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Combat XP - What Just Happened..?


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Poll: What Just Happened (280 member(s) have cast votes)

What Sources of Xp Do you think are justified?

  1. Combat (152 votes [11.44%])

    Percentage of vote: 11.44%

  2. Quests (264 votes [19.86%])

    Percentage of vote: 19.86%

  3. 'Objectives' (Finishing Part of a Quest) (233 votes [17.53%])

    Percentage of vote: 17.53%

  4. Lock Picking / Trap Disabling (118 votes [8.88%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.88%

  5. Exploration (207 votes [15.58%])

    Percentage of vote: 15.58%

  6. Specific Combat Scenarios - Bosses or Special Encounters (197 votes [14.82%])

    Percentage of vote: 14.82%

  7. Bestiary Unlocking (With Limited XP To Be Gained) (158 votes [11.89%])

    Percentage of vote: 11.89%

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#401
Namutree

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Changing to combat xp is a major overhaul NOT a tweak.

A change in design philosophy, in fact. But unlike Namutree, I don't believe Obsidian can take it all the way. Not by release time at least. There's far more involved in making a total switch to combat XP than simply assigning XP values to all the enemies. There's also the matter of balancing the entire game from beginning to end to account for the switch, unless they think it's no big deal if players end up hitting the level cap halfway through the game. due to the thousands upon thousands of additional experience points they gained from every enemy kill.

 

I hope you're wrong Stun...



#402
wanderon

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Changing to combat xp is a major overhaul NOT a tweak.

A change in design philosophy, in fact. But unlike Namutree, I don't believe Obsidian can take it all the way. Not by release time at least. There's far more involved in making a total switch to combat XP than simply assigning XP values to all the enemies. There's also the matter of balancing the entire game from beginning to end to account for the switch, unless they think it's no big deal if players end up hitting the level cap halfway through the game. due to the thousands upon thousands of additional experience points they gained from every enemy kill.

 

 

Not if they limit kill XP to a "graze"....

 

BB fighter kills Ogre

 

Party gains .00034 experience :)


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#403
Caladian

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I like that!  Let them get their combat xp, at 0.00034.  there you namutree.  Your combat xp.  Thankfully, Joshua doesn't to ever appear to be budging on degenerate gameplay.


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#404
Cantousent

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Hey, Wal-mart shoppers in Alabama are not only people, but even more, they're consumers.  ...But I don't take offense.  I sometimes indulge in other tastes before I post and I deserve whatever comes my way as a result.  :Cant's sheepish grin:

 

On *my* more serious note:  I agree in this.  People are used to something and therefore will agitate for it.  It doesn't matter if it's a better way.  There are people who never even gave the idea of not having per kill XP any chance at all.  They hated the idea sight unseen and railed against it from the very start.  There was no consideration or contemplation on the part of many of the people who desire per kill XP.  That's not reading minds.  That's counting posts and noting the dates on them.

 

Unlike trap XP, which is irritating but at least not truly significant, per kill XP will possibly be the greatest potential XP pool in the aggregate.  It will certainly be quite substantial.  I almost hope, in a somewhat spiteful way, that they include trap XP and leave out per kill XP.  Aside:  I prefer to refer to per kill XP as incidental, but I guess it's kind of down to whole nomenclature thing again.  :invokes the spirit of Gromnir:

 

In reality, I no longer have the time or stamina to lob grenades at folks in an online forum.  It is entirely an empty threat in the first place.  I mean, I was more or less trying to jest, but I might have been willing to carry on with it a bit longer in the past, but now I'll just accept whatever comes.  For one thing, I don't have a choice.  However, for me to feel good about the outcome only requires one thing:  no per kill XP.  I have always *always* expected that combat should result in XP gains.  I just think that killing any random beast shouldn't yield an XP reward.  It maybe shouldn't always yield a gameplay (or story) reward at all.  If you want to hunt down every random creature on a map, you should do it because it warms the depths of your cold murderous heart.  However, killing significant creatures should be an objective in and of itself, and I have never minded the idea of getting XP for doing so.  I think they really screwed up by making it appear that 'objective only' was 'quest only.'  Objective XP should encompass a whole slew of things that wouldn't necessarily fall under the heading of quests.

