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Engagement Mechanics- Problems and Solutions

Engagement

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#21
Cubiq

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In DnD 3.5e if you wanted to move away from enemy without suffering AoO but didn't have any special way (spells, feats, tumble or some magical ability) there were two options:

1. just move without doing anything. This worked against one enemy, but additional ones that surrounded you would still get their AoO. - this can be implemented in PoE by turning on a universal ability for all classes that lets you move away from one engagement but your recovery turns on for few seconds. You will be able to break engagement from one enemy but you will not be able to do much for the duration of the recovery. 

2. go into full defense mode and move out of area. This would cause everyone around to get AoO but their chance of actually hitting you would be reduced considerably (about 20%). - this can be implemented in PoE similar to #1 but it gives a noticeable Deflection boost while also putting your character into recovery for few seconds. You can more safely move from as many engagements as you want but you will also not be able to do much for the duration of recovery. This option would also reduce your move speed while recovery is in effect.

Soo what stops the enemy from just re-engaging you when you are recovering?

 

http://www.dandwiki....:Movement_Speed

 

If you use two move actions in a round (sometimes called a “double move” action),

 

Sounds like you would need to implement a completely new turn based system for this to work, not just a round system like IE games have.

I don't think there's much chance of that. Late in development and all that.


Edited by Cubiq, 22 October 2014 - 06:58 AM.


#22
archangel979

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In DnD 3.5e if you wanted to move away from enemy without suffering AoO but didn't have any special way (spells, feats, tumble or some magical ability) there were two options:
1. just move without doing anything. This worked against one enemy, but additional ones that surrounded you would still get their AoO. - this can be implemented in PoE by turning on a universal ability for all classes that lets you move away from one engagement but your recovery turns on for few seconds. You will be able to break engagement from one enemy but you will not be able to do much for the duration of the recovery. 
2. go into full defense mode and move out of area. This would cause everyone around to get AoO but their chance of actually hitting you would be reduced considerably (about 20%). - this can be implemented in PoE similar to #1 but it gives a noticeable Deflection boost while also putting your character into recovery for few seconds. You can more safely move from as many engagements as you want but you will also not be able to do much for the duration of recovery. This option would also reduce your move speed while recovery is in effect.

Soo what stops the enemy from just re-engaging you when you are recovering?

What prevents them now? Movespeed and allies. If you are alone and fighting enemies you don't get anything from retreating anyways unless you are much, much faster.

Edited by archangel979, 22 October 2014 - 07:00 AM.


#23
Cubiq

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What prevents them now? Movespeed and allies.

Huh? You mean in PoE? Enemy's movement speed doesn't prevent them from re-engaging you now.

And who's allies, enemies or yours?



#24
Captain Shrek

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In DnD 3.5e if you wanted to move away from enemy without suffering AoO but didn't have any special way (spells, feats, tumble or some magical ability) there were two options:

1. just move without doing anything. This worked against one enemy, but additional ones that surrounded you would still get their AoO. - this can be implemented in PoE by turning on a universal ability for all classes that lets you move away from one engagement but your recovery turns on for few seconds. You will be able to break engagement from one enemy but you will not be able to do much for the duration of the recovery. 

2. go into full defense mode and move out of area. This would cause everyone around to get AoO but their chance of actually hitting you would be reduced considerably (about 20%). - this can be implemented in PoE similar to #1 but it gives a noticeable Deflection boost while also putting your character into recovery for few seconds. You can more safely move from as many engagements as you want but you will also not be able to do much for the duration of recovery. This option would also reduce your move speed while recovery is in effect.

Soo what stops the enemy from just re-engaging you when you are recovering?

 

http://www.dandwiki....:Movement_Speed

 

If you use two move actions in a round (sometimes called a “double move” action),

 

Sounds like you would need to implement a completely new turn based system for this to work, not just a round system like IE games have.

I don't think there's much chance of that. Late in development and all that.

 

 

*sigh*

 

Just to clarify: I only posted that to show what a double move is.

 

The real point was the earlier one that "sticky" mechanics does not contribute to the game. I actually asked why is it there in the first place. I wonder if someone could explain that.



#25
Hormalakh

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I don't understand your question:

 

Engagement was a mechanic in response solely to ranged attacks being OP. It's a poor hack-job answer to that, but as it stands on its own, I like engagement mechanics because if implemented correctly, it can really make for an interesting mechanic to play with.

 

As for being "sticky" as I described it, it was because getting free hits while two combatants cross each other to get to the other side of the road is a terrible and bug-ridden implementation of the core idea. Who gets to decide who gets the AoO attack? How is the player supposed to (in a RTWP game) react fast enough to make informed attentive decisions and commands when things are flying past him? Especially when 6 different characters are fighting from 1-20 different moving targets on a board? Let's not talk about the obstructive FX that clutter up that whole battle and bugs that don't even let us see how it's *actually supposed* to work...

