For the Expansion: Belt Quivers!

[Sensuki]

 

Some people will remember this guy from previous threads ... he's back

[Nonek]

Have a few problems with this new or re-discovered form of archery.

 

1. You can't draw and snap off shots with a 100lb+ pull warbow.

2. If you don't get a large pull the arrow won't penetrate armour, even the layers of linen or cloth used in a gambeson.

3. All the footage of this new shooting technique is done at extremely short range, not wise for an archer.

4. Heavy war arrows, yard long shafts with heavy heads need decently powered launchers.

5. Not good for hunting when you want one shot, one kill lest the meat be tainted by hormones.

6. Arrows have penetrating power, not stopping power, and one can take quite a few before falling as they make quite neat wounds. Something you don't want at short range when someone is trying to kill you.

 

In summary, very impressive at rate of fire, against unarmoured foes, but probably useless against most armour, useless at long distance, warfare and hunting. The quiver on the hip however is a long established method of carrying ammunition, to which I have no objections.

[Labadal]

I don't mind how they do it, just make the ranger more fun. He can store the arrows up his behind for all I care as long as he is more fun to use. I've only ever used the ranger once and it made area transitions a nightmare and it wasn't a fun class in general.

[Flow]

The leaping around is a bit silly, but the shooting style is probably fairly accurate for horse archers and mobile infantry. Like the Mongols, for instance.

 

Not very representative of English longbowmen, of course

[Sensuki]

 

 

1. You can't draw and snap off shots with a 100lb+ pull warbow.

2. If you don't get a large pull the arrow won't penetrate armour, even the layers of linen or cloth used in a gambeson.
3. All the footage of this new shooting technique is done at extremely short range, not wise for an archer.
4. Heavy war arrows, yard long shafts with heavy heads need decently powered launchers.
5. Not good for hunting when you want one shot, one kill lest the meat be tainted by hormones.
6. Arrows have penetrating power, not stopping power, and one can take quite a few before falling as they make quite neat wounds. Something you don't want at short range when someone is trying to kill you

 

I didn't say anything about any of that. But it's a fun demonstration video of short/hunting bow usage.

[Nonek]

Yes sorry about that, bit of a bete noire for me as i'm somewhat of an archer myself. I agree it's very impressive however.

[Gromnir]

we grew up learning lakota style bow hunting. we preferred our winchester, bolt-action .22 (til we were big enough to handle a .30-06), but we gots considerable (and harsh) training on the "right" way to hunt with a bow.  we did use a belt quiver when on foot, but most other stuff we saw in video were striking us as opinion and conjecture rather than anything else.  look for old paintings and tapestries and you see considerable variation o' quiver placement and bow handling. nevertheless, 'ccording to lakota, hold arrow on right side o' the bow is indeed correct, if you is left-handed.  

 

 

notice almost 45 degree angle o' the bow? arrow rests in 'v' made with bow and hand.  is a much more stable position for the arrow than on the opposite side o' the bow. such stability is likely more important on horseback, but that is how we were taught. 'course, we were not taught to hunt with a bow while leaping over barrels or pushing off of a wall, so perhaps our skill set were limited by our ultimate and specific goal: kill critters for dinner.

 

wanna see some impressive trick archery done complete different and even more awe inspiring?  google "howard hill."

 

*shrug*

 

am suspecting that with so many things, notion o' a right way is wrong. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited January 24, 2015 by Gromnir

[Stun]

 

Some people will remember this guy from previous threads ... he's back

Wow, that guy's good. I bet he's like, 12th level

[PrimeJunta]

In summary, very impressive at rate of fire, against unarmoured foes, but probably useless against most armour, useless at long distance, warfare and hunting. 

 

Hey, that sounds familiar! Maybe Josh is a simulationist after all...

[Leferd]

Wonder how many takes it took to split that incoming arrow?

[Gromnir]

quick side note, our "belt quiver" were not actual a belt quiver.  we had/have a diagonal shoulder strap so that quiver sits on our hip and hangs above belt level... a bit above belly-button in actual fact.  also, for us to be certain we got a kill shot, we needed to be within 30 yards, depending on terrain and wind and such stuff. we didn't have a magic bow or even a compound hunting bow.  we had a very impressive, sinew-backed, osage orange longbow, but we still needed to be within 30 yards, and our grandfather woulda' beaten us senseless if we were shooting-to-wound critters. am trying to picture us crashing through brush like a lunatic and getting within 30 yards o' anything.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Quantics]

 

Love it!

[Luckmann]

With different forms of ammunition, of course.

[Mangonel]

I could imagine a professional archer having more than one bow type. After all professional soldiers typically bring more than just a long sword to a battlefield/fight.

 

No doubt such mobile short range archery has its use in small skirmish combat. Although in any situation that would resemble planned warfare with lines I can't see this parkour-bow-fu being very useful as you either want mass target saturation or precision high poundage bows. (since in theory your lines would prevent your archers from needing to run away from charging opponents)

 

I find it pretty amazing that he catches arrows and shoots down incoming arrows. It makes me wonder what poundage bows they were using and how many attempts were made. It seems that such a feat would rely on timing movements to the release of the arrow rather than visually tracking and catching the arrow itself.

