Jump to content

Welcome to Obsidian Forum Community
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Please, No Lockpick or Trap-Disarm XP!

experience xp traps lockpicking mechanics skills

  • Please log in to reply
118 replies to this topic

Poll: Trap and Lockpick XP Poll (116 member(s) have cast votes)

Should picking locks and disarming traps--both Mechanics skill checks--award experience points, even though no other XP pools are strictly bound to a specific skill?

  1. Yes (56 votes [48.28%])

    Percentage of vote: 48.28%

  2. No (60 votes [51.72%])

    Percentage of vote: 51.72%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#21
wanderon

wanderon

    Nomadic Wayfarer of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 1273 posts
  • Location:Upstate NY
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer

Just popping in to say please, please no lock or trap XP. It's a holdover from the IE games that doesn't fit with PoE's XP philosophy. Not only does it tie optimal XP gains to a specific skill, but it also leads to very non-immersive play as your party runs around, compulsively unlocking everything in sight for the sweet, sweet XP nectar.

 

Just please... no.

 

And again I say exactly how many locks and traps do you think people will ONLY unlock / disarm becuase they get a bit of experience vs the number they will simply unlock/disarm normally in the course of the game - literally every lock and trap is placed in the game so that someone needs to unlock/disarm it for some gameplay reason - they are not out in the back room adding scores of pointless locks and traps just because it's Thurday and it sounded like a fun day...

 

As for PoEs philosophy it is the developers that are suggesting this - aren't they the ones who sort of put that philosophy together and implement it in their game?


  • GreyFox and lordkim like this

#22
Hiro Protagonist II

Hiro Protagonist II

    Ysbryd rhydd of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 2582 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Gold Backer

Just popping in to say please, please no lock or trap XP. It's a holdover from the IE games that doesn't fit with PoE's XP philosophy. Not only does it tie optimal XP gains to a specific skill, but it also leads to very non-immersive play as your party runs around, compulsively unlocking everything in sight for the sweet, sweet XP nectar.

 

Just please... no.

 

The PoE XP philosophy? What would that be? I didn't know there was one.



#23
Cantousent

Cantousent

    Forum Moderator

  • Validating
  • 5895 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Gold Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer

There is a stated philosophy from actually quite a while ago, perhaps even while the kickstarter was still going.



#24
Hiro Protagonist II

Hiro Protagonist II

    Ysbryd rhydd of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 2582 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Gold Backer

Hopefully, someone can post this philosophy and see how lock/trap xp goes against it. I'm genuinely curious about this.



#25
Cantousent

Cantousent

    Forum Moderator

  • Validating
  • 5895 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Gold Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer

I've seen it somewheres, but I can't remember where to find it now and I'm too lazy to look.  I might check into it later if someone else doesn't post it for you.  :Cant's wry grin icon:



#26
Tamerlane

Tamerlane

    (8) Warlock

  • Members
  • 1125 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer

I'd vote in the poll but I'm busy clearing out an enormous minefield in Wasteland 2 for EXP.


  • Gfted1, Cantousent, wanderon and 8 others like this

#27
Cantousent

Cantousent

    Forum Moderator

  • Validating
  • 5895 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Gold Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer

"I've greatly enjoyed Wasteland 2.  Yeah, I don't like the way everything grants XP, but that's what the game does.  I'd hope that, whatever happens with PoE, folks will fairly evaluate the game based on how fun it is, regardless of how hard they fought for any particular position.  I'll even just pretend romances aren't part of the game if Obsidz makes a long and elaborate romance line.

 

Anyhow, while I like the game, trap XP is a perfect example of working the system.  Now, aside from the fact that what's in the chest or what's behind the door virtually always makes the XP from picking the lock completely irrelevant and is plenty reward in and of itself, and disarming the trap on such locks prevents wounding the characters and possibly destroying the contents, which makes it a no brainer to do and I'd do it without *any* XP, there are areas in the game with a lot of traps.  Many many traps.  Now, disarming any particular trap might be beneficial.  So, since you would gladly walk over the trap and take the damage if they didn't reward you with XP for disarming it, they must grant XP.  Even worse, there are times when, from a role playing perspective, you might want to leave some of those traps.  For example, if there's an area to which you've gained access, from a story perspective, you might want to leave a healthy number of traps in place to dissuade other folks from trying to access the same area.  ...But even worse than that, there are times when you can actually take advantage of the traps.  For example, you're fighting frogs or wolves or whatnot and you can draw them through the mine field to attack you.  It actually works pretty well.  Shoot them full of holes while they run at you and watch them get blown up trying to close.  However, since the mobs aren't all that hard, at least on Ranger level, and you can be pretty damned proficient at explosives, you get more benefit from those traps.  It doesn't make me hate the game, but it does show how the design encourages the player to act in a counter-intuitive manner.