 

now i'm rambling.


Edited by Hormalakh, 22 October 2014 - 08:37 AM.


#26
archangel979

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What prevents them now? Movespeed and allies.

Huh? You mean in PoE? Enemy's movement speed doesn't prevent them from re-engaging you now.
And who's allies, enemies or yours?
yes in poe. If you are faster once you exit they cannot engage until you stop if they keep following. Just like in my example.
And of course I mean your allies. You disengage and move to back lines and your allies engage those that follow just like in my example based on dnd AoO.

both systems work same once you disengage, difference is that my suggestion lets you disengage without special class abilities in exchange for only being able to move and not attack right after which prevents ranged characters from abusing this to kite.

#27
Namutree

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I don't understand your question:

 

Engagement was a mechanic in response solely to ranged attacks being OP. 

Wouldn't it have been easier to just make a lot of enemies resistant to ranged attacks?


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#28
Hormalakh

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I don't understand your question:

 

Engagement was a mechanic in response solely to ranged attacks being OP. 

Wouldn't it have been easier to just make a lot of enemies resistant to ranged attacks?

 

 

Like I said, "poor hack-job answer to that." But the mechanic can be interesting in combat.



#29
Sensuki

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I don't understand your question:
 
Engagement was a mechanic in response solely to ranged attacks being OP.


No it was put in to give units (most principally the AI) an easy way of stopping people running past the front line to get to the backline characters. This is not as much of a problem for players because you can use positioning and movement combined with knowledge of what breaks AI clauses to stop this (in the IE games anyway), player characters can bumrush AI backline characters, force ranged characters to switch to melee weapons so they deal less damage, get right up in the face of the squishy Wizard etc.

I don't think this is a problem, and rushing to the backline is not always the ideal thing to do depending on what game you're playing/what encounter it is. Smart encounter design and AI Spellcasting/Ability use should alleviate most of these issues, tbh.

#30
Cubiq

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I think the reason that kiting worked so well in IE games is mainly because the weapon speed was bugged.

You usually need to run in circles for kiting to work and since the enemy literally cuts corners they eventually do catch up. However it was made so that even if they reach you, they usually wouldn't swing immediately. And even if the did manage to perform a swing animation, if your character was already running away again it would instantly miss.

I think that if they fixed that and made it so the moment enemy reached you, they would be able to score a hit, you wouldn't be able to get away with so much.


Edited by Cubiq, 22 October 2014 - 10:16 AM.


#31
Sensuki

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This shouldn't be as big of a problem in Pillars of Eternity because the game does not have weapon speed factors/any kind of initiative system. Characters do play attack animations automatically as soon as they are in range. That said I did not mind the IE style where there was a delay before swings, even if it made kiting possible, it had a nice feel to it.

Edited by Sensuki, 22 October 2014 - 10:17 AM.


#32
Cubiq

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Yeah i saw the video of the random delay in movement. I get what you mean.



#33
Sensuki

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No no, I mean with the weapon attacks. PE should have a random short delay in movement, for the purposes of de-syncing the droid army walk.
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#34
Namutree

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This shouldn't be as big of a problem in Pillars of Eternity because the game does not have weapon speed factors/any kind of initiative system. Characters do play attack animations automatically as soon as they are in range. That said I did not mind the IE style where there was a delay before swings, even if it made kiting possible, it had a nice feel to it.

Not to mention that adding a longer delay before you can move after attacking to projectiles could easily solve the problem.



#35
Sensuki

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Kiting with bows is not an issue though, who on earth does that? You generally kite enemies around with melee characters while ranged units stand still and apply a pounding.
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#36
Sarex

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Someone in Obsidian has been playing too much MOBA and not enough IE games...



#37
Namutree

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Do you guys have any ideas beyond feedback to fix the engagement system? I agree that it's very flawed and wasn't really needed, but I don't want this to be a thread where we all just repeat that it was a bad idea. I can't really think of any ideas to fix it, but maybe you guys can.

 

So, what now?



#38
Sensuki

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I have one, but I want to work on it first, including the pseudocode before I say anything.
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#39
archangel979

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Do you guys have any ideas beyond feedback to fix the engagement system? I agree that it's very flawed and wasn't really needed, but I don't want this to be a thread where we all just repeat that it was a bad idea. I can't really think of any ideas to fix it, but maybe you guys can.

 

So, what now?

I presented my solutions. It keeps a penalty for those disengaging forcefully but also lets everyone leave if they use more careful options.



#40
Cubiq

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I have one, but I want to work on it first, including the pseudocode before I say anything.

 

Although i don't think Sawyer said it personally it really does feel like kiting is the bane of his life.

Engagement mechanic + no attack recovery while movement + a lot of the enemies being faster than you

I think that if we ignore the kiting "problem" they won't even consider it.

(hopefully not)


Edited by Cubiq, 22 October 2014 - 11:04 AM.

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