, ya jaded bastard!  For the record, there's no soul-killing compromise.  There's implacable resistance.  Get it straight.

 

And I kept thinking of the "bleh" he rates for kissing. Good food, drink, conversation, a kiss ... these things by way of the mouth could not be more enjoyable. 

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All Stop. On Screen.

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Like I said, I hope it is sarcasm, indicating his disdain for cRPG romance.  I'm not entirely convinced, however.

 

As for your other ideas... eh.  The game would have to have a really long and incredibly detailed timeframe to make me care.  I've had too many games (and BG2 is a big sinner here, as is the Jedi Counsellor story from the Old Republic MMO) try to tell me I give a flying fig about an NPC, when they're either just really annoying or only on screen for a couple minutes (or both), and I have no investment at all in what happens to them.  The latter made me actively angry with the game, because I wanted to stop interacting with that pathetic joke of a character in any way at all and whether light side or dark side, I really wanted an option of 'death is a perfectly natural end.'

 

 

Which of course is also a reason why cRPG romances don't work well. Forcing people to actually care without knowing how much or how little they're going to be engaged with the character is easily a waste of resources.  Expectations are all over the place, tastes are all over the place, and the amount of work that needs to go into them so they aren't just 'Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Butts! Endgame!' is pretty high (and to my knowledge, no one has ever put that work in).  Instead we get cheap cut out archetypes: the Woobie, the... female dog..., the ****, the Pompous Jerk, the Indifferent and the Gay Stereotype.  And that (should) satisfy no one with any sense of taste or standards.  

 

 

As for the other... a deep and moving tale involving... self-stimulation?  I guess its worth a chuckle as concept,  but I'd openly mock anyone who stuck it into a story.  

Edited by Voss
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Which of course is also a reason why cRPG romances don't work well. Forcing people to actually care without knowing how much or how little they're going to be engaged with the character is easily a waste of resources.  

 

the raison d'être o' all storytellers is to get folks to care and to feel.  engage the audience is their job-- it is their only job.  yes, the obstacles for the crpg writer is different than those faced by the novelist or poet, but am gonna needs otherwise disagree with you.  if the poe writers can't get us to care or feel deep about their characters, then they has already failed, regardless o' inclusion or exclusion o' romances.

 

HA! Good Fun! 

Edited by Gromnir
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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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I don't mind no romance, but at the same time I don't mind romance. Depending on how well it's done. Truth is, it's hard to get it right to enchance the narrative or relationship between an NPC and player-character. RPG is much more than just romance to me, so I am unfazed with Pillars of Eternity not having it. What I find more important is how your choices matter, how creative you can get when solving quests, NPCs having their own personalities, affairs and opinions about you and your actions and so on.

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Here is my attempt to appease the argument:

Video game romance is for ***s. Who would give a crap about romance in a video game?

 

You're welcome.

Edited by Rumsteak
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Merged the new topic that was created last night (in my timezone) with this one. This might result in a couple of posts that are hard to read, but I caught it too late (since I was sleeping). My apologies.

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I'm a Veteran of BG

had and do have ... Romanceable Characters

:lol:

 

laughing.gif

.... :disguise:

 

From the rest of my post, I was referring to BG as a series, including the BG2 and Throne of Ball.

 

Neverthless Neera the Wild Mage is in BG EE as well.

 

Romances are staples of the best and most memorable RPGs of the genre.

 

 

laughing.gif.... Never gets old.

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From the rest of my post, I was referring to BG as a series, including the BG2 and Throne of Ball.

 

Neverthless Neera the Wild Mage is in BG EE as well.

 

Romances are staples of the best and most memorable RPGs of the genre.

 

 

laughing.gif.... Never gets old.

 

ciAYrm1.png

 

Also, the "Enhanced Editions" are little more than elaborate mods. Neera obviously doesn't count, she's a modded-in oddity and entirely out of place in BG1.

