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GordonHalfman

Attribute system revamped?

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So Accuracy is gone and Deflection is split between Perception and Resolve?

People that complained about Deflection being on Intelligence will be pleased :)

 

I also like the idea of no stat controlling accuracy. It was too good and always the stat to max.

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Nice catch.

 

Interesting that 2 stats govern the same bonus (deflection). I don't think I've ever seen that in a game before.

 

So if a min-maxer were to pump his perception to 18 and dump his resolve to 3, the two would cancel each other out and his deflection bonus would be exactly 0?

Edited by Stun

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Looking forward to try out the new build and play around with the new maths.


"Things are funny...are comedic, because they mix the real with the absurd." - Buzz Aldrin.

"P-O-T-A-T-O-E" - Dan Quayle

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Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

 

Good to see Interrupt back in, but I'm not sure removing Accuracy is going to solve the problem. I think it will just create more.

 

Attributes are easy to change though, so I will try it and see how it goes.

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Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

 

Good to see Interrupt back in, but I'm not sure removing Accuracy is going to solve the problem. I think it will just create more.

 

Attributes are easy to change though, so I will try it and see how it goes.

While I don't out right disagree I like this system better than the current.  As is now Perception is must have, the end, period, see you later, doesn't really even matter much what class or build you are.  With these changes I can still see it being really useful and a valid choice but it is no longer OP.  I also like that they buffed dex and resolve a little.  Getting a clearer picture of how your saves are effected by the stats is a big deal too.

 

Overall a good change.

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Will be interesting to play around with new builds with this system. For my main paladin, I'd probably want focus on Intelligence and might, and maybe a little to perception or resolve (resolve being the more thematic choice in my opinion).


"Wizards do not need to be The Dudes Who Can AoE Nuke You and Gish and Take as Many Hits as a Fighter and Make all Skills Irrelevant Because Magic."

-Josh Sawyer

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Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

 

Good to see Interrupt back in, but I'm not sure removing Accuracy is going to solve the problem. I think it will just create more.

 

Attributes are easy to change though, so I will try it and see how it goes.

Maybe they lower enemy defenses across the board, maybe accuracy talents become more important. Maybe debuff spells and abilities become more important. Maybe spells and abilities that increase your accuracy become more important. Edited by archangel979
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Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

 

Good to see Interrupt back in, but I'm not sure removing Accuracy is going to solve the problem. I think it will just create more.

 

Attributes are easy to change though, so I will try it and see how it goes.

Maybe they lower enemy defenses across the board, maybe accuracy talents become more important. Maybe debuff spells and abilities become more important. Maybe spells and abilities that increase your accuracy become more important.

 

I was thinking the same thing. Accuracy is severely overvalued in the current (v392) system, and Perception was incredibly overpowered (by comparison). By moving Accuracy into a "Talents only" territory and trying to balance the weapon/shield bonuses and penalties (which may be hard, since Accuracy is harder to come by, it's more valuable than ever) they've made those talents matter way more than before.

 

For the Stream Version, Resolve has a potential dump stat problem as pointed out by Stun. If you dump resolve to pump up Perception, you'll loose out on Concentration and Will, but you'll gain Interrupt and Reflex, which.. uhm.. actually, that sounds kinda reasonable, trading one Defense for another, and trading Concentration for Interrupt; that being said, Concentration is less valuable than Interrupt, imo, but that's a tweaking issue.

 

Dexterity remains uninteresting.

 

Moving things around between Intelligence and Resolve has certainly made it harder for my Paladin to decide where to place points. Intelligence is (again) the king of the Casters.


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I actually think accuracy is overvalued because of the multiplier system. It's important to get good attack resolutions because results are woeful on grazes due to the whole result being multiplied by *0.5 and crits are super good because the result is multiplied by *1.5

 

If multipliers were additive, damage stacking would result in less crazy damage, and grazes wouldn't be as bad. I don't think they've examined the problem of why accuracy is so good, other than what is obvious at face value - which is that it is required to hit on all attacks.

 

So perhaps a bit of a lazy implementation / bit of an oversight. I will try it, but I can already see exactly how I'm going to build effective characters and essentially ignore a few attributes already.

Edited by Sensuki
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I actually think accuracy is overvalued because of the multiplier system. It's important to get good attack resolutions because results are woeful on grazes due to the whole result being multiplied by *0.5 and crits are super good because the result is multiplied by *1.5

 

If multipliers were additive, damage stacking would result in less crazy damage, and grazes wouldn't be as bad. I don't think they've examined the problem of why accuracy is so good, other than what is obvious at face value - which is that it is required to hit on all attacks.

 

So perhaps a bit of a lazy implementation / bit of an oversight. I will try it, but I can already see exactly how I'm going to build effective characters and essentially ignore a few attributes already.

I'm not sure if there's an easy fix that they can flip to switch from multiplicative and additive multipliers, but if there is some way that doesn't mean having to go through everything by hand, they really should take a look at it. I know it's been one of your pet peeves (possibly with very good reason) and they really should look into it, and if they have tried it, explain why they opted out of it.


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I have a feeling this implementation might be just as bad, if not even worse than the v257/278 Attribute system.

