Stop Right Now Thankyou Very Much

[Stun]

Which is precisely why it (and damage numbers, among other things) need adjustment.

 

"You need to deal with this melee person engaging you" isn't causing all that. Not having enough ways to do so, and being insta-slain unless you do it just right, is.

 

It's all variable. Croikey. Why is that hard?

 

"Too hot in the room? TEMPERATURE WAS A BAD IDEA!"

 

"Wait, maybe we should try to cool the room or..."

 

"NO MAN! WE'VE GOTTA GET RID OF TEMPERATURE!"

We're not there yet. Right now I'm just wondering what the true tactical purpose is for the engagement mechanic in the first place. Aside from Beetles (who get to teleport around at will, and be totally immune to the engagement mechanic), the enemies in this game do not utilize in-combat mobility anyway. They get to their target and they stay there until they're dead, even if the mage in the back is obliterating them from a distance.

 

Or to apply your analogy: It's like installing an AC unit in an igloo.

 

But you might be right that the engagement mechanic isn't the problem here. It's difficult to actually pin-point the true root of the problem because the combat as a whole in this game is downright insufferable. Nothing means anything. I haven't noticed any difference between rushing into melee naked as opposed to equipping the heaviest armor; I haven't noticed any damage difference between daggers and greatswords. My morning star-wielding, 20 strength, dirty-fighting rogue is not doing 26% more damage than my dagger-wielding 9 strength wizard. They haven't fixed pathfinding; they haven't fixed the disappearing equipped gear bug (which they've known about since last June); Buffs in this game seem to be nickel and dime affairs that don't make any difference in combat effectiveness (go ahead, tell me how much less you've gotten hit after someone buffed you up with +10 deflection). And the numbers don't make sense. I was fighting a Skaen cultist and BB Fighter grazed him for 6 damage, and then about 3 seconds later scored a critical hit for 00.00 damage. Say what?

 

Is this game coming out in a few months? Yeah, we should probably be a little concerned about that.

Edited December 22, 2014 by Stun

[Osvir]

 

We're not there yet. Right now I'm just wondering what the true tactical purpose is for the engagement mechanic in the first place. Aside from Beetles (who get to teleport around at will, and be totally immune to the engagement mechanic), the enemies in this game do not utilize in-combat mobility anyway. They get to their target and they stay there until they're dead, even if the mage in the back is obliterating them from a distance.

That's what happens now yes, but we don't know how it will act later. A Wizard might be using magic like that "teleportation", Rogue's you face using escape, Fighters using knockdown (which they already do). An enemy Priest casting a Seal, or a Barbarian Wild Sprinting into you. There's tons of abilities in the game, and currently, I've mostly seen the AI use "Auto-Attack" (the majority, unique monsters do more stuff).

 

Each ability is a trigger and can be scriptable to be done by various situations. Dragon Age: Origins have "Tactics", and Final Fantasy XII have "Gambit" (IIRC). These are scripts the Player can use and play with for their party and characters they aren't actively controling, but I believe similar tactical scripts are used for the enemies in both DA:O and FFXII. I don't know if we'll get that sort of control of our units in-game in Pillars of Eternity, maybe in active console commands, or out of the game when editing or modifying.

 

Point is, there's tons of resources that the basic AI we see isn't using... yet.

Edited December 22, 2014 by Osvir

[MReed]

I can't find either of these posts, but I remember two separate posts from developers stating:

 

1) Due to lack of resources, the AI for foes in PoE will be limited / primitive / not as complex that they hoped for -- this shouldn't be a shock, because you really can't start tuning the AI until the mechanics are all locked in, and the mechanics still aren't all locked in.

2) Also due to lack of resources, there will be no player accessible scripting language (even in non-user friendly form, such as the old IE games offered), for party members.

 

I certainly accept these as true statements, in any case .  My objective in pushing for the removal of engagement is based on the logic of "Once it is in a released game it will be far more difficult to remove or nerf in the expansion pack / sequel and it creates serious difficulties in writing a strong / complex / clever AI for foes or players". 

 

I'm quite certain that whether engagement is in the game or not the AI for PoE is going to be no better than what was offered in BG1 (for foes -- it will be inferior in what is offered to automate party members), or only slightly better than what is currently on offer in the Backer Beta.

[Lephys]

We're not there yet. Right now I'm just wondering what the true tactical purpose is for the engagement mechanic in the first place. Aside from Beetles (who get to teleport around at will, and be totally immune to the engagement mechanic), the enemies in this game do not utilize in-combat mobility anyway. They get to their target and they stay there until they're dead, even if the mage in the back is obliterating them from a distance.

See, that's all very true. But none of that is engagement's fault. I get that, if the AI never matches the mechanics at hand, then there's not much point in the mechanics. I'm not saying "See, that means engagement is fine now! ^_^"

 

There's a problem, but the problem is with the current state of many things, not with the sheer concept of melee engagement. I know you weren't the main one insisting otherwise, but you brought it up again, so I responded to you to reference it and re-emphasize this point.

 

 

Or to apply your analogy: It's like installing an AC unit in an igloo.

 

It's probably just the optimist in me, but I like to think it's more like installing an AC unit in winter. It's gonna be summer eventually (hopefully). I do hope that, even if the AI never gets super complex, it at least takes advantage of the mechanics at hand. Honestly, I'd rather see it making almost completely random decisions (on occasion, and secondary to basic, "intelligent" decisions...) than just never reacting to things at all.

 

I dunno. It seems like it's not that difficult to get them to not JUST target one thing and stand there forever. Didn't BG have the morale/panic system? You could introduce something like that, that would sometimes cause enemies to, at the very least, flee from melee engagers from time to time, even if they didn't "intelligently" and/or tactically switch targets, etc.

 

I think things can be done, and all hope is not lost. I'm not saying it can't end up bad, but, I'm also confident that they won't just leave it in for its own sake if it just isn't working. However, it's a bit rash for people to keep saying "look! It's not super splendid at the moment! SCRAP IT!". We could say the same thing for any number of systems. Hell, AI. "It's not working well. GET RID OF IT!". Damage. "It's too high right now! STRIP IT!"

 

It's just... a bit of a knee-jerk reaction. The logical progression is "try to get it working better, then, if you can't, omit it."

Edited December 22, 2014 by Lephys

[archangel979]

So, how is this in new build?

[Stun]

The new build doesn't alter the engagement mechanic. All it does is make it more clear who's engaging whom on the battlefield.

[drunetovich]

It would be logical to put some additions on disegage attaks, I think following would be ok:

1) Allow to disegage safely as long as there are other characters of the same side egaged with this oponent, assume friends cover your retreat

2) Give option for egaged character to move very slowly outside egagement radius in order to leave egagement safely if enemy unable to follow, or draw him safely to follow you, this could be used for "dragging" egagement around to desired tactical position.

[Sensuki]

Combat runs poorly for me and you can't create a custom party, so I will be waiting until the next build to do any serious Engagement testing.

Edited December 24, 2014 by Sensuki