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t50aJUd.jpg

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From the rest of my post, I was referring to BG as a series, including the BG2 and Throne of Ball.

It's Bhaal!

 

And Neverwinter Nights didn't have any romances in it either. And neither did its first expansion pack. Neverwinter Nights 2 did (Elanee and Casavir) but only the harshest of the anti-mancers would ever cite them, as they are the smoking gun evidence that video game romances are an abomination and should cease existing for the greater good of the genre.

Edited by Stun
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Neverwinter Nights didn't have any romances in it either.

 

 

Yes it did. Sharwyn for instance.

In my opinion that was the worst romance ever in a game. Still it was better than nothing.

 

It also had a brothel.

 

 

I digress. Romance options have been in the best of the genre and have their place in my opinion, alongside a clear precedent.

 

It should at least have remained an option. For those that feel uncomfortable, I'm sure they could spare a bit of their apparent wit to turn it off by letting the NPC know how they feel... then die alone in due course if that's their prerogative.

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Yes it did. Sharwyn for instance.

<sigh>

 

Here we go again.... broadening the definition of romance so that any friendly/affectionate NPC interaction = Romance.

 

You people have remarkably low thresholds. But there's good news about that. If this is your definition of romances then you can totally ignore what the devs have said about PoE. It WILL have "romances". in fact we saw "romance" dialogue in the game's prologue.

 

Check it out:

 

JnVRbVg.png

 

^that's "romance", isn't it?

Edited by Stun
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I'm a Veteran of BG

 

had and do have ... Romanceable Characters

 

:lol:

laughing.gif

.... :disguise:

 

From the rest of my post, I was referring to BG as a series, including the BG2 and Throne of Ball.

 

Neverthless Neera the Wild Mage is in BG EE as well.

 

Romances are staples of the best and most memorable RPGs of the genre.

 

 

laughing.gif.... Never gets old.

I wasn't planning on giving a second reply, but this is getting better andbetter. Forgive me, I Didn't realize when you said you are a veteran of BG, BGII, etc., you meant you were a "veteran" of Enchanced Editions. Or that by listing individual titles, you really meant the opposite - the whole series. Edited by Gairnulf
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A Custom Editor for Deadfire's Data:
eFoHp9V.png

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I'm a Veteran of BG

had and do have ... Romanceable Characters

:lol:
laughing.gif

.... :disguise:

 

From the rest of my post, I was referring to BG as a series, including the BG2 and Throne of Ball.

 

Neverthless Neera the Wild Mage is in BG EE as well.

 

Romances are staples of the best and most memorable RPGs of the genre.

 

 

laughing.gif.... Never gets old.

I wasn't planning on giving a second reply, but this is getting better andbetter. Forgive me, I Didn't realize when you said you are a veteran of BG, BGII, etc., you meant you were a "veteran" of Enchanced Editions. Or that by listing individual titles, you really meant the opposite - the whole series.

 

laughing.gif

Happy trolling someone else.

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lsl_4.jpg

 

Romance is worth having in games. Just look how the picture above, from a pixel-humping game, oh how it so deeply pierces the soul and describes the human condition. 

Edited by TheisEjsing
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Yes it did. Sharwyn for instance.

<sigh>

 

Here we go again.... broadening the definition of romance so that any friendly/affectionate NPC interaction = Romance.

 

You people have remarkably low thresholds. But there's good news about that. If this is your definition of romances then you can totally ignore what the devs have said about PoE. It WILL have "romances". in fact we saw "romance" dialogue in the game's prologue.

 

Check it out:

 

JnVRbVg.png

 

^that's "romance", isn't it?

 

I don't mean to be rude, quite the opposite, but you are grabbing at straws here:

I've said that there is a precedent for romance within this genre, especially in the best examples. What you seem to be doing is looking for the lack of, or weak examples of what I'm describing, in the weakest of the series.   NWN had one, it wasn't very good, it isn't what I'm raising as an example, but it did have one with a few party members. It was present.  The expansions had them too except for the first, and many people agree they were well done.

