New Engine?

[Aoha]

Heya

I just saw news of sequel being planed and I wondered is there a possibility of using new engine for upcoming game?

I admit that I really have a dislike for Unity, since it looks quite bad, example - twig like characters in Wasteland 2, has crappy animations and on top of that isnt even optimized properly given its not so stellar performance.

Since Unreal and Crysis engines are basically free now wouldn't that be better alternative? Having characters worth looking at would only attract newer audience and make game more immersive.

I am by no means a graphical whore, I played Icewind Dale 1/2, BG2, Planescape all back in the day when they were released, but quite frankly I would still prefer detailed well done sprites alike Nameless One rather then horrible looking textures of Unity.

Also if I recall correctly there was some talk about why Obsidian isn't using Onyx engine (which I love a lot!) due to Havok costing to much, but Crysis has physics engine integrated in it and there are free solutions such as Bullet Physics engine out there.

This game doesn't have to be a Star Citizen, but making it the most appealing game that it can be would certainly help

 

 

[Stun]

I am by no means a graphical whore,

??

 

You're arguing like one. The sprites look better than they did in the infinity engine games. (which means: more than we asked for) The only thing about them that isn't a flat out improvement is their animations, but that doesn't have anything to do with the engine. Also you're not going to get that PS:T look unless the game has bizzaro NPCs. No one looked normal in PS:T, and that was the design goal. The whole point was to make them artsy instead of realistic.

 

As for Physics. No. It's simply not that kind of game. Physics work great in 3d environments, but they'll look silly in an Iso-view game with pre-rendered hand painted 2d environments.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Stun

[Rostere]

I definitely want Obsidian to use the same engine for a sequel. That would minimize any time they have to waste on setting up the engine to begin with. For a PoE sequel, I would want every dime to go towards more content and nothing towards reinventing the wheel.

[Aoha]

 

I am by no means a graphical whore,

??

 

You're arguing like one. The sprites look better than they did in the infinity engine games. (which means: more than we asked for) The only thing about them that isn't a flat out improvement is their animations, but that doesn't have anything to do with the engine. Also you're not going to get that PS:T look unless the game has bizzaro NPCs. No one looked normal in PS:T, and that was the design goal. The whole point was to make them artsy instead of realistic.

 

As for Physics. No. It's simply not that kind of game. Physics work great in 3d environments, but they'll look silly in an Iso-view game with pre-rendered hand painted 2d environments.

 

 

Asking to not have butt ass ugly characters that poke you in the eyes like Wasteland 2 has them, is not being a graphical whore, wanting game to just look OK is all I ask, Dungeon Siege III did it in 2011.

 

 

As far as physics goes, I just faintly recall it being mentioned so that is why I brought it, sure this game doesn't have to be nor will it be Diablo 3.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Aoha

[Bryy]

 

 

I am by no means a graphical whore,

??

 

You're arguing like one. The sprites look better than they did in the infinity engine games. (which means: more than we asked for) The only thing about them that isn't a flat out improvement is their animations, but that doesn't have anything to do with the engine. Also you're not going to get that PS:T look unless the game has bizzaro NPCs. No one looked normal in PS:T, and that was the design goal. The whole point was to make them artsy instead of realistic.

 

As for Physics. No. It's simply not that kind of game. Physics work great in 3d environments, but they'll look silly in an Iso-view game with pre-rendered hand painted 2d environments.

 

 

Asking to not have butt ass ugly characters that poke you in the eyes like Wasteland 2 has them, is not being a graphical whore, wanting game to just look OK is all I ask, Dungeon Siege III did it in 2011.

 

 

As far as physics goes, I just faintly recall it being mentioned so that is why I brought it, sure this game doesn't have to be nor will it be Diablo 3.

 

The graphics have 100% nothing to do with the engine.

 

Your issue is with the art and modeling department.

[Aoha]

I definitely want Obsidian to use the same engine for a sequel. That would minimize any time they have to waste on setting up the engine to begin with. For a PoE sequel, I would want every dime to go towards more content and nothing towards reinventing the wheel.

 

That could be a valid concern, I quite frankly am not familiar with how hard/easy it would be to switch to new engine. But if it isnt to much of a hassle I dont see a reason to not make it into best game that it can be.

