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Combat XP - What Just Happened..?


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Poll: What Just Happened (280 member(s) have cast votes)

What Sources of Xp Do you think are justified?

  1. Combat (152 votes [11.44%])

    Percentage of vote: 11.44%

  2. Quests (264 votes [19.86%])

    Percentage of vote: 19.86%

  3. 'Objectives' (Finishing Part of a Quest) (233 votes [17.53%])

    Percentage of vote: 17.53%

  4. Lock Picking / Trap Disabling (118 votes [8.88%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.88%

  5. Exploration (207 votes [15.58%])

    Percentage of vote: 15.58%

  6. Specific Combat Scenarios - Bosses or Special Encounters (197 votes [14.82%])

    Percentage of vote: 14.82%

  7. Bestiary Unlocking (With Limited XP To Be Gained) (158 votes [11.89%])

    Percentage of vote: 11.89%

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#21
IndiraLightfoot

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I see no problem in voting yes to all of them, but I miss one of the presumtptions about the xp system before it became clear that "objective xp" meant "quest xp only", and it was my favourite:

Per encounter xp!

 

Every time you kill a bunch of critters OR manage to sneak by them undetected once (all the way, not just a few of them), then you get a bit of xp.

That would have been interesting, and also, give loot to the killers, and potential loot for pickpocket freaks.

 

EDIT: And if you once have snuck by them ,then you wont get xp for killing them afterwards, obviously.


Edited by IndiraLightfoot, 06 October 2014 - 09:40 PM.

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#22
Cantousent

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I get you, Curry, and that's really the point.  I've never really thought that it should be a question of quest or kill XP.  I continue to believe that XP should be awarded for achieving objectives and better results should yield better rewards.  Essentially, I like 'quest' XP just fine as long as it's sufficiently broad to cover more things than just 'talk to the farmer, kill the ogre, and return to the farmer.'  I also don't mind some objectives or 'quests' being combat centric or even exclusive to combat.  I mean, I'd like to see a fair sprinkling of 'quests' that can only be accomplished by certain approaches.  I think the beastiary idea is a pretty shoddy attempt to placate folks, but since it has actually worked to placate a lot of folks, I guess it does what it needs to do.  I'd rather have some objectives with real meat on their bones that net XP for combat people.  Put in some stuff in there for smooth talkers, cheats, and sneaks also.

 

EDIT:  Damn it.


Edited by Cantousent, 06 October 2014 - 09:56 PM.


#23
Hiro Protagonist II

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The Bestiary pages is a shoddy attempt at combat xp. If it takes five spiders to kill to receive a page of that spider and there's still another 6 spiders in the dungeon, then I'm going to leave those 6 spiders. I received my xp reward, time to move on.


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#24
archangel979

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I clicked on all options. I want as many sources of XP as possible :D
Does that make me that special snowflake?
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#25
Namutree

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The Bestiary pages is a shoddy attempt at combat xp. If it takes five spiders to kill to receive a page of that spider and there's still another 6 spiders in the dungeon, then I'm going to leave those 6 spiders. I received my xp reward, time to move on.

It has some advantages over kill-xp; assuming game balance is a major design goal. For example:

 

With kill-xp one could grind on enemies until the player is a really high level; making most of the game super easy. With the beastiary system you can get some xp, but not enough to break the first half of the game.


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#26
IndiraLightfoot

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Or, why not make the latter part of the game all super-tough, so if you enter in those territories at level 8-ish, you will have to be extremely good to make it (and even a bit lucky), and if your level 12 (max), it's still quite touch.



#27
Namutree

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I clicked on all options. I want as many sources of XP as possible :D
Does that make me that special snowflake?

That reminds me of Elder Scrolls.

 

Hit an enemy? Xp for that.

Jump in place? Xp for that.

Run around? Xp for that.

Talk to people? Xp for that.

Get hit? Xp for that.

Buy stuff? Xp for that.

 

It goes on for awhile. It's actually kind of silly. Back when I was playing Morrowind I would jump from rooftop to rooftop while thinking of what I should do next. I can never forget falling from a high distance, hear "KERSPLAT!", losing 70% of my hp, then hear "Haaah..." and see I got a Acrobatics up. It made even falling fun. Not in the spirit of the IE games though.


