Drama in indy gaming and games journalism

[Volourn]

Yes.

 

If I was a lame butt twitterer I'd #equalist #equalism non stop on it.

[Ganrich]

Interesting clip of a discussion with the folks that made Super Meat Boy on the IGF awards.

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/2igfyx/super_meat_boy_developers_edmund_mcmillen_and/

[BruceVC]

 

Well, too bad for you, I guess ?

 

Eh, it's not a big deal.  I think the title is just bothering me, it's pretty unwieldy.  Other than that I can ignore the thread, since when I do check in it typically reads like a foreign language to me.  

 

 

The reality is this whole "drama" is utterly irrelevant  to anyone outside of gaming circles. Also there are only certain people who have taken umbrage to the whole characterization of the word "gamers"

 

The whole outrage and "evidence" of what is going on amongst gaming journalists is also very subjective. So you don't even have a consolidated view around if there is an issue about the integrity of certain gaming websites.

 

 

So its no surprise to me that many people aren't too concerned about this " drama"..because frankly  there isn't really one. Its just that  some people have decided to make it into one and expect others to be equally concerned.

[Volourn]

That goes for both sides. Basically nobody in the wreal world gives a crap about gamegate, gamergaters, SJWs, or new age hateful racist sexist feminists.

 

I know plenty of people who play games in RL and nobody talks about this nonsense. Vast majority of people just want to play games they like and they don't bother with games they don't like. i'd feel awkward bringing this silliness up in RL. LMAO

 

 

However, they don't whine about he games they don't like either nor do they try to change them aka like the Anitas of the world. Of course, it's a known fact she hates gamers yet lies about being a gamer. PATHETIC. That's the kind of person you support.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Volourn

[BruceVC]

That goes for both sides. Basically nobody in the wreal world gives a crap about gamegate, gamergaters, SJWs, or new age hateful racist sexist feminists.

 

I know plenty of people who play games in RL and nobody talks about this nonsense. Vast majority of people just want to play games they like and they don't bother with games they don't like. i'd feel awkward bringing this silliness up in RL. LMAO

 

 

However, they don't whine about he games they don't like either nor do they try to change them aka like the Anitas of the world. Of course, it's a known fact she hates gamers yet lies about being a gamer. PATHETIC. That's the kind of person you support.

 

That goes for both sides. Basically nobody in the wreal world gives a crap about gamegate, gamergaters, SJWs, or new age hateful racist sexist feminists.

 

I know plenty of people who play games in RL and nobody talks about this nonsense. Vast majority of people just want to play games they like and they don't bother with games they don't like. i'd feel awkward bringing this silliness up in RL. LMAO

 

 

However, they don't whine about he games they don't like either nor do they try to change them aka like the Anitas of the world. Of course, it's a known fact she hates gamers yet lies about being a gamer. PATHETIC. That's the kind of person you support.

 

Unfortunately that's not completely true

 

Campaigns and movements about SJ issues like gender equality are relevant outside of gaming and are real in many areas of society. But GG is only relevant to some gamers and the gaming industry. I am sure you can see the difference

 

In other words SJ causes permeate all levels of society. Long after GG is gone people will still be concerned with equality.

[Ineth]

The reality is this whole "drama" is utterly irrelevant  to anyone outside of gaming circles.

 

Actually, it looks like lots and lots of non-gamer feminists (probably from tumblr) found it relevant enough to join the flame war.

[NWN_babaYaga]

that is true. Mostly aliens come to tell people how bad and terribly wrong they all are with their games... Today the question for "hippy gamers" is like..

 

are your for gender ? NO,

then you must be a bad gamer ! Realy ? I can play good battlefield 2 and have lots of kills!

Doesnt matter you dont like gender ! hmm.... but what has gender to do with battlefield MP ?

you are a sexist! No.. we have a girl in our Team and she´s pretty good in killing other Teams!

You are a lier and a thief! No, Im not gollum at all!

you are a racist cuz you have no guy from africa in your Team? How do you know that ?

Cuz you dont like gender! Well, but we had one he just wasnt that good in killing other Teams!

See, i told you you are a racist!

[BruceVC]

 

The reality is this whole "drama" is utterly irrelevant  to anyone outside of gaming circles.

 

Actually, it looks like lots and lots of non-gamer feminists (probably from tumblr) found it relevant enough to join the flame war.