 

As much as I don't want kill XP, and that's a lot, I find trap/lock XP outright insulting."

 

EDIT:  Technically, it's a quote, so I still needed the quotation marks.


Edited by Cantousent, 16 October 2014 - 08:58 PM.


#28
IndiraLightfoot

IndiraLightfoot

    Apex of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 5517 posts
  • Location:Over the Hills and Far Away
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

As I like xp overall, and voted yes to all in that other poll, I had to stay true to form and vote yes. I do agree, though, that it's very weird to include lock pick and trap disarm xp out of all things, when encounter xp, or even convo xp, sneak xp, crafting xp and kill xp, would have been more logical - since these much better reflect what the game is about. I know the devs at one time said that they don't want to reward "body count". Perhaps I'm daft, but isn't those bestiary xp a body count if there ever was one? And since when did chest count and spring mechanism count outweigh body count in a CRPG? :p


Edited by IndiraLightfoot, 16 October 2014 - 10:12 PM.

  • Hiro Protagonist likes this

#29
Doppelschwert

Doppelschwert

    Sword Enthusiast of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 1032 posts
  • Location:Germany
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

 

 

Arent there lock picks in the game?

These don't bypass the Mechanics skill check, if I understand correctly. And what about traps?

 

 

TBH, I don't know what picks do. I assumed they added some amount of (+) to whatever check is used to pick a lock thus lessening the Mechanics skill "requirement". Traps would still be a problem though.

 

 

As far as I know, that is correct. Conceptionally it's really just the same as lockpicks in DnD.

 

I'd vote in the poll but I'm busy clearing out an enormous minefield in Wasteland 2 for EXP.

 

That's the reason why I voted 'no'. Also it contributed to me stop caring about wasteland 2 and stop playing it.


  • Cantousent likes this

#30
Skie Nightfall

Skie Nightfall

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 323 posts
  • Location:Israel
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer

I like it, but it's a question of what fits the xp system of the game.



#31
Starwars

Starwars

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 3190 posts
  • Location:Sweden
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer

I'm not opposed to it, but it really depends on what the game-devs want for the overall experience. Wasteland 2 gives XP for pretty much everything, your character could fart and it'd give XP. I think that's fine because in WL2 there's such an abundance of stuff to get XP from (whether the act of using the skills a million times is actually *fun* is another discussion...), whereas I don't quite get this feeling from PoE.

 

Overall, I think I'd prefer it if they keep the "objective based" XP they were going with from the start, but chop up the XP as much as they can for smaller mini-goals where indeed unlocking a certain door, talking down a person, sneaking past something, whatever, could yield XP if it's accomplishing a particular goal.

 

But, like I said, I'm not really opposed to the idea of unlocking giving XP period. But if that's the case, then there will probably be other areas also that needs "boosting" in terms of XP, various skill usage situations and so forth. I don't want to be in a place where, as others have pointed out, I feel the need to unlock stuff just to milk the game's XP.



#32
NegativeEdge

NegativeEdge

    (3) Conjurer

  • Members
  • 107 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer

Hopefully, someone can post this philosophy and see how lock/trap xp goes against it. I'm genuinely curious about this.

 

Only thing that comes to mind, and I'm paraphrasing here, but they've said the game will have "The epic scope of Baldur's Gate, The tactical combat of Icewind Dale and the thematically rich storytelling of Planescape: Torment".

 

So yeah, nothing that precludes locks or traps giving XP.



#33
Hassat Hunter

Hassat Hunter

    Royal Bug Catcher of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 5992 posts
  • Location:Out there, somewhere...
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

No, no, no, NO

 

Haven't Obsidian learned from Baldur's Gate II or their own Knights of the Old Republic II that adding XP to picking locks or disarming mines/traps is one of the WORST possible XP benefits to give.

Just look up that Telos minefield and you can see what's wrong right away.

 

Have demolition skill? = FREE LEVELUP (what the? That's a trap?)

Don't have demolition skill = Too bad for you.

 

Anyone thinking "darn, that's a trap"... nope, just about the XP. Thanks to the horrid game decision of adding XP to doing so.

 

An even worse example would be Deus Ex (which PoE should base itself on!) and Deus Ex: Human Revolution, where the XP to hacking made getting a key detremental. If that doesn't make you scratch your head and say "what?" nothing will.

