Jump to content

Welcome to Obsidian Forum Community
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Combat XP - What Just Happened..?


  • Please log in to reply
436 replies to this topic

Poll: What Just Happened (280 member(s) have cast votes)

What Sources of Xp Do you think are justified?

  1. Combat (152 votes [11.44%])

    Percentage of vote: 11.44%

  2. Quests (264 votes [19.86%])

    Percentage of vote: 19.86%

  3. 'Objectives' (Finishing Part of a Quest) (233 votes [17.53%])

    Percentage of vote: 17.53%

  4. Lock Picking / Trap Disabling (118 votes [8.88%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.88%

  5. Exploration (207 votes [15.58%])

    Percentage of vote: 15.58%

  6. Specific Combat Scenarios - Bosses or Special Encounters (197 votes [14.82%])

    Percentage of vote: 14.82%

  7. Bestiary Unlocking (With Limited XP To Be Gained) (158 votes [11.89%])

    Percentage of vote: 11.89%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#41
Namutree

Namutree

    Compulsive Double Poster of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 1711 posts
  • Location:Michigan
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer

 

Also, "Exploration" XP is pretty vague and different people will think of different things when reading it - it might have been useful to break it down into multiple concrete options, such a

Exactly.

 

 

  • "Clearing fog of war"

Bad

 

 

 

  • "Discovering special landmarks"
  • "Completing scripted interactions"

Good.


  • Malekith, Ineth, Matt516 and 1 other like this

#42
PrimeJunta

PrimeJunta

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 4900 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer

If they mean that clearing all the fog on the map gives xp or entering a house gives xp than I'm against it.


Eek, yes, no, that would be an express ticket to OCD-ville. No thanks!
  • Ieo, Karkarov, JFSOCC and 4 others like this

#43
Namutree

Namutree

    Compulsive Double Poster of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 1711 posts
  • Location:Michigan
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer

Combat xp is surprisingly low. Right now it's barely beating lock-picking/ trap-disabling.



#44
lolaldanee

lolaldanee

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 317 posts
  • Location:Bavaria superior
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

 

If they mean that clearing all the fog on the map gives xp or entering a house gives xp than I'm against it.


Eek, yes, no, that would be an express ticket to OCD-ville. No thanks!

 

agreed,

this would be even worse than lockpicking, which tbh is outright stupid



#45
Hiro Protagonist II

Hiro Protagonist II

    Ysbryd rhydd of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 2582 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Gold Backer

Combat xp is surprisingly low. Right now it's barely beating lock-picking/ trap-disabling.

 

One reason is if you have someone who wants both combat xp and quest xp like the IE games, they'll vote for both. if you have someone who votes for quest xp and not combat xp, they'll vote for quest xp. So quest xp will always get a vote in those circumstances and be higher. It's no surprise quest xp has a lot of votes because it's catering to the combat xp people too.


  • Gorionsson, Sarex, adam77 and 2 others like this

#46
Namutree

Namutree

    Compulsive Double Poster of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 1711 posts
  • Location:Michigan
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer

 

Combat xp is surprisingly low. Right now it's barely beating lock-picking/ trap-disabling.

 

One reason is if you have someone who wants both combat xp and quest xp like the IE games, they'll vote for both. if you have someone who votes for quest xp and not combat xp, they'll vote for quest xp. So quest xp will always get a vote in those circumstances and be higher. It's no surprise quest xp has a lot of votes because it's catering to the combat xp people too.

 

I'm not comparing it to quest-xp. I expected quest-xp to be high. I just didn't expect combat to be so low. Everything except lock-picking is beating it. I guess combat-xp is really unpopular on the forum.



#47
Sensuki

Sensuki

    Subway Apathist of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 9965 posts
  • Location:Australia
  • Steam:STEAM_0:1:1229809
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
Also if there are encounters that give XP for fighting, you should probably get the same XP for resolving the conflict in a non-violent way as well.
  • Ieo, IndiraLightfoot, Malekith and 2 others like this

#48
Ineth

Ineth

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 643 posts
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

Btw am I the only one who thinks it sucks how the forum software presents the results of this poll (and similar ones)? It shows the votes for each category as a percentage of the sum of all yes-votes cast -- which, in a poll where choosing multiple options is allowed, is pretty meaningless.

