Do you get Attributes on Level Up?

[Lephys]

Every point-based system limits your character builds by the total possible points you can acquire. So what? But an escalating-cost point-buy system provides a means of min-maxing by using linear attribute increases with level up.

True, but, at character creation, you're still limited to what amounts to the same thing.

 

For example, if you have 6 stats, and you want a value of 5 in each stat. That costs 30 points, in a a regular point-buy system. With escalating cost added, (let's say the cost is the value you're raising the stat to, just for example -- 3 costs 3 points, 4 costs 4 points, etc.), a 5 in each stat would cost you 90 points.

 

Then, when you want not-just-all-5's, there are obvious differences: That same 30 points can get you a 6 in one stat, with 5's in the rest and a 4 in one of them. Whereas, the 90 points (escalating system) gives you back 5 points if you drop one of your stats back to 4. That puts you one point shy of being able to raise anything to 6. Etc.

 

So, it's interesting, but it's really just different math.

 

But, the other point being, once you've balanced all that out however you'd like, at the end of character creation, you've still allowed for some maximum possible stat distribution, with however many points you've allowed. THEN, the only difference is what stats you're able to raise as you level-up. So, the only difference escalating cost makes at that point (if you were to gain +1 point per level-up), is that it allows you to raise lower stats more frequently/a greater number of times than higher stats. Which, again, is different, and interesting for what it is, but if your goal is just "make sure stat increases after character creation are rare," it doesn't really impact that goal very much. Actually, if you dumped some stats, you'd get to raise those like 5 or 6 times, because lower stats would cost less to raise than higher ones. So, that would be kind of a weird thing. "Oh, just go ahead and spend those points up-front on your higher stats, and don't worry about those others being too low... you'll get to raise them like every level-up."

 

Etc. It introduces a weird dynamic, towards the goal of simply making sure stats don't increase a bunch after character creation.

 

There's nothing wrong with an escalating-cost point-buy system. I just don't think its benefit towards controlling level-progression-based stat increases is pretty negligible. So, unless it's there for some other reason (the whole game's built from the ground up around that system, like Shadowrun,) I think the best thing would just be to limit stat point gains to whatever you think is reasonable in a 12-level span.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Lephys

[Matt516]

Shadowrun system is nifty. Wouldn't work for PoE since that would require a complete redesign of all the game systems.. But it is nifty.

[Lephys]

'Tis. I like a lot of the things in the PnP Shadowrun ruleset. It does some interesting stuff. Like... Initiative and turns and all that jazz. And extra combat/spell dice pools.

 

Annnnnnywho, .

 

/digress

[Bryy]

I very much like the feeling of being able to inch my characters in the directions I want. Not knowing exactly what feats etc my team will be taking, it would be nice to adjust the attributes as i learn more about the game.

 

I think it's a minor thing.

 

Many of you have pointed out that it's the strength/weakness inherent to your character - but even those things can change over time and with effort. It's a very shallow answer, when the only real answer that is acceptable is "i prefer it that way," just as I prefer to be able to continue to manipulate attributes as my champs level up.

Being able to boost your primary attributes at every new level has always been bad design. You'd be able to break the game way too easily.

[Pray]

 

I very much like the feeling of being able to inch my characters in the directions I want. Not knowing exactly what feats etc my team will be taking, it would be nice to adjust the attributes as i learn more about the game.

 

I think it's a minor thing.

 

Many of you have pointed out that it's the strength/weakness inherent to your character - but even those things can change over time and with effort. It's a very shallow answer, when the only real answer that is acceptable is "i prefer it that way," just as I prefer to be able to continue to manipulate attributes as my champs level up.

Being able to boost your primary attributes at every new level has always been bad design. You'd be able to break the game way too easily.

 

Or it could just be balanced to allow some odd amount of stat increases throughout the game?

[Bryy]

 

 

I very much like the feeling of being able to inch my characters in the directions I want. Not knowing exactly what feats etc my team will be taking, it would be nice to adjust the attributes as i learn more about the game.

 

I think it's a minor thing.

 

Many of you have pointed out that it's the strength/weakness inherent to your character - but even those things can change over time and with effort. It's a very shallow answer, when the only real answer that is acceptable is "i prefer it that way," just as I prefer to be able to continue to manipulate attributes as my champs level up.

Being able to boost your primary attributes at every new level has always been bad design. You'd be able to break the game way too easily.

 

Or it could just be balanced to allow some odd amount of stat increases throughout the game?