[PrimeJunta]

BTW @Nonek he did shoot arrows which penetrated chainmail + gambeson in that video.

 

@Mangonel I dunno if in-close bow-fu infantry ever figured much in warfare, but mounted archers certainly did. Being able to shoot from horseback while charging at an enemy formation, or, worse, when being engaged by an enemy would require skills much like he was demonstrating.

 

(And I'm quite sure that bow hunting is a different set of skills yet.)

Edited January 25, 2015 by PrimeJunta

[Sonntam]

BTW @Nonek he did shoot arrows which penetrated chainmail + gambeson in that video.

 

@Mangonel I dunno if in-close bow-fu infantry ever figured much in warfare, but mounted archers certainly did. Being able to shoot from horseback while charging at an enemy formation, or, worse, when being engaged by an enemy would require skills much like he was demonstrating.

 

(And I'm quite sure that bow hunting is a different set of skills yet.)

 

I rewatched the video, but can't find the place where he shot chainmail. Could you give me the exact time, please?

 

Also, I reeeeally doubt that his particular set of tricks would help on a horse. The guy seems to be ingenious and could learn it in time, but horse riding and shooting asks for a really big adjustment. For one you need good riding skills to control the horse and shoot at the same time. Plus there is wind (unlike in the halls the guy is training) and the distances between the target and the archer are way bigger. 

 

What he is doing right now seems to be fun parlor tricks, but he just seems to try out whatever is cool and not necessarily most efficient in theoretical combat.

[Sensuki]

At like 4:34 or something, and he has multiple videos where he fires quickly and punctures chainmail - this one, his original video from 2009 and a few others.

 

Mail is for protection against cuts though, not piercing, so it's unsurprising.

Edited January 25, 2015 by Sensuki

[Nonek]

 

BTW @Nonek he did shoot arrows which penetrated chainmail + gambeson in that video.

 

 

Not really, that was extremely thin mail, a single layer, not the usual two or three layers that are used in warfare and the gambeson seemed very thin as well, certainly not the thirty plus layers of linen that were usually used.  Even so the arrows hardly penetrated those thin layers, and certainly not enough to reach vital organs. Also the range when he was shooting the armoured target was very short, and the speed was not half of what he was shown using in other parts of the video.

 

In warfare I would want a proven weapon, a warbow rather than a 40-60lb small recurve, which against plate harness would be totally useless. Whereas we have several accounts of the efficacy of the warbow, such as at Poitiers where one French knight attests that the arrow storm was so fierce that it was punching through visors. Of course i'm not saying even an English longbow of the period is certain proof against good plate, we know it is not because of the amount of noble hostages the English would take, but it was more effective than this demonstration in these circumstances. Especially with hardened heavy type 16 arrowheads, though getting them hardened was a frustrating experience for even Henry V apparently.

[Reever]

Dang, that's really impressive!

[aeonsim]

Screw belt quivers I want to see the English longbow approach. Carry your arrows however you like and when you get to the battle stick the arrows point down into the dirt/mud in front of you then start shooting using those arrows. Rapid fire with bonus tetanus for who ever survives being hit by the arrow.

[Lephys]

Rapid fire with bonus tetanus for who ever survives being hit by the arrow.

Even better: coat your arrows in komodo dragon saliva. Have fun getting even a little nick from that.

 

Because komodo dragons are super conveniently available.

[Silent Winter]

 

Rapid fire with bonus tetanus for who ever survives being hit by the arrow.

Even better: coat your arrows in komodo dragon saliva. Have fun getting even a little nick from that.

 

Because komodo dragons are super conveniently available.

 

...and happy to let you stick arrows in their mouths without biting you

[Gromnir]

a relative slow death from infection?  we lost the battle, but less than a week later, a goodly number o' their (pick the "their" of your choice) folks injured by our arrows died due to bacterial infection du jour? so,  neener neener?

 

*shrug*

 

video were a neato little trick shooting presentation, but it were largely fail in replicating and testing individual theories in simulated battlefield conditions for archers.  for example. we noticed that not one single tin can, styrofoam skull or paper target had a shield. also, while lars were frequent leaping and bounding towards the target, the targets were never leaping and bounding towards him and none had the aforementioned shields and spears n' such to be poking lars full o' holes while he slid around on roller skates or 'cross the concrete floor on his knees. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[teknoman2]

if you noticed, he doesnt just pull the bowstring back, but also pushes the bow itself forward, effectivelly halving the time needed for every shot and the strain on each arm

Edited January 27, 2015 by teknoman2

[Sonntam]

Here is an interesting article to this video.

 

It seems the person writing the article was majorly pissed by the sensationalist tone of the video, so he hacked around on that for the biggest part of the article. Still, may be worth reading.