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Is Might a Dump Stat? Is Perception THE DPS stat?

attribute might perception dump stat dps accuracy

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#21
Karkarov

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The new stats make no sense.  If I want to make a fighter who is a powerful tank character I can dump Might and Dex but I want to max out Intelligence?????  This makes no sense, and it is non intuitive.

You haven't played a lots of MMOs, stupid Tank players don't live long...

I have played more mmo's than any other human being I have ever met.  Tanks who can't lift their sword shouldn't live long either but in Eternity Might is a completely unimportant stat for Tanks.  You can just leave it at 10 and ignore it, or even lower it to being below average.  Same with Dexterity.  In fact the only "physical" stat that matters is Constitution.  Tanking is a physical activity, you shouldn't be clumsy and physically weak and able to excel at it.  Yet that is exactly what Eternity implies.


Edited by Karkarov, 27 September 2014 - 06:42 AM.

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#22
Fiebras

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Actually from having just booted up the new version for the first time to check out the stat changes I am going to have to post something I imagine will not be popular....

 

Change it back.

 

The new stats make no sense.  If I want to make a fighter who is a powerful tank character I can dump Might and Dex but I want to max out Intelligence?????  This makes no sense, and it is non intuitive.  Dex is now basically a joke stat you can just leave at 10 for everyone, only casters are going to see huge benefit.  Perception is now massively overpowered especially for ranged characters.  Intelligence is now must have for tanks where as before it was just reasonably useful.  Resolve is now a caster stat that no one else will really get a ton of use out of since interrupts were removed from Perception.

 

I had gripes with the old stat system, I patently dislike the new one.

The thing is Fighters, Barbarians, and Monks all have very good defensive abilities that already make them good Front Liners.

But with the INT change now you could have a high INT Chanter that can be a front liner while also benefiting from the AOE.

Barbarians benefit from the INT because of Carnage, yes but that was the case before.

Dex is very useful on everyone especially DPS classes.

The only Dump stats I see now are Resolve and Might but even that is arguable as Matt has said.

 

BTW Matt, Im not arguing that the system says Might means more DPS than Perception, Im arguing that because of the potential enemies in this "campaign" having high defenses stacking accuracy would be better in the long run. Its the diference between having a D&D campaign were you have a wide variety of enemies and having a D&D campaign were you will face many trolls. Obviously in the troll campaign you will value burn/fire damage more than in the other campaign. But we wil have to see just how high the enemy defenses get in this game before we can conclude with certainty wether Might, Dex, or Perception/Accuracy is better for DPS. Im gonna stick with Accuracy/Perception for now because I enjoy crits.


Edited by Fiebras, 27 September 2014 - 07:53 AM.


#23
Matt516

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(pretend I quoted Karkarov)

Perception isn't overpowered because Range boni are pretty much worthless. Resolve is a stat for anyone who wants their abilities to last longer, not just casters. Interrupt hasn't been removed, it just isn't affected by attributes anymore (though concentration still is). Dexterity isn't better at any one thing (doing damage, improving spells, etc) than any of the other attributes, but it helps you do EVERYTHING faster. Don't underestimate that. It also gives the exact same effective damage boost as Might does to auto attacks against an unarmored character, so there's that. Intelligence is a must-have for tanks. OK, got no problem with that personally but YMMV.

Edited by Matt516, 27 September 2014 - 08:36 AM.

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#24
Azrael Ultima

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I have played more mmo's than any other human being I have ever met.  Tanks who can't lift their sword shouldn't live long either but in Eternity Might is a completely unimportant stat for Tanks.  You can just leave it at 10 and ignore it, or even lower it to being below average.  Same with Dexterity.  In fact the only "physical" stat that matters is Constitution.  Tanking is a physical activity, you shouldn't be clumsy and physically weak and able to excel at it.  Yet that is exactly what Eternity implies.


Might isn't strength. Also, swords aren't that heavy, usually ranging between 1-4kg including two-handers.

Well, real swords, not WarCraft and JRPG swords.

#25
Captain Shrek

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I have played more mmo's than any other human being I have ever met.  Tanks who can't lift their sword shouldn't live long either but in Eternity Might is a completely unimportant stat for Tanks.  You can just leave it at 10 and ignore it, or even lower it to being below average.  Same with Dexterity.  In fact the only "physical" stat that matters is Constitution.  Tanking is a physical activity, you shouldn't be clumsy and physically weak and able to excel at it.  Yet that is exactly what Eternity implies.


Might isn't strength. Also, swords aren't that heavy, usually ranging between 1-4kg including two-handers.

Well, real swords, not WarCraft and JRPG swords.

 

 

 

Swords aren't heavy, true. But have you ever tried to swing around a real one? I mean real ones that are not rapiers or modern fencing swords. They drain your stamina really really fast. Also, one to 2 kg swords are useless weapons against armour. They can penetrate armour, yes, but not deal any real bashing damage against enemies. 3 kg swords and above, those are really the weapons of battle. 