 

 

That is also true, so in other words people who aren't necessarily involved in gaming are also criticizing the gaming industry

[JadedWolf]

To be honest this is starting to look like a bunch of people manically beating a horse's skeleton at this point.

[Malcador]

So its no surprise to me that many people aren't too concerned about this " drama"..because frankly  there isn't really one. Its just that  some people have decided to make it into one and expect others to be equally concerned.

Much like most issues SJWs rant about online, heh.

[TrashMan]

Both sides are a mixed group, but the worst are usually the loudest. Keep that in mind.

[Blarghagh]

 

In other words SJ causes permeate all levels of society. Long after GG is gone people will still be concerned with equality.

 

 

Are we still on this? GG is not against equality. Everyone except Jezebel readers knows this by now.

 

Actually, honestly, maybe some GG supporters are. Trolls are using GG as a front for harassment and some GG supporters have become militant (note how this is a bad thing for them as much as it is for feminists). Doesn't mean that GG is about it. That is, and has been all this time, a misrepresentation by biased media. Trolls do not represent GG, which is a consumer revolt from a diverse group and not an organized movement.

 

I'm not going to say that GG is still innocent at this time. Championing Milo and Adam Baldwin despite their ridiculous views just because they are on the side of GamerGate is about as ridiculous as anything Leigh Alexander says. But on a whole, the actual consumers with good intentions are the majority of GG and their cause is just and most of all - not about holding back social justice.

Edited October 7, 2014 by TrueNeutral

[BruceVC]

 

 

In other words SJ causes permeate all levels of society. Long after GG is gone people will still be concerned with equality.

 

 

Are we still on this? GG is not against equality. Everyone except Jezebel readers knows this by now.

 

Actually, honestly, maybe some GG supporters are. Trolls are using GG as a front for harassment and some GG supporters have become militant (note how this is a bad thing for them as much as it is for feminists). Doesn't mean that GG is about it. That is, and has been all this time, a misrepresentation by biased media. Trolls do not represent GG, which is a consumer revolt from a diverse group and not an organized movement.

 

I'm not going to say that GG is still innocent at this time. Championing Milo and Adam Baldwin despite their ridiculous views just because they are on the side of GamerGate is about as ridiculous as anything Leigh Alexander says. But on a whole, the actual consumers with good intentions are the majority of GG and their cause is just and most of all - not about holding back social justice.

 

 

I don't disagree with what you have posted, but my point is not that GG is against equality. I am not suggesting that at all. All I'm saying is in RL the issue of gender equality will still be around long after GG.

[Blarghagh]

Oh, my bad then. The juxtaposition of the two in that sentence made it look like you were still putting them in opposite camps.

 

To be fair, I don't hitch my name to the term GamerGate anymore though I still support their goals. The trolls and militants seriously damaged it with abuse and pretending it's a "war". There are a lot of good people in there but they are being held back. Still, the abuse and trolling on their side pales compared to the trolling and abuse I've seen coming from the people who oppose GG.

[Malcador]

Sounds like there's not much pretending to it being a "war" (really every Internet argument is).

[Blarghagh]

I tend to see plenty of messages come by saying "we've won this battle" and there's a serious "if you aren't with me you're against me" attitude among both sides. They are polarized and entrenched. It's pretty much two groups of militants at this point being **** to each other.

[Elerond]

Fundamentalists that use GG as their reason to harass and as way to spread their causes cause similar PR problems for GG than what individual journalist cause to gaming press as whole, especially when it looks for public eye that GG as whole don't intervene in such behavior or don't seem to actively trying to stop such behavior. Which I would guess make many see/feel that GG movement accept such behavior and therefore at least indirectly supports such behavior. And because people want to pigeonhole everything behind simple terms GG becomes anti-feminist/-equality/-acceptance movement in eyes of public that don't really care to take their time to get know what really drives most of the people in the movement.

 

You can see similar generalizations happen all the time in issues where there are fundamentalists involved. So GG movement needs to do PR work and try to find ways to lessen voice of fundamentalists that use their cause if they don't want those previously mentioned traits to be associated with them.

 

One thing that I would like to see in gaming press is that they would establish The Good Journalistic guidelines and found self-regulatory organ that would seek that press follows those guidelines. Similar model that for example Finnish and other Nordic countries presses use instead of purely market driven regulation, but as most of gaming press is US based I don't see that such thing could ever become industry wide thing, as US press is very vehemently against any sort regulation, even voluntary one done by press themselves.