[Stun]

Asking to not have butt ass ugly characters that poke you in the eyes like Wasteland 2 has them, is not being a graphical whore,

I suppose you're right. It's being uninformed. Why are you discussing wasteland 2 and making blind guesses, when you can simply look at the Pillars of Eternity beta and *know* exactly what we're getting? Have you played the beta? I have. The sprites look rather good. better than any of the infinity engine games.

 

So you don't have an argument... unless you're a graphics whore, who wants witcher 3 level waifu detail.

[Bryy]

 

I definitely want Obsidian to use the same engine for a sequel. That would minimize any time they have to waste on setting up the engine to begin with. For a PoE sequel, I would want every dime to go towards more content and nothing towards reinventing the wheel.

 

That could be a valid concern, I quite frankly am not familiar with how hard/easy it would be to switch to new engine. But if it isnt to much of a hassle I dont see a reason to not make it into best game that it can be.

 

That's basically like asking "How hard is it to make a car from scratch?"

 

There's a reason why most games use a pre-existing engine. Dragon Age from BioWare is actually an anomaly as both DA1 and DA2 used new engines. DA3 used Frostbite.

 

A game using a new engine is a big deal.

[danielkx]

Switching to a new engine would be a huge undertaking and require a substantial amount of resources to do so. Unity engine is more than capable of doing what you are asking for, however the budget Obsidian has with PoE limits many of these things. There is only so much that can be done with $4mil budget, especially with a game this large. Switching engines would be the worst thing they could do to the overall game, even if the game looked better than the original.

 

Now that they have a full game experience with Unity under their belt I think you will see significant improvements in the next game they make using this engine.

[Aoha]

 

Asking to not have butt ass ugly characters that poke you in the eyes like Wasteland 2 has them, is not being a graphical whore,

I suppose you're right. It's being uninformed. Why are you discussing wasteland 2 and making blind guesses, when you can simply look at the Pillars of Eternity beta and *know* exactly what we're getting? Have you played the beta? I have. The sprites look rather good. better than any of the infinity engine games.

 

So you don't have an argument... unless you're a graphics whore, who wants witcher 3 level waifu detail.

 

 

Still not a graphical whore, but you certainly are being a jerk.

 

If sequel hits market lets assume in 2017 having decent looking game would only increase the appeal of game, but I guess that is so upsetting to you.

 

Here is comparison between Obsidians own game vs 2 games in Unity: (waifu edition)

 

 

 

[Aoha]

 

 

I definitely want Obsidian to use the same engine for a sequel. That would minimize any time they have to waste on setting up the engine to begin with. For a PoE sequel, I would want every dime to go towards more content and nothing towards reinventing the wheel.

 

That could be a valid concern, I quite frankly am not familiar with how hard/easy it would be to switch to new engine. But if it isnt to much of a hassle I dont see a reason to not make it into best game that it can be.

 

That's basically like asking "How hard is it to make a car from scratch?"

 

There's a reason why most games use a pre-existing engine. Dragon Age from BioWare is actually an anomaly as both DA1 and DA2 used new engines. DA3 used Frostbite.

 

A game using a new engine is a big deal.

 

 

 

Switching to a new engine would be a huge undertaking and require a substantial amount of resources to do so. Unity engine is more than capable of doing what you are asking for, however the budget Obsidian has with PoE limits many of these things. There is only so much that can be done with $4mil budget, especially with a game this large. Switching engines would be the worst thing they could do to the overall game, even if the game looked better than the original.

 

Now that they have a full game experience with Unity under their belt I think you will see significant improvements in the next game they make using this engine.

 

 

Those are very valid points, I am not game dev and as I already said I dont know how hard/easy it is to make a switch. I would just like game to be the best it can be and have a bit broader appeal:)

[Aoha]

 

 

 

I am by no means a graphical whore,

??

 

You're arguing like one. The sprites look better than they did in the infinity engine games. (which means: more than we asked for) The only thing about them that isn't a flat out improvement is their animations, but that doesn't have anything to do with the engine. Also you're not going to get that PS:T look unless the game has bizzaro NPCs. No one looked normal in PS:T, and that was the design goal. The whole point was to make them artsy instead of realistic.