 

Instead, it should be treating each checkbox-option as a separate yes/no (checked/unchecked) question, and show the choices as a percentage of the number of poll participants. Like this:

 

3GWOj8D.png


Edited by Ineth, 07 October 2014 - 03:52 AM.

  • wanderon, Suen, lolaldanee and 7 others like this

#49
Elerond

Elerond

    One of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 2649 posts
  • Location:Finland
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

Also if there are encounters that give XP for fighting, you should probably get the same XP for resolving the conflict in a non-violent way as well.

 

If those encounters in Dyrford village, encounter with ogre and encounter with cultist leader give any inclination how encounters are designed in rest of the game then that is already the case.

 

Addition Bestiary XP can cause light change to this as I don't think that there is, at least currently, peaceful way to fill your bestiary.



#50
Sensuki

Sensuki

    Subway Apathist of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 9965 posts
  • Location:Australia
  • Steam:STEAM_0:1:1229809
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
I know there's some extra peaceful options with the Ogre that aren't currently in the game.

#51
PrimeJunta

PrimeJunta

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 4900 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer
Nice graph, @Ineth. Does give a much clearer view of the results.

#52
Gfted1

Gfted1

    Forum Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 5929 posts
  • Location:Chicago, IL
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

Im happy about the inclusion of more ways to earn xp.


  • forgottenlor and PrimeHydra like this

#53
Suen

Suen

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 399 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

Voted 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7

Not sure about traps/lockpicks. Bestiary, only as long as it's a small xp bonus.

 

I'm not playing the beta, so I don't have a precise idea of how the bestiary works at this moment.

What I'd like too see it's for the bestiary entries to unlock combat bonus. You know more about the monsters, you should be able to fight them better.
And you could get poison/antidotes/potions/crafting recipes.  Extra encounters "you can now track this kind of creature...".

The bestiary page should be unlocked progressively, to allow different reward tiers.

Stuff you could need if you fight often, or fight often certain creatures, negligible if you don't.


Edited by Suen, 07 October 2014 - 04:38 AM.

  • Sir Newbie likes this

#54
archangel979

archangel979

    (11) Wizard

  • Members
  • 1617 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer

Also if there are encounters that give XP for fighting, you should probably get the same XP for resolving the conflict in a non-violent way as well.

Is there a peaceful way to defeat the spider queen? 


  • PrimeHydra likes this

#55
IndiraLightfoot

IndiraLightfoot

    Apex of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 5576 posts
  • Location:Over the Hills and Far Away
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

The big burning question is: If you took all of them backers, 70,000+ peeps, and had them play the beta. How many would react negatively surprised at finding that there is no kill xp?

 

Even some of the critics of PoE lacking kill xp on these forums are still pretty big OE fans.

I have an eerie feeling that there are tens of thousands that instantly would be taken aback by this and complain that the gameplay in between quests feels empty and unrewarding somehow. Good thing that Josh & Co, and obviously Paradox, are already aware of this and are attempting to insert a similarly rewarding system.

 

Unfortunately, it's very strange to pick lock xp, trap xp and "kill x monsters and get xp"-bestiary fill-up to "solve" the issue of kill xp.

Like many have already emphasized in this thread: encounter xp (not just special encounter xp), and let player solve their own encounters, the way the want to, and reward them for it every time.


  • Sarex and PrimeHydra like this

#56
Sensuki

Sensuki

    Subway Apathist of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 9965 posts
  • Location:Australia
  • Steam:STEAM_0:1:1229809
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

Is there a peaceful way to defeat the spider queen?


Don't think so. She's a really underwhelming boss as well. The first spider encounter inside the cave is tougher than her encounter.

Unfortunately, it's very strange to pick lock xp, trap xp and "kill x monsters and get xp"-bestiary fill-up to "solve" the issue of kill xp.


Yeah I would call this derping. I can understand the bestiary XP kinda, but not the Trap/Lock XP.

Edited by Sensuki, 07 October 2014 - 05:16 AM.