NWN2: Yes, had one. Same for its expansions.

KOTOR, KOTOR 2 had them

Not an answer to you but: BG1 vanilla admittedly did not have them, the current enhanced edition does (Could it be that it was added because there was demand for such a feature?) BG2 did and so the Throne of Ball (on purpose this time) expansion.

So as far as I am concerned the case for a precedent and that the best of the titles included them (I think most would agree that BG2 prevailed over the first, NWN's successive expansions were better than the base game, NWN2 was better than the NWN ditto for the expansions...) is rock solid.

 

The point also remains that some of your are arguing against an optional feature.

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I don't really understand the pillar people put romance on. Is there a reason it's so much more important than any other relationship? The ways the pro-side does this are fairly obvious, but the anti-side is a bit more sneaky about it, claiming that games just can't do romance because it requires emotional investment the player might not have, or it's impossible to be satisfyingly abstracted by the game system, etc. But wouldn't a lot of the logic used also mean that games can't do any significant relationship -- friends, rivals, parents -- because it also requires abstraction and assumed emotion attachment? And given that, at least in this type of game, the romance is entirely optional, even more objections fall away.

 

Perhaps I'm missing something, and given how contentious this topic is I'm sure someone will fill me in soon enough :D

 

Side note: Why is there an assumed connection that any romance content must be tied to sexual content? Ignoring Bioware for a minute (and especially CD Projekt Red), most of the romance in games I've played ignores the physical aspects entirely, and it's not like it's instantly regarded as "not true romance." I'm thinking of certain Final Fantasy games immediately, but I'm sure if anyone really cared I could come up with a decent list.

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Which of course is also a reason why cRPG romances don't work well. Forcing people to actually care without knowing how much or how little they're going to be engaged with the character is easily a waste of resources.  

 

the raison d'être o' all storytellers is to get folks to care and to feel.  engage the audience is their job-- it is their only job.  yes, the obstacles for the crpg writer is different than those faced by the novelist or poet, but am gonna needs otherwise disagree with you.  if the poe writers can't get us to care or feel deep about their characters, then they has already failed, regardless o' inclusion or exclusion o' romances.

 

HA! Good Fun! 

 

I disagree, especially for a dungeon crawl game.  The story is there to keep people engaged in killing more stuff, not for cares and feels.  I'll go watch My Little Pony if I want that.  [seriously, that isn't a dig, if I want warm fuzzies, I go watch MLP.]

 

And given obsidian's track record (of published games), trying to write characters that are even vaguely interesting is a challenge for them, let alone one (or more) worth caring about.  PoE will be successful if stabbing fools in the face and taking their stuff is fun, and if the story keeps players engaged enough to keep doing that.  Getting people to care about their characters only matters if there is an urgent need for bad fanfics or new wanking material.  Either way, I'd be obliged if anyone who wants that keeps it to themselves. 

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So as far as I am concerned the case for a precedent and that the best of the titles included them (I think most would agree that BG2 prevailed over the first, NWN's successive expansions were better than the base game, NWN2 was better than the NWN ditto for the expansions...) is rock solid.

 

 

 

Why is precedent important though? And which games would you say had good romances?

 

Personally I never found romances in games anything special: too short, too shallow, too easy to accomplish... pretty meaningless all in all. If I had to make a pick, I'd say Mass Effect had some pretty good romances. Especially in ME2 where you could continue your romance with your absent lover from ME1. I'm serious, because of the absence of your fiancée, that actually was the best romance ever done in a pc game for me...

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Which of course is also a reason why cRPG romances don't work well. Forcing people to actually care without knowing how much or how little they're going to be engaged with the character is easily a waste of resources.  