 

At any rate, we don't have to agree with everyone on these forums.  We don't even have to like each other.  I mean, I'd still probably offer a beer to any of you bastards who came to my door.  Maybe even a finger or two of something better if I really like you.  ...But this place exists to fight about these things and I'll keep posting to advocate my position as often as I get the chance and can arse myself to do it.


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#405
Stun

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I just think that killing any random beast shouldn't yield an XP reward.

Then maybe instead of arguing against the existence of kill XP you should argue against the existence of random beasts.

I'm a huge advocate of hand placed encounters. There should be an authentic, specific, in-game reason for the existence and placement of every enemy in this game. Because that would eliminate 90% of the gripes people seem to have against kill XP.
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#406
Hiro Protagonist II

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I just think that killing any random beast shouldn't yield an XP reward. 

 

That's exactly what's happening with Bestiary XP. And I can't fathom why people against Combat xp are all for Bestiary XP with killing random beasts all over the maps that can be avoided.

 

The Lions in Stormwall Gorge are a classic example of 'random beasts' that you can avoid. In fact, at the start of the game, you can immediately go to Stormwall Gorge because you start right at the edge of the map next to Stormwall Gorge, kill the 6 lions which make up half of the enemies on that map, get some really easy xp rewards and then go back to Dyrford before you even speak to anyone. It's an easy less than 5 minute kill spree. They're practically begging to be killed for some easy xp rewards.

 

The wolves in the bottom corner of the Dyrford Crossing map is another example. Totally avoidable and you can walk (stealth) right past them. But why not kill them? They're just as easy as the lions. Prior to Bestiary XP, I didn't bother with them. Now, they give XP rewards. Same with the Wurms in Dyrford Crossing. Totally avoidable and now you can kill 6 of them and get rewarded.


Edited by Hiro Protagonist II, 28 October 2014 - 02:30 PM.


#407
Cantousent

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...And folks should get XP no matter how they handle those 'hand picked' encounters.  Some might require combat.  Some might require diplomacy.  Some might be avoidable and yet accomplish the same thing.  That's the definition of objective XP as far as I'm concerned.  The obstacles matter more than the methods.  I just don't want them to get bogged down with the whole "you have to have multiple ways of accomplishing the same goal."  Sometimes, the only way to save the cheerleader is to kill the bad guy.  I have no problem with that.

 

I don't know how feasible it is to do away with random encounters with the current design.  Personally, I think we're going to have a lot of 'random' encounters and wandering fillermonsters, placeholderbeasts, and fodderfiends.  I'm not even sure that's bad as long as we don't end up slogging through such memorable encounters as "English Longswordsman" who a tough, relentless, and boring as hell.

 

Two things about the bestiary:  once you've filled out the bestiary, you have no more incentive to hunt lions.  It is a specific amount of experience for killing a limited population within the entire pool.  In the aggregate, it is not nearly as significant as racking up XP for each individual kill.  Second, I keep hoping they put in other ways to fill the beastiary, from killing to observing, to talking, to who knows what.  Now, when arguing with any of these statements, please at least nod that I'm not a huge fan of the beastiary from a design point of view.  If it means that they confine the XP to a knowable quantity for a specific and defined objective, it's a compromise that suits me fine.  As much as folks use it as a back door argument for per kill XP, it is not the same.

 

EDIT:  Added a few words to clarify.


Edited by Cantousent, 28 October 2014 - 02:15 PM.

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#408
Seari

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I don't understand the reason for there not being kill xp, nor do I understand the people that are against kill xp. At first I thought Obsidian didn't implement it due to time constraints.

 

What are the reasons for being against it? No such thing as grinding in an cRPG where your purpose is to explore and kill stuff. Are people actually against it because they're hippies or something?



