Jump to content

Welcome to Obsidian Forum Community
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

About the Talent/Skill Merger...

talents skills design mechanics lore survival athletics stealth

  • Please log in to reply
67 replies to this topic

Poll: The Talent/Skill Merger Poll (89 member(s) have cast votes)

Should Talents and Skills be Intertwined?

  1. Yes, I'm willing to give the new design a chance. (50 votes [56.18%])

    Percentage of vote: 56.18%

  2. No, I preferred the old system of buying Skills separately from Talents. (32 votes [35.96%])

    Percentage of vote: 35.96%

  3. No, and we need a system other than the previous one (please describe in thread). (7 votes [7.87%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.87%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#21
Endrosz

Endrosz

    Silent Prospector of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 487 posts
  • Location:Hungary
  • Steam:endrosz
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer

I'm also in the camp who's astounded by and rejects this change. Why? Why change a thing that was working just fine? I have nothing new to add, but I wanted to say where I stand on this.


  • Sensuki, Karkarov, Namutree and 1 other like this

#22
IndiraLightfoot

IndiraLightfoot

    Apex of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 5553 posts
  • Location:Over the Hills and Far Away
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

It's a considerable design change, but I like it because:

  • It's more strategic. It's now harder to mindlessly max out a specific skill. You actually have to sacrifice a talent if you want to be maxed Mechanics, maxed Lore, etc. You can have more/deeper talents, focus on more/deeper skills, or find a balance. This is more interesting to me than deciding which guy is going to max Mechanics, which one Lore, etc.
  • It's more logical. Linking talents and skills makes flavor sense--Hold the Line tying into Athletics, for instance. Having skills exist in their own vacuum, completely independent of talent selection, seems odd now.
  • It's more fun. I don't miss the dull process of pumping more points into whatever skill I want to max in order to reach gated content or unlock chests.

Let's see what you guys think. If you don't like it, how would you redesign it?

I like this new system. And I agree on all accounts. It makes building a character a fun and challenging task. The choices feel more meaningful. :)


  • Caladian and JohnnySideburns like this

#23
Namutree

Namutree

    Compulsive Double Poster of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 1711 posts
  • Location:Michigan
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer

 

Let's see what you guys think. If you don't like it, how would you redesign it?

I would just go back to the old system. Anything is better than talents being tied to skills. 



#24
Sensuki

Sensuki

    Subway Apathist of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 9965 posts
  • Location:Australia
  • Steam:STEAM_0:1:1229809
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

I think you guys are just happy not to have to spam mouse clicks 20 times to level up skills. 


  • Karkarov and Sif like this

#25
Starwars

Starwars

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 3196 posts
  • Location:Sweden
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer

And the previous system could be solved by having a skill point pool or something where you could save up points for buying the higher skill levels. That would bring down a lot of the clicking.

 

I'm not a fan of this new system at all. By bringing the skills and talents together, you have to make a choice, yes. But it seems to be a choice that is going against what PoE seemed to want to accomplish. With the new system, I have to decide in a rather strange way if the skills are more important to roleplaying my character, or the talents. And by choosing one or the other, I have to also accept something that may not be at all part of the character *I* want to create.

 

I don't really see the "player focusing on one or two skills" as a problem. Yes, it's very likely that people will do on the first playthrough. But there could be alot of playthroughs following that one. I like to experiment more with character-building systems after I've done my initial playthrough, and maybe spreading my points differently when I know more about the system. In Fallout games, I almost always go for as diplomatic a character as I can on the first playthrough. But then I create other characters after that. Same goes for other roleplaying games, depending on what they allow or not. In TES games I almost always go for a Rogue-ish character who sneaks, backstabs and uses ranged weapons at first. Again, try other builds and skill allocation on replays. I would certainly do the same in PoE.


  • Bloody Hypocrite likes this

#26
Skie Nightfall

Skie Nightfall

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 324 posts
  • Location:Israel
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer

What's so bad about games having rules and restrictions? If every class can be anything, what's the point of classes in the first place.

TES is so different, and most of its games had a pretty stupid character design without mods.

I wonder if the grip is because skills were separated before. It makes sense to me that they are tied like this. Would you like it more if skills were prerequest for talents?


  • IndiraLightfoot, Seari and forgottenlor like this

#27
forgottenlor

forgottenlor

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 292 posts
  • Location:Vienna, Austria
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

In  a way it is more like the old I.E. system. You needed a rogue or thief and he sacrificed combat effectiveness for more skill points or lock picking/ trap finding ability). Now, though you get to choose who is your skill guy (its not linked to a particular class) and that is cool. What do you have against having a more skilled character and not maxing out every character with combat skills? I think its a good idea (though I haven't played the beta either).