 

Now if I want to make a DPS character, I can safely ignore everything except for Might - that will now be Maxxxed on everyone who wants to deal damage, and after that probably Dexterity now, assuming that Action Speed increases now actually work.

 

For casters - INT maxxxed, and then Might for damage dealers, Dex for Priests.

 

Can safely ignore Perception and Resolve again (and Constitution too).

Edited by Sensuki

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I didn't realize it at first, but +Range has been removed from Perception.

 

Overall, I think the changes have made it easier to go for dump/pump stats depending on class.

 

I'd like to see +AoE moved to Resolve, basically switching places for +Duration and +AoE compared to v392. +Duration never made sense on Resolve for me, but Resolve is all about imprinting yourself on others and the world, so the increase in AoE would make more sense there.


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I didn't realize it at first, but +Range has been removed from Perception.

 

Thankfully, because it was useless.

 

I like the Intellect with AoE and Duration. It's a strong attribute. Strong attributes are good and most of them should try and be strong.

Edited by Sensuki

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I have a feeling this implementation might be just as bad, if not even worse than the v257/278 Attribute system.

 

Now if I want to make a DPS character, I can safely ignore everything except for Might - that will now be Maxxxed on everyone who wants to deal damage, and after that probably Dexterity now, assuming that Action Speed increases now actually work.

 

For casters - INT maxxxed, and then Might for damage dealers, Dex for Priests.

 

Can safely ignore Perception and Resolve again (and Constitution too).

That's fine. As long as all attributse are viable for all classes; they don't all need to be useful for all builds.


"Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking.

 

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YES! Deflection gone from intelect :yes:. I guess I can live with dump stats for particular classes (back to IE roots), but I really hated deflection from Intellect.

 

 

Nice catch.

Interesting that 2 stats govern the same bonus (deflection). I don't think I've ever seen that in a game before.

So if a min-maxer were to pump his perception to 18 and dump his resolve to 3, the two would cancel each other out and his deflection bonus would be exactly 0?

 

Guess that's exactly how it works.

 

Wow - very nice changes. I like how they "buffed" some stats by giving multiple defense boosts instead. Very clever.

 

Only Deflection is changed, the other 3 defences were derived from particular stats from the beginning. The only change is that it is now explicitly stated.

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Bear in mind that these changes are not necessarily final.

 

Maybe Sawyer was just messing with stats his own build.

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This is an improvement IMO. MIG, CON, DEX, and INT are all good. PER and RES seem a little weak though.

You mean exactly the same as v257 right?

 

That's *exactly* how it was back then. The only difference is that instead of Accuracy on Dex, it's Action Speed and Per and Res give +1 Deflection. It's a step backwards IMO.

 

Either way like I said, I'll try them but I am pretty sure I can already see how it's going to go.

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They also buffed Con to 3% Endurance per point, noticed that last night but you can't see it over the mouse cursor.

 

Not sure how I feel about this, it's quite similar to the original system. I know a lot of people didn't like the old Intelligence but I quite liked how Int and Res could be taken on martial classes for different reasons. Like I would take Res on an offensive fighter to buff my knockdowns but also benefit from concentration, and take Int on a tank Paladin to buff deflection but also benefit from better AoE on my auras. Now Int feels like a caster stat again, Res doesn't do that much for backline classes. Having to take two stats to increase deflection makes defensive builds weaker. 

 

I guess there's only so much they can keep changing stuff around but I think I would have preferred the current BB system, just with Per changed to 1% accuracy + 1% interrupt and Res, Dex and Con buffed slightly in other ways. 

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I have a feeling this implementation might be just as bad, if not even worse than the v257/278 Attribute system.

 

Now if I want to make a DPS character, I can safely ignore everything except for Might - that will now be Maxxxed on everyone who wants to deal damage, and after that probably Dexterity now, assuming that Action Speed increases now actually work.

 

For casters - INT maxxxed, and then Might for damage dealers, Dex for Priests.

 

Can safely ignore Perception and Resolve again (and Constitution too).

That's only if you plat for combat part of the game and ignore story because stats will also impact story which for me at least in 1st playthrough is very important.

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Yeah but you can assign your attributes whatever way you like and play on a lower difficulty. I will assign my attributes for combat and accept the options available to me based on that.

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You mean exactly the same as v257 right?

That's *exactly* how it was back then. The only difference is that instead of Accuracy on Dex, it's Action Speed and Per and Res give +1 Deflection. It's a step backwards IMO.

 

Either way like I said, I'll try them but I am pretty sure I can already see how it's going to go.

 

If you say so. I just think it's a good idea that Accuracy is gone since it's so absolutely crucial to everything making PER such a must-have stat. I don't think there really is any way around that, other than re-engineering the graze/hit/crit system which I'm pretty sure would cause all kinds of balancing problems across the board as it's a much deeper mechanical change.

 

You're right that it does make Talents that buff Accuracy more valuable, but the solution to that is to make the alternative Talents that much more appealing. That's easy to do by tweaking durations and such. It's a lot harder to balance other attributes against Accuracy without either nerfing PER completely or throwing the others similarly out of whack.

Edited by PrimeJunta
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