#409
Namutree

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I don't understand the reason for there not being kill xp, nor do I understand the people that are against kill xp. At first I thought Obsidian didn't implement it due to time constraints.

 

What are the reasons for being against it? No such thing as grinding in an cRPG where your purpose is to explore and kill stuff. Are people actually against it because they're hippies or something?

They have a very incorrect notion that poe isn't going to be about killing stuff.

 

 

Thoughts of Deus Ex and Vampire Bloodlines delude them. See they don't want poe to be inspired by the IE games; they want it to be inspired by games that were inspired by the IE games.


Edited by Namutree, 28 October 2014 - 02:42 PM.


#410
Hiro Protagonist II

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I keep hoping they put in other ways to fill the beastiary, from killing to observing, to talking, to who knows what.  Now, when arguing with any of these statements, please at least nod that I'm not a huge fan of the beastiary from a design point of view. 

 

Can't see it happening. What are players going to do? Observe the lions, talk to druids, read lore books or kill the lions and get xp? I'll take the easier option and that's likely avoiding the lions. It's free xp without the danger of combat if I can just read a book, observe them, talk to a druid or whatever. I would go back to avoiding a lot of unnecessary combat and maps left half unexplored if I can just read a lore book.



#411
GrinningReaper659

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Accusations that those against per-kill XP are hippies, are incorrectly thinking that PoE won't be about killing stuff, and of course my favorite: that anyone against per-kill XP didn't play or enjoy the IE games. Give me a break, I see that this argument hasn't evolved much and that you pro per-kill XPers are slandering your opponents by knowingly misrepresenting them. I'm not going to regurgitate all the legitimate reasons for not wanting per-kill XP, but those of you that have been around for all the combat XP threads (you know who you are) know them already, so stop intentionally misrepresenting those who don't support per-kill XP.

 

I imagine that many of those that oppose per-kill XP have quieted down a bit because they're willing to accept the bestiary compromise if necessary. Also, many of the pro kill-XP crowd have seemingly quieted down for this same reason.


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#412
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I don't understand the reason for there not being kill xp, nor do I understand the people that are against kill xp. At first I thought Obsidian didn't implement it due to time constraints.

 

What are the reasons for being against it? No such thing as grinding in an cRPG where your purpose is to explore and kill stuff. Are people actually against it because they're hippies or something?

They have a very incorrect notion that poe isn't going to be about killing stuff.

 

 

Thoughts of Deus Ex and Vampire Bloodlines delude them. See they don't want poe to be inspired by the IE games; they want it to be inspired by games that were inspired by the IE games.

 

Don't be a doofus.  Geez.  Now, pretend that I actually responded at length to this nonsense.  ...Unless you're just being snarky, in which case, bite me!  :Cant's huge grin icon:



#413
Namutree

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I don't understand the reason for there not being kill xp, nor do I understand the people that are against kill xp. At first I thought Obsidian didn't implement it due to time constraints.

 

What are the reasons for being against it? No such thing as grinding in an cRPG where your purpose is to explore and kill stuff. Are people actually against it because they're hippies or something?

They have a very incorrect notion that poe isn't going to be about killing stuff.

 

 

Thoughts of Deus Ex and Vampire Bloodlines delude them. See they don't want poe to be inspired by the IE games; they want it to be inspired by games that were inspired by the IE games.

 

Don't be a doofus.  Geez.  Now, pretend that I actually responded at length to this nonsense.  ...Unless you're just being snarky, in which case, bite me!  :Cant's huge grin icon:

 

I'm just being snarky. I know better. Although it's kind of true with Hassan Hunter, but just him.



#414
Gorionsson

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Unless the combat mechanics undergo a serious overhaul until release, I'll probably avoid combat as much as possible, anyway.

Combat xp not so important for now, even though I still haven't seen a single argument against it that makes any sense.

 

A band of adventurers go out into the field, armed to the teeth.

Killing hundreds of enemies in epic encounters.  ------ No xp.

