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Poll. Should the 'Invisible Combat Round' of IE Games Return ?

combat round ie game poll tactics rtwp

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Poll: Should PoE remain round-free or should it have 'hidden rounds' where everyone's actions are limited, like in the old IE games ? (78 member(s) have cast votes)

Do you want the 'inv. combat round' of IE Games to return ?

  1. Yes. I want Combat in PoE designed based on inv. combat rounds that determine everyone's actions. (25 votes [32.05%])

    Percentage of vote: 32.05%

  2. No. I prefer the new system, re-balanced & tweaked until it can be made to work. (53 votes [67.95%])

    Percentage of vote: 67.95%

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#41
Shevek

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Why are we assuming UI changes cannot effectively address issues with chaotic combat? Also, why are we assuming that rounds are the only viable systems change?
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#42
Namutree

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Ma-PAUSE-ybe th-PAUSE-en you w-PAUSE-ill chan-PAUSE-ge you-PAUSE-r minds.. Phew..so hard trying to speak a single phrase during PoE Combat phase.

N-Pause-o-Pause-t Pause e-Pause-n-Pause-o-Pause-u-Pause-g-Pause-h Pause p-Pause-a-Pause-u-Pause-s-Pause-e-Pause-.


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#43
Namutree

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Why are we assuming UI changes cannot effectively address issues with chaotic combat? 

Because the lack of synchronized action makes it chaotic. The best UI in the known universe can't fix that. 

 

 

Also, why are we assuming that rounds are the only viable systems change?

There are many viable changes besides rounds. We already agree that the UI needs work. 



#44
Shevek

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I guess I disagree that combat cannot be fixed via UI. Plenty of RTwP games exist without rounds that do not feel chaotic. I tend to see UI as how they achieve this.

#45
Namutree

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I guess I disagree that combat cannot be fixed via UI. Plenty of RTwP games exist without rounds that do not feel chaotic.

Which RtwP games has the following features, but no rounds?

 

A) Has a large party of six people, or more.

 

B) Isometric view.

 

C) Combat that isn't mostly automated. 



#46
Shevek

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Many games hit A and B. C is your largest concern. Isn't C an issue being dealt with?. Hasn't the lack of automation and the large degree of active use been communicated to and by devs? Rather than discus rounds, what about waiting to see what is done about the overabundance of active skill use and, instead, focus on the UI which all stakeholders agree is an issue?

#47
Sensuki

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How does UI changes fix issues with speed?



#48
mstark

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How does synchronized round timers fix an issue with speed? Other than forcing the player to wait for it. I agree that there's an issue with the speed of PoE combat (I've been following the beta closely), it seems more related to movement speed (enemy and pc), action speed, and damage numbers being unbalanced, rather than the game needing synchronized rounds in order to feel less chaotic.


Edited by mstark, 01 November 2014 - 02:12 PM.

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#49
Shevek

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It makes speed manageable. It communicates events over time more effectively. It helps the player learn when to pause to execute actions more effectively and not haphazardly pause more often than they should. It helps then gauge ai actions and when to execute movement or action.

Edited by Shevek, 01 November 2014 - 02:14 PM.

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#50
Doppelschwert

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I also think the problem lies more in getting the right feedback from the game and the actual speed instead of real time per se. If you have access to proper auto pause conditions, a way to queue up actions and better UI feedback, then the amount of pausing should be getting much better. Also, if the design goals regarding balancing are met in the way they should, you should be able to build some of your characters in a way that they require much less maintaince.

 

At least I know that I will build my non-magic characters in a way that they will only have a few important active abilities and will concentrate on passive abilities for the remaining available talents.


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#51
wanderon

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Don't forget that the final game will feature real companions as opposed to the placeholder BB companion team and I suspect the real ones may come with individual more robust and useful AI which may have quite an effect on group combat at least for those who choose to use it.


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#52
constantine

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Surely overall game speed is an issue, be it movement or atk/spellcasting and should be the first aspect in combat to receive modification.

Then it may be that 'lethality' of combat be tweaked, unless of course this is intentional. Personally I m fine with it, as it adds to realism.

My belief is that PoE would be better with the IE system, but since this is never gonna be the case, let's work with what we have.

It *may* turn out to become an enjoyable system, also one that does not fail to convey all the audio-visual goodness that this beautifully designed game has to offer.

#53
Sensuki

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It makes speed manageable. It communicates events over time more effectively. It helps the player learn when to pause to execute actions more effectively and not haphazardly pause more often than they should. It helps then gauge ai actions and when to execute movement or action.


What UI exactly? Without an explanation, UI could take us to the moon.

How does synchronized round timers fix an issue with speed?


Refer to my posts on the reason why I think rounds require less pausing. Note that I also did not say that the game should use them, only that I think that the IE game implementation was actually good, rather than what the developers have told us "WE DONT NEED ROUNDS WHERE WE'RE GOING HAH"

#54
Shevek

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UI means anything and everything from indicators which explain current actions to lists or the like which specifiy action order. It encompasses combat feedback, how actions are executed or queued and all other manner of ways in which a USER INTERFACES with existing game systems. Do you really need me to define UI?



#55
Sensuki

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That's not what I asked. You tell me what UI changes would improve combat speed ?



#56
Karkarov

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That's not what I asked. You tell me what UI changes would improve combat speed ?

Personally I think putting the action meter on the portrait would help as it would allow it to be easier to read and more accurate due to it's increased size and removal from the middle of all the combat insanity.  Would it fix the "speed", no, but it sure would be a nice change.


Edited by Karkarov, 02 November 2014 - 05:18 AM.

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#57
Sensuki

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I have been thinking the same thing, because the health display above your own characters that have a portrait is superfluous information that only clutters the screen. I don't think they should be OVER the portrait though, but rather underneath them - and also should be able to be disabled.

But yes that has absolutely nothing to do with speed, Shevek made the statement that changes to UI would fix the issues with the speed - I would like to hear him explain how.



#58
Shevek

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Improve interfacing with the current combat speed, you mean? Indicators on portaits could let us know if characters are in cooldown, acting, out of cooldown, etc. A portrait bar could list character order in the top edge of the screen (similar to tb games). Action indicators above characters could be of variable lengths to better telegraph the length of cooldowns. Many many things could be done on the feedback side. Similarly, a character getting critted or hit by an AoO could give out various barks or be animated differenly to be better help the player see what is happening in the heat of the moment. The list goes on and on. There are many possible solutions.



#59
Karkarov

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I have been thinking the same thing, because the health display above your own characters that have a portrait is superfluous information that only clutters the screen. I don't think they should be OVER the portrait though, but rather underneath them - and also should be able to be disabled.

But yes that has absolutely nothing to do with speed, Shevek made the statement that changes to UI would fix the issues with the speed - I would like to hear him explain how.

Let me rephrase, when I said over the portrait I just meant with them.  Ideally I would put it on the right side of the portrait filling up from bottom to top.

 

Something like this?  Rough example:

 

i3h2FqT4Oegpe.png


Edited by Karkarov, 02 November 2014 - 05:33 AM.


#60
Sensuki

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Nah I don't like that, I'd prefer a bar underneath them like this

 

Really bad mspaint mockup

 

isMlgMt.jpg

 

This would also have issues interacting with Monk, Cipher and Chanter resources and Animal companions ... but yeah it could be made to work.







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