 

It breaks a level of immersion, though; it destroys the challenge of getting an extra point every ten levels. If the player knows they can just dump a point into a stat every so EXP, then there is less incentive to experiment or make a well-rounded party.

[Tale]

Stat gains always bothered me because they commonly produce a treadmilling effect. Perhaps I spent too much time with DA2, D&D 3.x, and D&D4, but the stat gains always existed just to make up for increased defense of monsters. If you don't use the opportunity to buff your own to-hit, then you're effectively becoming weaker.

 

That's not customization.

[Lephys]

Stat gains always bothered me because they commonly produce a treadmilling effect. Perhaps I spent too much time with DA2, D&D 3.x, and D&D4, but the stat gains always existed just to make up for increased defense of monsters. If you don't use the opportunity to buff your own to-hit, then you're effectively becoming weaker.

 

That's not customization.

This. It works in games like Diablo, where the constant progression is essentially the core of the game. Doesn't really work when you make stats a 99% permanent, representative-of-the-actual-measure-of-a-person-thing.

 

It's not an inherently bad thing. But, it's kind of like 1st-person versus 3rd-person view. Giving Eternity 1st-person view would be pretty preposterous. So, just because first-person view is nice, and fun, doesn't mean it's a fit for this game's design. Same with anything more than quite-rare stat gains. The more you gain stats, the more pointless this specific design for the stats becomes.

[Remmirath]

There are good and bad things about both methods, I find.

 

Static ability scores mean that your character can never (except perhaps with the aid of strong magic) become stronger, wiser, or whatever else than they were at the beginning. Obviously, people actually can change those things, so this isn't completely realistic.

 

Increasing ability scores mean that your character will get very quickly stronger, wiser, or whatever else than they were at the beginning, to the point that by a certain level they will be twice as strong or wise or what as they were to begin with. Obviously, doubling in ability -- especially more than once -- is rather unlikely, so this isn't completely realistic.

 

Overall, I prefer static ability scores, although if there were some golden middle wherein one could through great effort occasionally increase one's abillity scores, that might be best. They make somewhat more sense to me than the alternative, although neither is perfect, and I feel that they work out better mechanically. There isn't the race against obseletion that, as others have mentioned, often comes of increasing ability scores. It does place more stock in initial character creation, but that's fine with me. The skills of the character will continue to increase, and that's enough.

[Lephys]

*Nod nod*. Unless you're going to go really in-depth in simulating that whole bit, you pretty much have to settle for generalized stat representations. So, really, in general, one isn't going to become cleverer, or more capable of solving math problems, etc. One isn't really going to become more resilient. For example, If I walk barefoot on a concrete driveway, it hurts my feet. My friend can do the same, and he doesn't even care. It's been the same ever since we were both kids. He's just always had no problem with it, and I've always had a problem with it.

 

Now, if I were to go become a Navy SEAL, I'd probably learn how to endure some stuff a lot better. But that wouldn't really be changing my inherent "Constitution."

 

Besides... it'd be really, really boring if the game just said "Don't worry... after a year of adventuring, you'll all be just as able to endure the elements as that one guy who is inherently really good at enduring the elements!" So, I think that's reason enough not to attempt too much simulation there. That's the main pro of this type of system: maintaining strengths and weaknesses of different characters. Sure, you might gain a point of Strength, or a point of Intelligence here and there, but you don't just get better stats for getting better, on a regular/frequent basis. When you do that, it still doesn't make much sense because it still isn't really being simulated.

 

Again, in Diablo, you might start with 20 Dexterity, and you end the game with 150 Dexterity. And it works, mechanically, but it certainly isn't simulating anything even remotely accurately. You just got almost EIGHT-times your beginning Dexterity? And you were already supposed to be a capable warrior? o_O?!

Edited October 16, 2014 by Lephys

[H0RSE]

The "realism" argument is dead. You can't use it as a basis as to why you should/shouldn't be ab;e to raise ability scores, since if realism is the argument here, then it could to apply to any element of the game, and we would just be going in circles.

 

The simple answer to whether or not raising abilities score makes sense or not, is dependent on the mechanism of the game. In a game like Diablo 2, where there are a crazy amount of ability points, and items that give bonuses like +200 dex. it makes sense to buff the attributes, but in a DnD based game like the IE games, where aside from racial/gear traits, the max for any attributes is only 18, and something that grants like +3 of anything is remarkable, it makes sense to treat attributes, or the raising of them, like a rare commodity.