  • IndiraLightfoot, Seari and JohnnySideburns like this

#28
ambrusynev

ambrusynev

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 19 posts
  • Location:Hungary
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

I would like to have a talent/skill system in PoE where I can separately select my skill points to frame the general outline of my character e.g. I want my character to be a strong but agile fighter. Then it's time to choose talents, which also give a few skill points besides the directly assigned ones, to be able to precisely chisel the final design my character eg. he is a strong, agile fighter who excels in combat and is completely useless out of combat or he is a strong and agile fighter who stands his ground in a battle, which is is job but he is also a lore-addict and is a card sharp.  


  • Bloody Hypocrite likes this

#29
Gorionsson

Gorionsson

    (2) Evoker

  • Members
  • 62 posts
  • Location:Eye of the world
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

I don't like it.

 

I can understand why they changed it, it makes the whole process simpler.

But at the end of the day, this only limits my options.


  • Namutree likes this

#30
Namutree

Namutree

    Compulsive Double Poster of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 1711 posts
  • Location:Michigan
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer

In  a way it is more like the old I.E. system. You needed a rogue or thief and he sacrificed combat effectiveness for more skill points or lock picking/ trap finding ability). Now, though you get to choose who is your skill guy (its not linked to a particular class) and that is cool. What do you have against having a more skilled character and not maxing out every character with combat skills? I think its a good idea (though I haven't played the beta either).

Everyone still gets the same amount of skill points; just now you don't get to decide how they're distributed without being shoehorned into a specific combat build. In summary; IT SUCKS!


  • Sensuki, Karkarov, Doppelschwert and 2 others like this

#31
morhilane

morhilane

    Chanter and Keeper of Truth of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 1131 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Gold Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

I didn't like the previous systems and I'm perplexed by this new one. Like a few other people said, it sucks to build the type of character you want because the skill are tied to talents and mixing combat performance with character's knowledge is kind of a miss.

 

Saying that, I like the "bundle" of skills, I just think it should be in another UI separated from talents. Kind of like perks that only increase skills values and allow for personality role-play.

Talents = combat improvement

Skill perks= personality/roleplay (skill value already affect dialog)

 

You don't have to increase a dull meter and the "skill perks" could have nice little descriptions too. I think that some of the talents could even be put there, like the slayer talents, because chance are they won't be taken often except for role-play reasons.


  • Gorionsson, Doppelschwert and Namutree like this

#32
JohnnySideburns

JohnnySideburns

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 31 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer

I think the new system makes sense, it might not be perfect but I feel it is an improvement over what we had before.

 

to say that knowledge and combat performance have nothing to do with each other is weird, it makes sense that a warrior spending his time perfecting a skill for combat gets better athletics skill cause that what happens when you train, and a wizard perfecting his spells will do a lot of research raising his lore.

 

This could be done the other way around as well, so you would have to push points into skills in order to unlock new talents and/or combat skills, (or whatever the official terminology is I get a bit confused)

 

At the very least I feel this new system is more immersive than just pushing points into conversation/interactment


  • IndiraLightfoot and Seari like this

#33
Kiel29

Kiel29

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 32 posts
  • Location:PA, USA
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

I would like to have a talent/skill system in PoE where I can separately select my skill points to frame the general outline of my character e.g. I want my character to be a strong but agile fighter. Then it's time to choose talents, which also give a few skill points besides the directly assigned ones, to be able to precisely chisel the final design my character eg. he is a strong, agile fighter who excels in combat and is completely useless out of combat or he is a strong and agile fighter who stands his ground in a battle, which is is job but he is also a lore-addict and is a card sharp.  

 

 

I do really like the idea this seems to present: A mix between the old system and this new one. Distribute fewer skill points, but points I get to allocate, then flesh it out with talents that also add some points where appropriate. It really follows the idea of this new system with the freedom wanted by everyone.

 

I do admit though it would be a much less transparent system, and maybe too obtuse.



#34
wanderon

wanderon

    Nomadic Wayfarer of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 1274 posts
  • Location:Upstate NY
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer

I have only made one character so far - (am about to rectify that) - but just from what I saw and what I read here - it occured to me that maybe we could have a mix of both - a limited number of skill points to distribute at character creation (and maybe a few more dribbled out every few levels) and keep the current implementation of skills tied to talents (and background).

 

This way you get to set your character on the path you want at creation and you can make your own choices about which is more important to your character as he/she levels by the talent/skill combo choices you make.

 

Otherwise I do like this current system well enough at the moment to have voted yes I am willing to give it a chance and see where it goes and suspect I may like more as I get used to using it.