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#28
Namutree

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Or, why not make the latter part of the game all super-tough, so if you enter in those territories at level 8-ish, you will have to be extremely good to make it (and even a bit lucky), and if your level 12 (max), it's still quite touch.

Sounds waaay tougher than BG2 (Which is the difficulty Obsidian is aiming for) and would make grinding almost needed.



#29
IndiraLightfoot

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Even if I'm not a huge fan of the Elder Scrolls series, it still is entertaining enough, and that kind of xp system makes much more sense than quest xp only, if I would simplify the issue.

Basically, you get tiny amount of points for your experiences. Quest xp only is totally gonzo and much more gamist, rather than simulationist:

You do fantastic deeds, and in very specific ways and in certain orders, and then finally, epiphany! From above, God the GM, grants a huge lump of xp, and you take a bow in gratitude. :)

 

EDIT: I like the xp for everything policy in WL2 too. It's no biggie, it's just fun. I have fun playing it.

 

EDIT2: Interestingly, there seem to be lots of RPGers who see xp as serious business. It's almost like its radioactive. It should be handled rarely and with great care. I guess, this is one faction from the PnP side of RPG-ing, which really did the xp like after each session, or when quests were done (based on adventure scenarios). I respect that, but I'm also very much more a computer game-gamer. I see them as rewarding little fun-points, I really like them, but they don't represent anything sacred to me that we need to hold back on, or something that we need to reign in, as if it was the alcohol of CRPGs. I say: let the xp juices flow freely. There is nothing degenerative about xp.


Edited by IndiraLightfoot, 06 October 2014 - 11:21 PM.

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#30
Namutree

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Even if I'm not a huge fan of the Elder Scrolls series, it still is entertaining enough, and that kind of xp system makes much more sense than quest xp only, if I would simplify the issue.

Basically, you get tiny amount of points for your experiences. Quest xp only is totally gonzo and much more gamist, rather than simulationist:

You do fantastic deeds, and in very specific ways and in certain orders, and then finally, epiphany! From above, God the GM, grants a huge lump of xp, and you take a bow in gratitude. :)

 

EDIT: I like the xp for everything policy in WL2 too. It's no biggie, it's just fun. I have fun playing it.

 

EDIT2: Interestingly, there seem to be lots of RPGers who see xp as serious business. It's almost like its radioactive. It should be handled rarely and with great care. I guess, this is one faction from the PnP side of RPG-ing, which really did the xp like after each session, or when quests were done (based on adventure scenarios). I respect that, but I'm also very much more a computer game-gamer. I see them as rewarding little fun-points, I really like them, but they don't represent anything sacred to me that we need to hold back on, or something that we need to reign in, as if it was the alcohol of CRPGs. I say: let the xp juices flow freely. There is nothing degenerative about xp.

I like Elder Scrolls (Except Oblivian/Battle Spire), but I prefer the IE games. I've never really played PnP before. I tried it once, but our DM was horrible and made everything about his character. 

 

EDIT: Better make this more relevant to the main topic. I like the xp system of the Elder Scrolls games, but I don't think it's a great fit for poe.


Edited by Namutree, 06 October 2014 - 11:29 PM.


#31
constantine

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I voted 2,5,6. Special encounters is an excellent idea, kudos to the Poll OP.

And I'd hate exploration XP, as well as lockpicking. Please no.

#32
IndiraLightfoot

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Agreed. The xp system of the Elder Scroll would be a bad fit, but WL2's on the other hand...


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#33
Namutree

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I voted 2,5,6. Special encounters is an excellent idea, kudos to the Poll OP.

And I'd hate exploration XP, as well as lockpicking. Please no.

What's your beef with exploration-xp? Shouldn't adventurers get xp for exploring?

 

EDIT: Actually, I guess it depends on what is meant by exploration-xp. Perhaps discovery-xp is more clear.


Edited by Namutree, 06 October 2014 - 11:41 PM.