 

All in all, adding this would be heavily detrimental to roleplaying, would make seemingly "better" options (finding the key, or pressing a disarm button for example) worse since you miss out the experience of doing it the "worse alternative" way. That just doesn't make sense. And should under no circumstances be a repeat error of past mistakes.


  • curryinahurry, Sensuki, Matt516 and 2 others like this

#34
war:head

war:head

    (2) Evoker

  • Members
  • 70 posts
  • Location:Germany
  • Steam:-warhead-3Z-
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

Quote from J.E.Sawyer (full post), emphasis added:

 

Adding in minor bestiary, exploration, lock, and trap XP rewards to increase the regularity of XP rewards across the game. 

 

That part in italics seems misguided, for a very simple reason: Disarming traps and picking locks is a Mechanics skill check. Therefore, reaping all XP rewards will require a Mechanics-focused character in your party. None of the other sources of XP require specific skill focus.

Personally I couldn't care less about the fact that some XP sources require a certain skill but with adding XP for traps and locks, any justification for not giving XP for combat is out of the window.

 

Using a tool to open a lock gets you experience, using a tool to kill an enemy does not? Yeah, right.


  • Namutree likes this

#35
Karkarov

Karkarov

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 3116 posts
  • Steam:Karkarov
  • PSN Portable ID:Karkarov
  • Xbox Gamertag:Karkarov
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Watcher
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

 

This thread is so biased that i want to pick yes just to be annoying though i too don't really approve of unlock/disarm trap xp.

 

You don't have to worry it seem that the majority of players don't want it, so no need to control the mass by sneaky polls...

I shared my own opinion, which is indeed biased :)

You do realize that when you have a biased opinion and create a biased poll it also completely invalidates any results your poll has right?

 

Personally, I don't care if it is in game or not.  It isn't that big a deal to me as I think anyone who isn't an idiot will have at least one high mechanics character to begin with.  I do agree with Matt's points from the previous page though.  It seems counter to the basic XP philosophy of the game.


Edited by Karkarov, 17 October 2014 - 06:31 AM.

  • Sir Newbie likes this

#36
PrimeHydra

PrimeHydra

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 322 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer

You do realize that when you have a biased opinion and create a biased poll it also completely invalidates any results your poll has right?

If I could still edit the post, I'd reword the question to sound more neutral. But this is a forum, not a closed ballot--I'm certainly allowed to post my vote and explanations for it. If anything, I did my cause a disservice because people like to troll-vote just to piss off a slanted OP :)

 

Furthermore, it would be ridiculous for me to think this is any kind of representative sample (even if the wording were unbiased). It is a means of prompting discussion and nothing more. By no means do I intend it to be statistically valid.

 

...I think anyone who isn't an idiot will have at least one high mechanics character to begin with.

That's a little insulting to anyone who wants to experiment with not having a mechanic. Maybe they don't want to dedicate a slot to a character whose main utility is dealing with traps, unlocking locks--and now, grabbing bonus XP. A character for whom they mindlessly click the [+] next to Mechanics whenever they level up, because it'd be crazy not to.

 

It's easy enough to forgo the other four skills, or distribute their points in a more balanced fashion--because those skills won't be tied to hard-gated XP pools. With trap and lock XP in place, skipping Mechanics becomes even more punishing than it already is--making players less likely to try braving a dungeon without it. I think Obsidian wants players to build parties without feeling railroaded into specific choices. That's why, for example, they are against dump stats.

 

Is this a huge deal? No. Will I play the game, regardless? Of course. But the same could be said for any number of design decisions that we discuss on this forum.


Edited by PrimeHydra, 17 October 2014 - 07:36 AM.


#37
Ink Blot

Ink Blot

    Incorrigible Mountebank of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 1231 posts
  • Location:Some Backwater in the Orion Arm
  • Pillars of Eternity Gold Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

I'd vote in the poll but I'm busy clearing out an enormous minefield in Wasteland 2 for EXP.

LOL - I just did that last night! My Demolitions expert grabbed about 500 XP in one area just on disarming mines. I can certainly see why many people are against this.

 

But honestly, there have been so many arguments about the way XP are/could be/should be given out in PoE that I'm beginning to not care anymore. In the end, it comes down to: are you the type of player that's going to farm every last XP no matter what, or are you just going to play the game and enjoy it as you go without worrying that you may have missed 5 or 6 XP in the last area?