 

I do wish we could dismiss some of the BB team and replace them with adventurers so I could create more characters more easily... :p


  • forgottenlor likes this

#35
dukefx

dukefx

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 341 posts

I have only made one character so far - (am about to rectify that) - but just from what I saw and what I read here - it occured to me that maybe we could have a mix of both - a limited number of skill points to distribute at character creation (and maybe a few more dribbled out every few levels) and keep the current implementation of skills tied to talents (and background).

 

This way you get to set your character on the path you want at creation and you can make your own choices about which is more important to your character as he/she levels by the talent/skill combo choices you make.

 

Otherwise I do like this current system well enough at the moment to have voted yes I am willing to give it a chance and see where it goes and suspect I may like more as I get used to using it.

 

I do wish we could dismiss some of the BB team and replace them with adventurers so I could create more characters more easily... :p

 

My thoughts exactly! I was thinking of allowing each character to raise a skill by 1 on every odd level (you get talents on even levels). Otherwise I'm not sure how someone is supposed to reach mechanics 11 and beyond, especially if those talents are pretty much trap setting talents. The usefulness of those is questionable.


  • forgottenlor likes this

#36
Sensuki

Sensuki

    Subway Apathist of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 9965 posts
  • Location:Australia
  • Steam:STEAM_0:1:1229809
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

This would make me dabble in mixed skills:

If the game design had an even number of unique options for mixed skills (such as "The PC must have 4 in Mechanics AND 4 in Lore to unlock this option") then I would do it ... but I haven't seen anything to encourage me doing this yet and I highly doubt there are many situations that require the PC (or NPC) to have two different skills.

Players are used to maxing something because the other option is almost never rewarded at all, or often enough to worth considering.

 

THIS IS THE PROBLEM WITH THE SKILL DESIGN - THE RPG OPTIONS. IT'S NOT THE SYSTEM.


Edited by Sensuki, 26 October 2014 - 11:07 AM.


#37
wanderon

wanderon

    Nomadic Wayfarer of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 1274 posts
  • Location:Upstate NY
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer

Pretty sure at least one of the dialoge options in the BB had two things listed for a dialoge option but it was unclear to me if you needed either or both (Int & Lore IIRC).

 

Thus far it does seem to me that they are including enough options for different skills in different dialoges or special encounters to make having a mix worthwhile but it would be useful to know if we are going to find them so high near the end game that only someone who used a max in a single skill will qualify.

 

It would be cool if the options were split as well like it takes either 16 Int or 10 Lore or a combination of both 12 Int plus 6 lore.:)



#38
Sensuki

Sensuki

    Subway Apathist of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 9965 posts
  • Location:Australia
  • Steam:STEAM_0:1:1229809
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
That's an attribute and a skill, not a skill and a skill.
  • Namutree likes this

#39
Headbomb

Headbomb

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 325 posts
  • Location:Truro, Nova Scotia
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer

Terrible, terrible design. I absolutely detest it and it crippled my enjoyment of the game to the point where I had to quit character creation 5-6 times before I forced myself to go through it saying screw the skills, I'll focus on combat. And every time I come upon a dialogue, I rage because the option I want isn't available.

 

I'm pretty sure that combat/out of combat were supposed to be separate and I'm very much in favour of such a separation. I voted 2nd option here, but really I'm open to any design which doesn't tie talents with skills in the way that it does now. I'm not opposed to a system that has talents that give bonus to skills in addition to the "core" of the talent (i.e. talent that gives +1 knockdown attempt also gives +1 athletics). I'm also not opposed to talents that only give a bonus to skills (talent that gives say +3 athletics and nothing else). But what there can't be is a system that, due to the way you want your character to be in combat, locks you out of story/dialogue/skill-based event options. There needs to be skill buying on its own (which can be supplemented by talents).

 

I had a paladin with lore and athletics maxed out before. If I want that, I need to pretty much sacrifice all the talents I actually want in favour of talents I don't want at all just so I get the right skill bonus. Or I get the talents I want, but end up with skills I don't want, like survival or mechanics. This new system is a big fat thumbs down.


  • Sensuki, Heinrich Bhaal, Bloody Hypocrite and 5 others like this

#40
bronzepoem

bronzepoem

    Kung Fu Master of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 397 posts
  • Location:China
  • Pillars of Eternity Gold Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer
In the past versions, they deleted REPAIR and combined MECHANICS.Finally they put themselves into a very awkward situation:there are only five skills,which means a 6 member team can easily max whole the skills.It jsut likes that you can easily max all the  attributes of one character.That make the skill system nonsense.There was no fun in this simple and crude system.
So in 333 version,they tired talents and skills. They want to make the skill system more complex,make players thinking,making choice. When you need to thinking in a skill system, you will find RPG pleasure.The start point is good,but the way isn't.When they made the skill system more fun,the talent system was hurt.The freedom of character building was limited.Players' creativity was limited.






Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: talents, skills, design, mechanics, lore, survival, athletics, stealth

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users