#34
Hiro Protagonist II

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It has some advantages over kill-xp; assuming game balance is a major design goal. For example:

 

With kill-xp one could grind on enemies until the player is a really high level; making most of the game super easy. With the beastiary system you can get some xp, but not enough to break the first half of the game.

 

Wouldn't be surprised if you can unbalance the game with the hidden quest xp points. I find the hidden quest xp points all over the game world to be quite odd. It's almost like quest markers, like bread crumbs dropped over the maps, to move you onto the next stage of the quest. The act of entering the Ogre cave is one such example. And will you get similar xp rewards like entering a house? eg. Find Sir Bearington on the second floor of his house. *Enters house*. *1500xp reward*. LOL. It sounds a little ridiculous. And then you can walk straight back out of the house and do something else.

 

Add on the Bestiary and other proposed xp systems and it will be hard not to unbalance it. Because you're going to have players do the opposite of each other with some farming every point of xp and others who won't but will still go through the game in a less efficient levelling up manner. How do you balance the game with those two types of play styles? And who do you balance the game for? The player who farms every xp or the player who doesn't? Either way of balancing will make it either easier for the xp farmer or harder for the non-farmer.

 

Also, I don't understand exploration xp or how it will be implemented in PoE so I didn't vote for it. 



#35
PrimeJunta

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Yes, finally a pretty good poll. My only quibble with it would be that "Specific Combat Scenarios" is redundant as it already falls under quest or objective XP.

Voted for everything other than that (for that reason), Combat and Lockpicking. Reasons: I think it's better to reward players for results rather than activities. Bestiary XP is a bit of a gray area but I voted for that because it makes sense to reward learning things with XP, and it'll bring back some of the IE game "feel" when beating up things without many of the problems associated with "plain" combat XP.

#36
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@Namutree out of curiosity, why do you hate the idea of exploration XP?

(The way I'm imagining it is something like a small but not completely insignificant XP reward for discovering a significant new area, regardless of any quests or objectives associated with it. You wouldn't get it for randomly entering people's houses in a city or village, but you would get it for discovering a new wilderness map, new dungeon, or new dungeon level, for example.)
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#37
gkathellar

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I voted for 1, 2, 4 and 5, but I wouldn't mind any except Bestiary XP, tbh. Bestiary just annoys me.

Really, combat XP should be handled on a per-encounter basis, and encounters should be allowed to reconstitute to a degree within reason.
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#38
Namutree

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@Namutree out of curiosity, why do you hate the idea of exploration XP?

(The way I'm imagining it is something like a small but not completely insignificant XP reward for discovering a significant new area, regardless of any quests or objectives associated with it. You wouldn't get it for randomly entering people's houses in a city or village, but you would get it for discovering a new wilderness map, new dungeon, or new dungeon level, for example.)

I like the idea of getting xp for finding new areas like a cave or dungeon. If that is what people mean then I like it. The example you provided sounds cool. If they do that then I approve.

 

If they mean that clearing all the fog on the map gives xp or entering a house gives xp than I'm against it.


Edited by Namutree, 07 October 2014 - 01:36 AM.

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#39
IndiraLightfoot

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Really, combat XP should be handled on a per-encounter basis, and encounters should be allowed to reconstitute to a degree within reason.

 

I really do wish that Josh could see how sensible this would be. It would feel fresh enough, and it would make each replay of the game unique enough, and it allows for different solutions to encounters, instead of just kill-xp each and every time.



#40
Ineth

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I would argue this is one of the most unbiased polls so far.

 

Take notes.

 

Still missing the important

  • "other (please specify)"
  • "don't know / don't care (i.e. whatever the devs think is best)"

options though, which every poll should have in order to make the results actually meaningful. /petpeeve

 

 

Also, "Exploration" XP is pretty vague and different people will think of different things when reading it - it might have been useful to break it down into multiple concrete options, such as:

  • "Clearing fog of war"
  • "Entering a new area for the first time"
  • "Collecting 'discovery tokens' that are spread across the countryside"
  • "Discovering special landmarks"
  • "Completing scripted interactions"

Edited by Ineth, 07 October 2014 - 01:41 AM.

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