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Mishandled development

Obsidian development priorities failure

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#61
Bryy

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Double Fine's adventures with Broken Age and Spacebase are mishandled development.

 

Subjective slights are not.


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#62
Messier-31

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I actually think the best way to deal with threads like this is to "derail" them into actual discussion. Hmm... maybe that'd just be called "railing" a thread? :)

 

You railed... uh, you nailed it :thumbsup:



#63
archangel979

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I would rather if people just stopped posting and let it die.



#64
Hiro Protagonist II

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Well it was halfway down the page and on it's way to dropping off but you can see who bumped it again from the previous page. :rolleyes:

 

But lets keep bumping it and keep it on top. :thumbsup:



#65
Mr. Magniloquent

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Okay, who's got the oil and torches? A pitchfork; we'll need some of those as well.

 

I'll take this opportunity to state that I have no relation, I was here first, and any similarity in pseudonyms are purely superficial and coincidental.


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#66
Tsuga C

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- Too much content, do people really care about so many classes and so many plotline replays, which frankly, only the tiniest portion of people would ever consume?


Truth be told, replay value and finding something I'd previously missed or wasn't able to access because it was class specific are highly desirable. I certainly hope that PoE is worth 5 or 6 play-throughs with new things cropping up when you select different options.
 
 

They're confused because they're conflating categories and misinterpreting the nature of the product.


No, this is your stumbling block. You backed something that was never intended for you or those of your perspective and you can't quite wrap your mind around the idea that not everyone shares your gaming priorities.

Edited by Tsuga C, 06 October 2014 - 02:42 PM.

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#67
Zeckul

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- Too much content, do people really care about so many classes and so many plotline replays, which frankly, only the tiniest portion of people would ever consume?

 

- You focused on the quantity of the content, not quality.
 

- By focusing on the quantity instead of quality, you tricked people into this illusion of false dichotomy, that they will enjoy more content even if it is poorly realized, and in the process rendering yourselves as hardcore old-school developers who care about deep gameplay mechanics and story.

 

- Why not 6 classes instead of 11 ??

Do you really think that gameplay archetypes can be achieved if you shove as many character labels and "unique" spells as possible, instead of just dispersing various pertinent talents and abilities, properly implemented, across 6 classes?

 

 

- Ask yourselves; what is more enjoyable for the vast majority of people: creating highly polished reactive classes which visually emphasize how you lead and develop them in the gameworld, or shoving as much stuff as possible so you can say that the game has a lot of stuff ?

You actually are trying to put so much stuff in it that if you remove half of it, people would still think it's an epic RPG(of course, if it actually had production values)

 

Taking the Infinity Engine games as a reference (since that's a design goal of PoE), 11 classes seems perfectly in line with these old games. It's a lot less than BG2 and a bit more than BG1. Plenty of people cared about all these classes then, including likely many who backed PoE.

 

You make a very general point about a focus on quantity over quality but you don't provide a lot of examples so it looks rather unsubstantial, the only point you actually make is how in your opinion 6 classes would have been better than 11 but that doesn't in itself imply that Obsidian is focusing on quantity rather than quality. Perhaps 11 classes is the optimal number of classes in the system they are designing.

 

Anyway, 6 classes seems like awfully not a lot of classes for a game where you can control 6 characters - it's the bare minimum to allow for a party of 6 different classes, and there's no other possible combination without repetition.

 

- You completely failed at game development, this is not an interactive novel! 

It's a video game, put some production values in it like you did with Dungeon Siege 3. It's frankly embarrassing how you let your standards fall to the ground by entertaining this ludicrous notion you got from people when they tell you that they don't care about animations and graphics.

 

Why do you think that Obsidian entertains the notion that their fans don't care about animations and graphics? What part of the graphics have poor production values? Animations clearly need work but this has been acknowledged by developers and they clearly said that they're working on them and adding new ones, so perhaps you're just not up-to-date on what's going on with development.


Edited by Zeckul, 06 October 2014 - 07:42 PM.

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#68
GreyFox

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lol this dood's got jokes



#69
karelia

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I hope that the game is sufficiently streamlined so that we do not have to deal with superfluous factors such as customisation, optional quests or exploration - ideally we should be aiming for Modern Warfare 2 in isometric form.


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#70
Hatred

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 I don't have access to the beta, heck I havent even bought the game at all. I heard the price would go up on release so I planned to buy it then (I could be so wrong about this, i havent looked into it). I have however been paying a reasonable amount of attention to these forums and to news about this game in general. 

 From all of the following I have done it seems to me that development is being handled very well. With just four million dollars (an amount of money which I believe isnt v much at all for a game budget these days) we be asking obsidian to make a game which is as good as BG/IWD franchise. A lot of posters here think that BG/IWD/PS:T are some of the best video games of all time, and I am on that bandwagon myself.

 I feel like I have been waiting my whole life for this game. Everything I have seen so far makes me think obsidian are doing their level best to give us an experience which fans of those games will enjoy. 

 IMO the most *mishandled development of all time award* would have to go to Skyrim, Fallout 3 and Dragon Age. Each of these titles made me die a little inside and become depressed (like I suffered some actual depression, which might be a bit crazy but eh, i think I am a little crazy). I know I am not in the majority with these opinions. Except here. Seems like these forums are the place where FNV>FO3 and BG>DA:O and Morrowind>Skyrim. So the majority of the backs of this game do not want what you are asking for OP. Its that simple. Nostalgia freak for life.