  • PrimeJunta and Malekith like this

#57
Ineth

Ineth

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 643 posts
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

Yes, finally a pretty good poll. My only quibble with it would be that "Specific Combat Scenarios" is redundant as it already falls under quest or objective XP.

 

I think that option expresses the desire that special combat encounters that you can stumble on while exploring (and choose to engage in at non-negligible risk to your party and non-negligible drain to limited resources), should be rewarded without the need to have talked to a quest-giver about it first.

 

This might help to...

  • add more excitement / feel-good-moments to travelling through areas with low quest density
  • motivate players to explore the world at their own leasure and role-playing motives, rather than being railroaded into repeating the same rigid routine of "1) talk to every single villager in town, 2) go to nearby wilderness and make a bee-line for quests points, 3) return" in every town/village you travel to

In other words, it's about mixing it up a little, adding some positive surprises, and rewarding independent-minded curiosity, not just compliance with things you're told to do by NPCs.

 

PS: The spider queen in the BB would be one possible example of such an encounter.


  • Suen, PrimeJunta, Zansatsu and 1 other like this

#58
morhilane

morhilane

    Chanter and Keeper of Truth of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 1131 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Gold Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

The big burning question is: If you took all of them backers, 70,000+ peeps, and had them play the beta. How many would react negatively surprised at finding that there is no kill xp?

 

Probably a lot less than you think.

 

Outside of these forums, the only people I've seen cry over not combat XP are people who do not have access to the beta. The people, I know who played the beta didn't even realize there was no combat XP, myself included.


  • curryinahurry likes this

#59
Karkarov

Karkarov

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 3116 posts
  • Steam:Karkarov
  • PSN Portable ID:Karkarov
  • Xbox Gamertag:Karkarov
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Watcher
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

What is the point of this poll?  What sources of XP are justified?  The only correct answer is all of them, because all of them can be justified as sources of exp.  I could justify my character gaining exp from brushing his teeth.  Just because something is "justified" doesn't mean your game design has to include it.  If you are going to make a poll make one that is fair and unbiased, not one that is about pushing your agenda, which seems to have backfired this time regardless.



#60
PrimeHydra

PrimeHydra

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 322 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer

I'm not as aghast as some at the inclusion of trap-disarm and lock-pick XP. Obsidian are trying to solve a problem: Mitigate the drought of reward between quests. This is a real issue. I felt keenly while playing the backer beta. There are a lot of encounters, a lot of time spent away from quest givers (aka experience dispensers) with no progress to show for it.

 

A combination of exploration, trap, and lockpick XP will at least give us something for our troubles, some cookie crumbs to encourage us while we work toward the jumbo chocolate chip that is our current quest. Those little rewards sound hokey in concept, but in practice they're better than waiting to arrive to in town, collapse across the finish line, then get a massive XP chunk. That might work in pen-and-paper scenarios, where imagination and camaraderie overshadow content and reward, but it's too punitive for computer games.

 

The IE titles solved this by awarding experience for combat. Obsidian can't do this due to expectations set forth in kickstarter:

 

Avoiding combat does not lead to less experience gain. You shouldn't go up levels any slower by using your non-combat skills rather than your combat skills. We plan to reward you for your accomplishments, not for your body count. 

 

So, how do you sprinkle experience into your game without reneging on this promise? Well, what are the options? Exploration, traps, and locks are obvious choices. There are probably others as well, like crafting something you haven't made before.

 

Design is a series of tradeoffs. There is a cost to decoupling combat from experience. It doesn't come for free. You have to provide another source of incremental progress to the player. If you don't, well, you've sacrificed fun for RPG purity. Is that really worth it? Player reaction and Metacritic will answer for you.

 

We should be less concerned with what is the "right RPG thing to do", the "purest and most consistent design", and more with what will make PoE a more engaging experience. I agree that a quest-only experience system is more consistent than one which rewards the player for little things, too. But it's dry, and it's dull. I'm glad Obsidian realized this.


Edited by PrimeHydra, 07 October 2014 - 07:31 AM.

  • Gfted1, IndiraLightfoot, Sarex and 2 others like this




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users