 

Not to mention warhammers, clubs, greatswords and shield bash damages are all controlled by might. 


Edited by Captain Shrek, 27 September 2014 - 10:37 AM.

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#26
Namutree

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 Intelligence is a must-have for tanks. OK, got no problem with that personally but YMMV.

There's an intelligence stat? I thought it was Intellect.



#27
Matt516

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Potato potato.
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#28
Fiebras

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Well I just tried making a Rogue of my own. A Wood elf instead of an Orlan.

I have no idea how BB Rogue manages to get 22 Perception (Orlan gives +2 Elf gives +1), only managed 19 Perception, gave her 20 Dex and 18 Might. In contrast BB Rouge has 22 Perception, 9 Might, and lik 18 Dex.

 

They both are wearing Padded Armor and are using Fine Hunting Bows (lucky drop from inn chests).

 

 

Tried against Medreth´s group.

 

Well, BB Rouge manages to hit and crit more often and does more damage overall even with just 9 Might. Switched the Arquebus between the two when fighting Lions. BB Rouge still does more damage.

 

Youd think a Wood Elfs would have more crits than an Orlan due to ranged accuracy bonus but it seems Hearth Orlan´s Minor Threat +% crit damage wins out.

 

Im not saying this is hard evudence of anything. Im just trying to figure out why BB Rouge does so much damage.



#29
Azrael Ultima

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Maybe the enemies are vulnerable to the colour red?

Swords aren't heavy, true. But have you ever tried to swing around a real one? I mean real ones that are not rapiers or modern fencing swords. They drain your stamina really really fast. Also, one to 2 kg swords are useless weapons against armour. They can penetrate armour, yes, but not deal any real bashing damage against enemies. 3 kg swords and above, those are really the weapons of battle. 
 
Not to mention warhammers, clubs, greatswords and shield bash damages are all controlled by might.

3kg+ are solely two-handers(also known as longswords or greatswords). That aside, yes, they aren't terribly useful against armor. Which is why they usually weren't used against it.

Also, Might still isn't strength. It's simply assumed that any fighter is strong enough to wield her weapon in battle effectively.

Edited by Azrael Ultima, 27 September 2014 - 12:45 PM.


#30
TheNationer

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Well I just tried making a Rogue of my own. A Wood elf instead of an Orlan.
I have no idea how BB Rogue manages to get 22 Perception (Orlan gives +2 Elf gives +1), only managed 19 Perception, gave her 20 Dex and 18 Might. In contrast BB Rouge has 22 Perception, 9 Might, and lik 18 Dex.

Well the max you can get by the numbers is 21 in certain attributes with the necessary racial/cultural bonus, if I remember correctly, 18 from attributes + 2 race + 1 culture? The NPCs can have higher because they're NPCs afaik - there maybe story events that need you to use members who have a 21 attribute + thus you can get different bonuses for picking 21 Dexterity Bob over 21 Mighty Timmy at the start? I dunno

Edited by TheNationer, 27 September 2014 - 12:52 PM.


#31
Captain Shrek

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Maybe the enemies are vulnerable to the colour red?

Swords aren't heavy, true. But have you ever tried to swing around a real one? I mean real ones that are not rapiers or modern fencing swords. They drain your stamina really really fast. Also, one to 2 kg swords are useless weapons against armour. They can penetrate armour, yes, but not deal any real bashing damage against enemies. 3 kg swords and above, those are really the weapons of battle. 
 
Not to mention warhammers, clubs, greatswords and shield bash damages are all controlled by might.

3kg+ are solely two-handers(also known as longswords or greatswords). That aside, yes, they aren't terribly useful against armor. Which is why they usually weren't used against it.

Also, Might still isn't strength. It's simply assumed that any fighter is strong enough to wield her weapon in battle effectively.

 

 

 

MIght * is * strength in the sense that it affects melee damage. I know that in this system things are ridiculous to a point in terms of name. But still, strength affects damage in real life and that is what might does. 



#32
Matt516

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Well I just tried making a Rogue of my own. A Wood elf instead of an Orlan.
I have no idea how BB Rogue manages to get 22 Perception (Orlan gives +2 Elf gives +1), only managed 19 Perception, gave her 20 Dex and 18 Might. In contrast BB Rouge has 22 Perception, 9 Might, and lik 18 Dex.

They both are wearing Padded Armor and are using Fine Hunting Bows (lucky drop from inn chests).


Tried against Medreth´s group.

Well, BB Rouge manages to hit and crit more often and does more damage overall even with just 9 Might. Switched the Arquebus between the two when fighting Lions. BB Rouge still does more damage.

Youd think a Wood Elfs would have more crits than an Orlan due to ranged accuracy bonus but it seems Hearth Orlan´s Minor Threat +% crit damage wins out.