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#71
Bryy

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It's also important to note that each game is different. No game is going to capture the aesthetics of another, no matter how hard it tries. It may feel like it, but it can never be it.

 

It's also important to note what is bad management and what is simply design decisions we would not have gone with. I would not put Skyrim, FO3, or Dragon Age in any of those categories. You could make a case for DA2, but they still managed to put together a good game in comparison to what they had. 



#72
Hatred

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It's also important to note that each game is different. No game is going to capture the aesthetics of another, no matter how hard it tries. It may feel like it, but it can never be it.

 

It's also important to note what is bad management and what is simply design decisions we would not have gone with. I would not put Skyrim, FO3, or Dragon Age in any of those categories. You could make a case for DA2, but they still managed to put together a good game in comparison to what they had. 

It is just my opinion they were badly managed due to the choices they made not being the ones I wanted them to make. Im also aware that those games were all commercially successful. I think me calling them mismanaged is about as fair as someone saying PoE is mismanaged. Maybe not fair at all :/



#73
Bryy

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It's also important to note that each game is different. No game is going to capture the aesthetics of another, no matter how hard it tries. It may feel like it, but it can never be it.

 

It's also important to note what is bad management and what is simply design decisions we would not have gone with. I would not put Skyrim, FO3, or Dragon Age in any of those categories. You could make a case for DA2, but they still managed to put together a good game in comparison to what they had. 

It is just my opinion they were badly managed due to the choices they made not being the ones I wanted them to make. Im also aware that those games were all commercially successful. I think me calling them mismanaged is about as fair as someone saying PoE is mismanaged. Maybe not fair at all :/

 

And that's the key word.

 

Successful.



#74
mudd1

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I'm more interested in actual arguments than toxic populism.

lol Each and every time I've seen your clinically depressed robot face on these forums, you have been spewing venom in the most destructive way possible. Way to go to meet your own standards.


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#75
H0RSE

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This game is a spirituel successor to games with much more than 6 classes, and additional classes were even stretch goals... Which means that your 4 million dollars are earmarked for, among other things, more than 6 classes.

 

But couldn't it be argued that if the game offered only 6 classes, but allowed for a lot of flexibility within those classes, whether through kits or whatever, that it could be as good or better than having more classes in general to choose from?

I haven't played the beta, but based on the forums, it appears there's a bunch of fuss going on about the Fighter and Rogue and how they are too inflexible. Apparently Fighter's are designed with a core purpose in mind - holding the line and taking on a more defensive roll. What if I wanted to make a Fighter that specializes in crossbows or dual-wields for a more dps approach? Are these viable or even possible choices in the current game, and if they're not, what if they were? I just built an xbow Fighter in BG2 last night, and so far, he's really fun to play. Will it be practical or even possible to do this in PoE?



#76
Lychnidos

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Everything is possible, and for viable it depends what you mean by it, being on par with a more damage oriented class, or good enough to play the game on normal? A fighter most likely won't be able to compete with a rogue damage wise, but I think the later will be possible with the addition of new talents and a little number tweaking. 



#77
Namutree

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 Will it be practical or even possible to do this in PoE?

 

Practical? No. Possible? Yes, but very crappy. 



#78
Flayeriv

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In regards to the fighter/rogue debate.

If the fighter picks up a crossbow, I'd like him to be the best at using it untrained. That is to say, if a mage or rogue with no skill in crossbow pick it up, I'd like the fighter to be better. Furthermore, if the fighter specializes I'd like him to be 'the best' at that particular weapon. Sure, he probably won't get nifty things like 'sneak attack' or the ability to 'self-buff', which may even make him subpar, but so long as he is 'the best' at both that untrained and that 'fully trained' level, I'm happy. It basically comes down to the fact that specialists should outdo the fighter, but non-specialists (or areas where the specialist is untrained) never should.

And I'm going to throw in my support for there being more than 6 classes when you have 6 characters in play. Customization is one of the things that adds to replay time, especially if I decide I want to go crazy and do a party that is entirely wizards but each one specializing in something different so that each wizard has a clearly defined yet different role, or entirely fighters who scoff at rogues, each armed with different gear and who repeatedly die 9 times out of 10 from walking on traps because scoffing rogues is a bad plan.



#79
redneckdevil

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I think the problem is we are used to classes being flexible and taking on other classes jobs. It seems that with Pillars each class has a job to do and they do it well but they dont do other classes roles. Say for instance a fighter. A fighter is designed to be a "tank" and does the job very well. Now u can make the fighter do something else that another class can do BUT wont do it as well as they would. They wont be as good as a ranger with range weapons, as a rogue with burst dmg, or as versatal as a barbarian.
Each class is designed with a purpose in mindand while u can make them do something else, they shine when they are doing what they are designed for. At least i think thats what the purpose of the classes are for. Since u cant multiclass and such.

#80
Hiro Protagonist II

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^ That's been the design decision from the start, especially with the class updates. It's similar with 4E with the roles for your characters and it really helps to have all four roles in your party in my experience with 4E pnp.







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