Edited October 16, 2014 by H0RSE

[Sir Newbie]

Did the developers give their voice on that matter ?

[Remmirath]

Currently ability scores are static, so it can be presumed they feel that it works better with this system. I don't believe they've outright stated their reasoning behind the decision, but I may easily have missed it if they did.

 

The "realism" argument is dead. You can't use it as a basis as to why you should/shouldn't be ab;e to raise ability scores, since if realism is the argument here, then it could to apply to any element of the game, and we would just be going in circles.

It is a valid argument if one cares about realism (which I do), but it shouldn't be the only argument. I do prefer game mechanics that are believable and grounded in realism.

 

The simple answer to whether or not raising abilities score makes sense or not, is dependent on the mechanism of the game. In a game like Diablo 2, where there are a crazy amount of ability points, and items that give bonuses like +200 dex. it makes sense to buff the attributes, but in a DnD based game like the IE games, where aside from racial/gear traits, the max for any attributes is only 18, and something that grants like +3 of anything is remarkable, it makes sense to treat attributes, or the raising of them, like a rare commodity.

Quite true.

 

Mechanically, I tend to feel that very large numbers like that muddy the waters and mean that every item or bonus actually has less impact. I'd rather have a smaller range of numbers to work with; that way the difference between any given item is very readily apparent, but not so enormous that you wonder why anybody would even bother making the last item you got.

 

My preference for static abilities is due mainly to it leading somewhat in realism, with the downside that you then can't change anything much about your character's stats later, but I also have a fairly strong preference for mechanics focusing on a smaller rather than very large number range. I believe that the number range should generally be kept to the range of differences you're actually going to make use of -- so if there is actually a noticeable difference between 45 and 50, great, but if 40 and 50 are barely different at all, you probably would've been better off with 4 and 5.

[Lephys]

Currently ability scores are static, so it can be presumed they feel that it works better with this system. I don't believe they've outright stated their reasoning behind the decision, but I may easily have missed it if they did.

I don't believe they've expressly stated it, but the system itself somewhat indirectly does so. If you need 18 Intellect, for example, to deduce some clever thought in a specific dialogue, and you gain, say... 1 stat point per level... if you started at 13 Intellect, then 5 levels later, gained 18 (from allocating those level-up points), then you've gone from a person who's incapable of deducing something so clever, to someone who is inherently capable of making such a deduction.

 

Because of the way the stats function in this system, it's very strange for them to change more than a little bit. In Diablo, for example, your Dexterity doesn't ever affect any attempted roleplaying actions or anything. You don't balance better whilst walking across a bridge or anything like that. Instead, your Dexterity basically boosts the crap out of your damage-with-ranged-weapons modifier (as well as your accuracy modifier), which the system is designed around the constant/significant increase of. It's a system designed around constant progression. Not because constant progression makes any sense (especially not to such a magnitude), but because the system's not concerned with accurately representing the qualities inherent to an individual.

 

The PoE system is, however. Thus, because it is, it makes far less sense for stats to increase with any great frequency (like per-level -- 12 times in an adventure).

 

Gaining 5 Dexterity every level makes plenty of sense in the context of Diablo. It does not, however, in the context of PoE.

 

What might fit with PoE, though, is for there to be a handful of specific opportunities to increase each stat by 1 point. That way, instead of gaining 5+ generic points that you could potentially put toward the same stat, you'd still actually have room for improving your various attributes, but each only a little, relative to the scale. *shrug*

[constantine]

 

 

Ummm... What?

 

 

 

You my have a preference for static attributes, but there is nothing inherently wrong about having stat increases on level up. Attribute increases are one form of character progression that can occur in an RPG. this doersn't mean they are necessarily right for PoE, but they could easily be included in an RPG system and not have it devolve into "some powergaming hack n slash numbers game."

 

Attributes are a numerical representation of your character, her weaknesses and strengths, her liabilities, and her potential. Changing them outright means you are changing something fundamental about her physical or mental being. It is not supposed to be something taken lightly.

 

That is why a major quest, a major item, or a major character epiphany/triumph is needed to even nudge it a little.

 

Rewards given lightly become under appreciated, and in the current dark age of S.M.E.G. (Spoiled Millennial Entitled Gamers™) we have need of rarer and hence more precious cRPG rewards on the stat department.

Actually even those of us living in the 'dark ages' () have become accustomed to stat increases on lv up, since even D&D 3rd ed. introduced them, in the the form of 1 ability point every 4 lvs.