[Blarghagh]

The sad thing is there's not much GG can do about it. People say GG should self-police itself better if they are really against this behaviour but how do you police anonymous trolls? It's been suggested they should move to another term or hashtag if they wanted to have a serious debate not marred by toxic people, but what would that do? Opponents would just point out "this came from GG" in the same way they claimed "this came from 4chan" or "this came from abuse" so there would still be no discussion.

[Fighter]

It should always be noted that GG is a hashtag and not an employer with a management hierarchy.  Unlike the gaming publications. Also many GG supporters have spoken out against harassment. The gaming press largely remains silent despite the clear displeasure from their audience which is hard to not interpret as approval.

 

Look at the Escapist. After they've spoken out it's become clear that someone like Moviebob (whom I see as an example of the actual real internalizing sexist/racist) is not the voice of the Escapist. Not so clear with the others.

[Nonek]

Though I think the creation of an Ombudsmans office for game journalism is a very good idea, one that primarily represents the consumer and has the power to impose draconian fines on anybody not serving the public interest or being found to be complicit in corruption or unethical behaviour, I do not see how game journalism can recover from the deathblow it has struck itself. They have openly derided, insulted and censored millions of their audience and their opinions, they may have the backing of like minded journalistic bodies, but the customer has the real power that everybody seems to forget, and may well simply deny them their livelihood. And with increasingly viable alternate options (thus why Mr Bain is hated) this is more than feasible.

 

I agree that #Gamergate as a loose fellowship is tainted by hate speech, but it also benefits in not denying free speech to anybody, and most members deriding and being disgusted by the antics of a few whom they publically repudiate, but do not try to stifle. There is honesty and clarity there, as well as all of their discussions being open to the public, in stark contrast to the opposition.

 

Edit: In truth the situation reminds me of Gerald Ratner's idiocy and his downfall.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Nonek

[Elerond]

The sad thing is there's not much GG can do about it. People say GG should self-police itself better if they are really against this behaviour but how do you police anonymous trolls? It's been suggested they should move to another term or hashtag if they wanted to have a serious debate not marred by toxic people, but what would that do? Opponents would just point out "this came from GG" in the same way they claimed "this came from 4chan" or "this came from abuse" so there would still be no discussion.

 

One possible way is to out voice harassers and to show public support for those that got harassed regardless of what you personally think about their views, instead using typical internet debate policy and claim that there is harasser in both sides. Because giving active support for those who oppose you both lessens impact that fundamentalists that languish in your cause have and it also make your arguments seem more reasonable to those that aren't part of the argument. Although it is often problematic to utilize such tactic in large scale in internet debates as participants don't usually are in connection with each other outside of debate threads and there usually aren't any clear leadership for participants, although this is unique to internet debates as many civil unrest movements also suffer from it like for example Occupy Wall Street and protests in Ferguson have shown. 

[kirottu]

Finnish news site/magazine run a piece about Intel pulling it's ads from Gamasutra. They call GamerGate "consumer revolt" instead of "harassment campaign" or "worse than ISIS" and it feels damn good man. The report is in finnish, but if someone wants to check it out:

http://www.iltalehti.fi/digi/2014100718725937_du.shtml

[Blarghagh]

UAT also pulled their ads from Gamasutra.

[BruceVC]

 

Finnish news site/magazine run a piece about Intel pulling it's ads from Gamasutra. They call GamerGate "consumer revolt" instead of "harassment campaign" or "worse than ISIS" and it feels damn good man. The report is in finnish, but if someone wants to check it out:

http://www.iltalehti.fi/digi/2014100718725937_du.shtml

 

Typical Finnish response, totally out of touch with reality  

[pmp10]

One thing that I would like to see in gaming press is that they would establish The Good Journalistic guidelines and found self-regulatory organ that would seek that press follows those guidelines. Similar model that for example Finnish and other Nordic countries presses use instead of purely market driven regulation, but as most of gaming press is US based I don't see that such thing could ever become industry wide thing, as US press is very vehemently against any sort regulation, even voluntary one done by press themselves.

But isn't half of gamergate opposition exactly against this?

It seems to me that since journalists chose solidarity over competition then they would naturally reject any attempts of outside control.