 

the raison d'être o' all storytellers is to get folks to care and to feel.  engage the audience is their job-- it is their only job.  yes, the obstacles for the crpg writer is different than those faced by the novelist or poet, but am gonna needs otherwise disagree with you.  if the poe writers can't get us to care or feel deep about their characters, then they has already failed, regardless o' inclusion or exclusion o' romances.

 

HA! Good Fun! 

 

I disagree, especially for a dungeon crawl game.  The story is there to keep people engaged in killing more stuff, not for cares and feels.  I'll go watch My Little Pony if I want that.  [seriously, that isn't a dig, if I want warm fuzzies, I go watch MLP.]

 

And given obsidian's track record (of published games), trying to write characters that are even vaguely interesting is a challenge for them, let alone one (or more) worth caring about.  PoE will be successful if stabbing fools in the face and taking their stuff is fun, and if the story keeps players engaged enough to keep doing that.  Getting people to care about their characters only matters if there is an urgent need for bad fanfics or new wanking material.  Either way, I'd be obliged if anyone who wants that keeps it to themselves. 

 

no doubt obsidian writers such as chris avellone is overjoyed to hear that their efforts is little more than filler to make combats more palatable and that their evocative storytelling lags behind my little pony.  

 

unfortunate for you, we thinks you got things reversed.  clearly obsidian/black isle has made considerable efforts to create memorable and compelling characters; am not even gonna bother highlighting characters from the obsidian catalog as there is no point in arguing something so obvious. furthermore, am recalling that depth o' character were mentioned more than once in the poe kickstarter pitch.  is possible you backed the wrong game.  regardless, we think that you is necessarily gonna be disappointed if you is expecting that the writers o' poe would retroactive "keeps it to themselves" insofar as developing characters worthy of significant emotional response. make audience care and feel is the goal, not an obstacle.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps we see you ain't a backer.... which is good.  poe is unlikely to be your cup o' tea, though you may be able to suppress your gag reflex enough find some enjoyment in the combats. 

Edited by Gromnir
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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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So as far as I am concerned the case for a precedent and that the best of the titles included them (I think most would agree that BG2 prevailed over the first, NWN's successive expansions were better than the base game, NWN2 was better than the NWN ditto for the expansions...) is rock solid.

 

 

 

Why is precedent important though? And which games would you say had good romances?

 

Personally I never found romances in games anything special: too short, too shallow, too easy to accomplish... pretty meaningless all in all. If I had to make a pick, I'd say Mass Effect had some pretty good romances. Especially in ME2 where you could continue your romance with your absent lover from ME1. I'm serious, because of the absence of your fiancée, that actually was the best romance ever done in a pc game for me...

 

BG2. Dragon Age. KOTOR 1. (Mass Effect,as you pointed out)

(No doubt there will be incoming posts that will rip try to rip these to shreds)

You are correct that precedent in and of itself does not mean much, but it does show what people liked, and heavily implies that people who loved the BG series would expect similar features from a spiritual successor. And as is obvious, I do expect this.

The contribution to story and immersion is colossal. 

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So as far as I am concerned the case for a precedent and that the best of the titles included them (I think most would agree that BG2 prevailed over the first, NWN's successive expansions were better than the base game, NWN2 was better than the NWN ditto for the expansions...) is rock solid.

 

 

 

Why is precedent important though? And which games would you say had good romances?

 

Personally I never found romances in games anything special: too short, too shallow, too easy to accomplish... pretty meaningless all in all. If I had to make a pick, I'd say Mass Effect had some pretty good romances. Especially in ME2 where you could continue your romance with your absent lover from ME1. I'm serious, because of the absence of your fiancée, that actually was the best romance ever done in a pc game for me...

 

 

You are correct that precedent in and of itself does not mean much, but it does show what people liked, and heavily implies that people who loved the BG series would expect similar features 

 

Keep in mind that romances were only in BG2; if people expected similar features in PoE as they got in the BG series they wouldn't expect any romance until PoE2.

"Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking.

 

I use blue text when I'm being sarcastic.

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