 

Talking three times to a fat man on the corner, spotting a rabbit, walking over new piece of grass. ------- Truckloads of xp. :no:  



#415
Captain Shrek

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I just think that killing any random beast shouldn't yield an XP reward.

Then maybe instead of arguing against the existence of kill XP you should argue against the existence of random beasts.

I'm a huge advocate of hand placed encounters. There should be an authentic, specific, in-game reason for the existence and placement of every enemy in this game. Because that would eliminate 90% of the gripes people seem to have against kill XP.

 

 

 

This is the core problem associated with trash mobs. It just needs to go. 


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#416
Cantousent

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Combat xp not so important for now, even though I still haven't seen a single argument against it that makes any sense.

 

A band of adventurers go out into the field, armed to the teeth.

Killing hundreds of enemies in epic encounters.  ------ No xp.

 

Talking three times to a fat man on the corner, spotting a rabbit, walking over new piece of grass. ------- Truckloads of xp. :no:  

Objective only XP is not so important for now, even though I haven't seen a single argument against it that makes sense.

 

A band of adventurers goes out into the field, armed to the teeth.

Killed hundreds of minor enemies in trivial encounters.  ----- tons of xp in the aggregate.

 

Going through multiple steps to secure a rare and powerful item for a merchant.  ------ less XP in the aggregate.

 

Of course, some folks might decide to respond to the post rather than the point at hand.  You can restructure any argument in order to trivialize it, but at the very least, you should properly represent it.  I don't think I have once misrepresented an argument in order to refute it.

 

in per kill XP, you get a whole bunch of incidents where you receive relatively small XP that adds up to a lot, then you also get XP for talking to the fat guy.  Now, I don't think that there are many folks calling for per kill XP who say we shouldn't get quest XP also.  That's going by comments in this thread as well as the poll numbers themselves.  Maybe it's different overall, but we're in a discussion here and in this discussion, I don't see an example of a substantial group calling for the removal of quest XP.  Only about half more or less for inclusion of per kill XP.

 

In objective XP, in this case culminating in dialogue with the quest giver on three occasions(?), the characters not only overcome, kill, confuse, or make peace with tons of monsters, they might also get past or through locked doors, solve riddles, dispatch, spring, or otherwise bypass traps, and other 'epic' things.  The culmination of these experiences is in stages, one of which is to talk to the fat guy three times.

 

As for you, Cap'n, I don't actually mind trash mobs as long as the combat is fun.  I tend not to go out of my way to kill things anyway, but sometimes I do want to kill off monsters or npcs.  A good example is Wasteland 2.  It wouldn't matter which system it used, I would still go after the many raider bands in Canyon of the Titan.  I feel kind of bad killing off the Monks, but they are either retarded or insane in the first place, and I knew that straight away.  I thought they had it all wrong from get-go City.  In the Wasteland universe, if the fear of MAD worked, there wouldn't have been a game in the first place.  Out in the wilderness, I have virtually *always* run from battles with animals and raiders, even though I could pick up XP gear, especially in areas where the raiders are so pathetic I dispatch them with melee or brawling.  Nevertheless, I don't want to take the time.  Trash monsters are only bad when they're completely trashy.  So, in my mind, I think of them as minor enounters random or not.  I don't want to slog though completely forgettable encounters, which is what I think of 'trash encounters.'   ...But that's a whole different discussion.  As far as I'm concerned, the XP gorilla beats down a lot of other discussions.  I think it's actually interesting to debate entirely set encounters vs. random/minor/semi-random etc.  What is a trash mob?  I know there were truly minor encounters in all of the IE games.


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#417
Hiro Protagonist II

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I tend not to go out of my way to kill things anyway, but sometimes I do want to kill off monsters or npcs.  A good example is Wasteland 2.  It wouldn't matter which system it used, I would still go after the many raider bands in Canyon of the Titan.  I feel kind of bad killing off the Monks, but they are either retarded or insane in the first place, and I knew that straight away.  I thought they had it all wrong from get-go City.  In the Wasteland universe, if the fear of MAD worked, there wouldn't have been a game in the first place. 