 

As for Physics. No. It's simply not that kind of game. Physics work great in 3d environments, but they'll look silly in an Iso-view game with pre-rendered hand painted 2d environments.

 

 

Asking to not have butt ass ugly characters that poke you in the eyes like Wasteland 2 has them, is not being a graphical whore, wanting game to just look OK is all I ask, Dungeon Siege III did it in 2011.

 

 

As far as physics goes, I just faintly recall it being mentioned so that is why I brought it, sure this game doesn't have to be nor will it be Diablo 3.

 

The graphics have 100% nothing to do with the engine.

 

Your issue is with the art and modeling department.

 

 

Could be, I dont know, I just do know that when ever I see Unity game it is marked as bad looking game with crappy animations while other mentioned engines, especially Unreal manage to pull good looking games that arent even demanding on hardware.

[Yellow Rabbit]

Could be, I dont know, I just do know that when ever I see Unity game it is marked as bad looking game with crappy animations while other mentioned engines, especially Unreal manage to pull good looking games that arent even demanding on hardware.

Have a look on Dreamfall Chapters Book One for example. It's on Unity too, you know.

 

As Bryy already pointed out, animation and textures quality per se have little to do with engine, it's sheer development time and money (engine just puts upper plank on detalization in order to perform well enough). Developers that pick Unity as fairly convenient and cheap tool usually are indies, they don't have resources or desire to really emphasize graphic part. And that creates false assumption "every game on Unity looks bad -> Unity is a crappy engine".

 

I don't really get how all this is about PoE, though. Game looks darn good for what it tries to be.

[danielkx]

Part of what you have to realize with recent games using Unity is that they all suffer from one thing, very small budgets.

 

These games with such low budgets cannot be expected to have high level animation and good graphics. 

 

Although with that said, I would say that PoE actually looks good, and while there are some issues with the animation, it isn't all that bad. They produced a better looking game than I would have expected considering their low budget, inexperience with the engine,  combined with the overall size of the game content 

[Stun]

Here is comparison between Obsidians own game vs 2 games in Unity: (waifu edition)

 

What a dishonest and disgusting attempt to move the goal posts.

 

You were commenting on the sprites. This is not a picture of any game's sprites. None of your pictures are.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Stun

[Stun]

PS:

Having characters worth looking at would only attract newer audience

So would releasing the game on consoles.

 

I suspect you don't actually understand what Obsidian is trying to do here. .

 

Part of what you have to realize with recent games using Unity is that they all suffer from one thing, very small budgets.

Yep, but even if PoE had a $100 Million budget, I'd *still* prefer it to look like Baldurs Gate 2 instead of....Dragon Age Inquisition, or Witcher 2, Or Dungeon Siege 3 or whatever the graphics whores value in their RPGs these days. Edited February 6, 2015 by Stun

[Bryy]

PS:

Having characters worth looking at would only attract newer audience

So would making console versions of the game.

 

I suspect you don't actually understand what Obsidian is trying to do here.

 

Okay, let's move it back a bit. Not going for consolization has nothing to do with not wanting "these type of players". Let's not imply Obsidian doesn't want it to have appeal past the target audience.

[ruzen]

wow the comparison picture choices 

 

...anyways PoE is a very good looking game. As I dont like to talk too much about the squel (guys cmon), but the one thing will be very shamefull that game is turning into Dungeon Siege 3. If that happens in any universe, I'm switching to rant mode

[Luckmann]

 

PS:

Having characters worth looking at would only attract newer audience

So would making console versions of the game.

 

I suspect you don't actually understand what Obsidian is trying to do here.

 

Okay, let's move it back a bit. Not going for consolization has nothing to do with not wanting "these type of players". Let's not imply Obsidian doesn't want it to have appeal past the target audience.

 

Unfortunately.

 

Still not a graphical whore, but you certainly are being a jerk.

 

If sequel hits market lets assume in 2017 having decent looking game would only increase the appeal of game, but I guess that is so upsetting to you.