Im not saying this is hard evudence of anything. Im just trying to figure out why BB Rouge does so much damage.


With the setup you described (same class, same weapon, same attributes(ish) except more Might for your PC), BB Rogue should do less damage. The problem is, testing a few times against Medreth isn't a good way of determining, simply because of the random variance in damage rolls. Did you by chance look at the rolls and see what each character rolled? My hunch is that BB Rogue just got more lucky crits. Either that or she's bugged. But the numbers don't lie.

#33
Azrael Ultima

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MIght * is * strength in the sense that it affects melee damage. I know that in this system things are ridiculous to a point in terms of name. But still, strength affects damage in real life and that is what might does.

Might includes strength. It is not strength. Strength is also not the only thing that affects how hard you can hit things with melee weapons in real life. It mostly affects what kind of weapons you can use effectively, actually.
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#34
Fiebras

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The thing is BB Rouge has Hearth Orlan modifier that either converts 10% hits into crits or makes the roll needed for a hit to be a crit 10% smaller (character creation and character sheet have diferent wordings), in additon to having all the Rouge abilities and having a hax +2 perception on her.

 

I didnt actually check every roll but since the Rouge´s accuracy is 56 with Reckless assault most rolls look like this:

tzM0umQ.png

 

Its either BB Rouge´s rolls are high or her accuracy is high enough to compensate for low rolls. Im still not sure how the 10% conversion of hits into crits works or how its factored into the math. The roll calculation only shows the accuracy part of it, not the damage calculations.

 

I agree testing it on Medreth fight isnt the best way to determine it but that fight has one of the highest DT NPCs (Cowled Dward with Brigadine) that is easily accesible. Its lazyness on my part.



#35
Sensuki

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Yeah well ACC-DEF = 31 is going to lead to a lot of crits, and a lot of benefit from the Might bonus too. I *think* that is a 38% chance to Crit, which is pretty High. The Hearth Orlan thing probably makes it 48%, which is like w0w imba ?

Edited by Sensuki, 27 September 2014 - 06:14 PM.


#36
Matt516

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ACC-DEF = 31 should be 36% base + 4.5% (10% of 45%) = 40.5% chance to crit. Which is quite something indeed. 



#37
mutonizer

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Yeah well ACC-DEF = 31 is going to lead to a lot of crits, and a lot of benefit from the Might bonus too. I *think* that is a 38% chance to Crit, which is pretty High. The Hearth Orlan thing probably makes it 48%, which is like w0w imba ?


Doesn't seem to be implemented yet though.


MIG, DEX, PER seems to be the go to for melee/ranged DPS just now, with ACC being THE king as usual because if affects everything.

Edited by mutonizer, 27 September 2014 - 06:57 PM.


#38
GreyFox

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Actually from having just booted up the new version for the first time to check out the stat changes I am going to have to post something I imagine will not be popular....

 

Change it back.

 

The new stats make no sense.  If I want to make a fighter who is a powerful tank character I can dump Might and Dex but I want to max out Intelligence?????  This makes no sense, and it is non intuitive.  Dex is now basically a joke stat you can just leave at 10 for everyone, only casters are going to see huge benefit.  Perception is now massively overpowered especially for ranged characters.  Intelligence is now must have for tanks where as before it was just reasonably useful.  Resolve is now a caster stat that no one else will really get a ton of use out of since interrupts were removed from Perception.

 

I had gripes with the old stat system, I patently dislike the new one.

 

I agree the new stats are pretty much...wtf?

 

Int is the tank stat....lol....wait until the public gets a hold of that one.

 

Dex isn't Dex but simply Speed and it's benefit isn't apparent and many people are going to view it as artificial unless it's explained well in game.

If it stays this way it will be grossly un-intuitive and I'd bet many players outside of these forums are not going to "get it", not to mention the name changes that should follow.

 

There are more clear choices now than there were before...and range as a stat is just as gimmicky as interrupt as a stat was.


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#39
Sensuki

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ACC-DEF = 31 should be 36% base + 4.5% (10% of 45%) = 40.5% chance to crit. Which is quite something indeed.


Yeah it shows that I've had 2 hours sleep in 48 hours xD Cognitive Ability 0

#40
tdphys

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Would somebody kindly point out the to-hit/damage dependency for stats for a poor forum lurker,  as in, is there a wiki entry somewhere?

 

It seems that Accuracy (per)  gives better chance to hit and to crit.

 

I wonder if you could fix the balance of stats by leaving Accuracy(per) as more of a better hit but not crit chance and assign intellect as giving a wider crit range.

 

It seems to me the AOE/range thing is a little too class specific, switching to crit range should benefit all classes,

 

you could motivate it as critical hits being the genius ability to exploit a situation to cause maximum damage.  (or healing? can you crit with healing spells?)


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