 

Out in the wilderness, I have virtually *always* run from battles with animals and raiders, even though I could pick up XP gear, especially in areas where the raiders are so pathetic I dispatch them with melee or brawling.  Nevertheless, I don't want to take the time.  Trash monsters are only bad when they're completely trashy.  So, in my mind, I think of them as minor enounters random or not.  I don't want to slog though completely forgettable encounters, which is what I think of 'trash encounters.'   ...But that's a whole different discussion.  As far as I'm concerned, the XP gorilla beats down a lot of other discussions.  I think it's actually interesting to debate entirely set encounters vs. random/minor/semi-random etc.  What is a trash mob?  I know there were truly minor encounters in all of the IE games.

 

I was the opposite with Canyon of Titan. Keeping a Monk alive and travelling with you opens up additional dialogue and quest options and I used him to get loot from the raider's lockers and the toaster. He's only with you for a short time and then leaves your party so I utilised him by looting the raiders, not killing them. And you can avoid battles with the DBM with the monk travelling with you. Even meeting up with Sadler while one your characters is with the monk some distance away. You have one character distracting the monk, while the rest of the party meets Sadler. Great roleplaying options there.

 

I only killed raiders later if they attacked me first but I tried to avoid them as much as possible. I find it funny how some people who are against combat xp are the ones who resort to it and people like myself who like how it's been implemented in games like WL2 with combat xp don't go on kill sprees. My roleplaying experience was that the DBM took care of them so I didn't need to.

 

The random world map enemy encounters are easy to overcome. I like that there are enemies out there on the world map and it should be random. I had Rose put 4 points in Outdoorsman. It then gave you a 100% success rate in avoiding them up to Canyon of Titan. Having a trinket to get you to 5 gave you 100% up to Damonta iirc. Although I did avoid the enemy encounters every time and travelled all over the world map and looted every hidden cache and went to every mysterious shrine. And that's a cost with one of your characters having to invest in the skill. It's a choice if you want to avoid them altogether or take the chance of not investing in the skill and being caught in random battles. And what I liked with in investing so much in Outdoorsman is you were rewarded with avoiding fights.


Edited by Hiro Protagonist II, 29 October 2014 - 04:22 PM.


#418
Ashram

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#419
Namutree

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I just think that killing any random beast shouldn't yield an XP reward.

Then maybe instead of arguing against the existence of kill XP you should argue against the existence of random beasts.

I'm a huge advocate of hand placed encounters. There should be an authentic, specific, in-game reason for the existence and placement of every enemy in this game. Because that would eliminate 90% of the gripes people seem to have against kill XP.

 

 

 

This is the core problem associated with trash mobs. It just needs to go. 

 

If kill-xp isn't added; I agree. After you get the beastiary xp they'll just be annoying.



#420
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I sometimes leave raiders alone, but I virtually always hunt down and kill off slavers completely.  I mean, I might let the underlings go, but the people in charge I will find and I will end.  Sometimes, if I take a real disliking to someone I view as truly evil, I'll kill 'em anyway.  Generally, even if I really don't like someone in a game, I don't go out of my way to fight him.  I didn't want to kill off the monks, but for roleplaying purposes, I decided to remove the order.  That would be true regardless of everything else.  Whether or not the alternative was entirely bad.  There was the 'twist,' but I didn't know that at the time and the other 'twist' convinced me that, as well intentioned as they were, it had to be the way it ended.  Wasteland does a good job of making a harsh world pretty campy and funny.  It's grittyesque in a sort of grin and chuckle sort of way that I enjoy.

 

I to agree, my Hiroic friend.  A lot of the anti-per kill XP crowd does seem to have a bit o' the bloodthirst.  However, I think the point of not having kill XP is that your motives are pure.  You just want to smite the hell out of everything in sight to show off your badassedness.  Hell, leave the gear on the rotting bodies because you. don't. even. care. about. that.  Not my particular play style, but you have to admit there's something almost admirable to the commitment.  :Cant's bemused grin icon:






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