 

Here is comparison between Obsidians own game vs 2 games in Unity: (waifu edition)

 

http://i.imgur.com/xsyUCHb.png

 

 

 

 

http://www.mobygames.com/images/shots/l/527709-dungeon-siege-iii-windows-screenshot-select-characters.png

If you're going to graphics-whore, let's at least be honest about it and not cherry-pick the worst pictures from builds that doesn't even exist any more. It's funny because Stun asked you if you had actually played the beta; you completely ignore the question and pull out an outdated imagecrop from ... Orcs.com (?) ... and "argue" around it.

 

What utter nonsense.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Luckmann

[Leferd]

IIRC, Obsidian originally was going to use their in-house Onyx Engine but ultimately made the decision to go with Unity instead due to the licensing costs for third party extensions and plug ins if they were to go the Onyx route. 

 

It would have been nice if they had gone that way as there would be less of a team-wide learning curve associated with starting from scratch with Unity. But it's all about the dollars and sense for a budget project.

[Adam Brennecke]

Unity doesn't have much to do with how the game looks because we are using custom lighting/material shaders for most things. Game art production is a budget/time/cost/scope thing, and games can look significantly better when you have the resources for it. A heck of a lot of time was spent making that Katarina model for DS3. There were only four characters to choose from, so much more time could be spent on each one. We also had more resources for graphics engineering, a dedicated lighting artist, and more character artists on that project compared to POE, so generally things are going to look better. 

 

How many different heads/bodies can you choose from in character creation in POE? Dimitri can only spend x amount of time on each thing, and he has a massive balancing act to perform when trying to polish all of the character art in the game. He actually did the model for Katarina, so given the time and resources, he can make things look pretty darn good. That's also why characters in Final Fantasy games look so good (despite the arguable art direction) - they have a limited cast of characters and they never change appearance throughout the game. 

 

Cheers! 

-Adam

[Adam Brennecke]

and to add, most games are like 10-20 hours long... Wasteland 2 and POE are giant games compared to most nowadays. 

[IndiraLightfoot]

Unity doesn't have much to do with how the game looks because we are using custom lighting/material shaders for most things.

Cheers! 

-Adam

 

Popping in for a bit bold question: But since I don't know much about how shaders/lightning work, is this custom stuff, the reason why the character models of our party don't look really lit up in certain areas, and why they have that opaque look to them sometimes? In other posts, I have naively been hinting at how clear char models look in InXile's WL2 - also Unity, but now I realize you have made some custom lightning/shaders, and you also have that clever 2D/3D painted background trick to keep up.

[Adam Brennecke]

 

Unity doesn't have much to do with how the game looks because we are using custom lighting/material shaders for most things.

Cheers! 

-Adam

 

Popping in for a bit bold question: But since I don't know much about how shaders/lightning work, is this custom stuff, the reason why the character models of our party don't look really lit up in certain areas, and why they have that opaque look to them sometimes? In other posts, I have naively been hinting at how clear char models look in InXile's WL2 - also Unity, but now I realize you have made some custom lightning/shaders, and you also have that clever 2D/3D painted background trick to keep up.

 

 

No, it really doesn't have anything to do with that and that's a good question. We have an ambient term in our shaders that is added to characters. We use it to make the character fit into the scene better (which in our first batch of screenshots - this was one of the biggest complaints). It just needs to be adjusted by artists where the term is too strong. In other places, the directional and fill lights need to be tweaked to bring out the character silhouettes. 

 

But I agree with you. The characters do get washed out in certain places in the game, so I may globally scale down or adjust the ambient term before we ship. Additionally I would like to explore tighter shadowing (including point light shadows) and a slight AO around the feet to ground the characters in the scene, but that's work for down the road on future projects. Unfortunately, I haven't had much time to look into graphics improvements over the past several months.

[Apatia]

Not going to repeat what has already been said about why changing engines would be bad idea etc. but...
 

Could be, I dont know, I just do know that when ever I see Unity game it is marked as bad looking game with crappy animations while other mentioned engines, especially Unreal manage to pull good looking games that arent even demanding on hardware.

 

For example

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uECjdRZVjjw

 

Done with Unity. Looks pretty good to me. And the stuff you can do with Unity 5 later.