#38
Ink Blot

Ink Blot

    Incorrigible Mountebank of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 1231 posts
  • Location:Some Backwater in the Orion Arm
  • Pillars of Eternity Gold Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

 

It's easy enough to forgo the other four skills, or distribute their points in a more balanced fashion


 

But is it? I have a feeling this game is going to shake out like Wasteland 2 in that it's going to be all or nothing. Don't get me wrong, I'm loving Wasteland 2 (hell, I can't seem to stop playing it, even when I should be doing other things), but it suffers from the same thing that most other games with skill checks suffer from: as you get to higher levels, the skill checks get more and more difficult, so if you don't keep maxing the skill, it becomes useless as the game progresses. I can't really see PoE being any different.

 

So that again begs the question: is it really going to be feasible or effective to evenly distribute the skills as opposed to maxing them?


  • PrimeHydra likes this

#39
PrimeHydra

PrimeHydra

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 322 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer

So that again begs the question: is it really going to be feasible or effective to evenly distribute the skills as opposed to maxing them?

I wish it could be. But even if we go with the assumption that each character should max a skill, this makes it more desirable to always have a "mechanic". Getting through the game without a specialist in any of the other skills, sounds a lot less painful. I can easily see a party without an Athlete or a Loremaster; but no Mechanics? Now we not only get stung by traps and locked out of chests, we miss experience points. Isn't this skill desirable enough without that last bit?

 

You raise an excellent point, though, one that deserves its own thread: What's the point of multiple skill points, or even of getting the choice to dump points into different skills, if maxing out is the only viable path?  There are a number of solutions to this, such as limiting the number of points you can put into any given skill per level (e.g., two out of the five--or whatever the number is--skill points awarded when leveling). With six character slots and only five skills, though, not maxing one skill per toon seems pointless.

 

I would love to see a system where well-rounded characters have their own appeal. Multi-classing in the D&D-based IE games was really interesting because it let you do more things with any one character--at the cost of not doing them as well as a specialist.

 

They did say there will be more character progression options in the next patch. Let's see what develops!


Edited by PrimeHydra, 17 October 2014 - 08:26 AM.


#40
Ink Blot

Ink Blot

    Incorrigible Mountebank of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 1231 posts
  • Location:Some Backwater in the Orion Arm
  • Pillars of Eternity Gold Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
I wish it could be. But even if we go with the assumption that each character should max a skill, this makes it more desirable to always have a "mechanic". Getting through the game without a specialist in any of the other skills, sounds a lot less painful. I can easily see a party without an Athlete or a Loremaster; but no Mechanics? Now we not only get stung by traps and locked out of chests, we miss experience pools. Isn't this skill desirable enough without that last bit?

 

You raise an excellent point, though, one that deserves its own thread: What's the point of multiple skill points, or even of getting the choice to dump points into different skills, if maxing out is the only viable path?  There are a number of solutions to this, such as limiting the number of points you can put into any given skill per level (e.g., two out of the five--or whatever the number is--skill points awarded when leveling).

 

I would love to see a system where well-rounded characters have appeal. Multi-classing in the D&D-based IE games was really interesting because it let you do a greater variety of things with one character--at the price of not doing them as well as the specialists.

 

You're assuming the player won't get XP for using, say, Lore in convos or certain situations. If we do, then doesn't that argument apply to Lore as well? (i.e. that Lore is more desirable).

 

Problem with limiting the number of points per level is twofold (and maybe more):

1) this means no high level skill checks unless the intent is to make the player come back again later when at a higher level or once again the checks are so high (compared to the player's possible skill level at that point) that you have to max the skill (to the point the restrictions allow) anyway to be able to pass. Or the skill checks are so trivially easy that they're inconsequential.

 

2) you'll have a whole contingent of players complaining they can't make a specialist character and are forced to build their character a different way than they want to because they're either forced to dump points into a skill they don't want or they end up not spending them and are getting a pool of 'useless' skill points.

 

I think the better - although not ideal - solution is similar to Wasteland 2 in that you can attempt a skill check with lower skill values, but there's an increasingly large chance of failure (and critical failure) if your skill level is below the target threshold. But this does, of course, 'promote' save-scumming. But I think at some point the devs have to stop worrying about how the players are going to bypass certain challenges and stop worrying about 'degenerative' game play if it's something the player has to consciously choose to participate in.

I mean, the way I see it: XP for traps and locks? I don't care. Does that mean that some players will max out Mechanics and then disarm every trap and search out every lock just to get every last possible XP? Yes, it does. Who cares? It's a single player game and they're choosing to play it how they want. Same with save-scumming. Same with XP for kills. It's the player's choice to do that.

 

Meh, like I said I'm getting so sick of the angst surrounding XP awards in this game that I'm starting to not really give a crap how they decide to do it.


  • IndiraLightfoot likes this





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: experience, xp, traps, lockpicking, mechanics, skills

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users