PrimeJunta Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 Based on those two maps? Go through bg1, take two random outdoor maps. Whole lotta trees, some random monsters, maybe an npc that has has some quirky dialogue and rarely a dungeon. Thats pretty much every wilderness area in that game. I dont see how poe stacks up poorly to that model. If anything, poe adds to exploration through resource management and storybook interactions. That is a legitimate opinion, also based on the maps in the BB. We are allowed different opinions, y'know. I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNationer Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 (edited) Because I have no idea from reading your forum posts, and if I was making the game I'd find it very difficult to understand what you - as one of the most active participants - actually like currently. There is almost nothing that could not be improved in some way, but here are some of the things that I think are good enough: I like the lore and setting The general writing quality, even if a bit dry sometimes ... ... Pretty much everything else could do with a little bit of improvement, to A LOT of improvement. Diamond, that's all I wanted to see. Easier to understand were someone's coming from when they lay it all out. On the whole its far easier/more efficient to tell someone where to go than where not to - which is why your attribute paper was so well received imo. Edited September 19, 2014 by TheNationer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro Protagonist II Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 Geez, there's some special snowflakes on this forum. Going by Sensuki's posts over the last few weeks, there's a lot of praise, well thought out suggestions and some criticism with the game. How anyone can have an issue with Sensuki truly baffles me. And Sensuki and I have had run ins with each other to the point of him calling me retarded or something or rather as his signature and name shaming me on the Codex. I thought it was funny though. well played. meh, water off a ducks back anyway. But I will say that Sensuki has done a terrific job over these last few weeks and if people think Sensuki has been too negative or whatever, then these people need to pull their head out of their arse. Sensuki has gone well above any of the backers with his tireless effort to make the game better imo. That I commend and praise him for. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sensuki Posted September 19, 2014 Author Share Posted September 19, 2014 If you unblock me from messenger I was going to send you an apology about that. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro Protagonist II Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 I forgot about that. It's unblocked and no problem. It's all cool. But I did find it funny just the same. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNationer Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 (edited) Geez, there's some special snowflakes on this forum. There's room for a middle ground and proper critique in this place, and the forum users deserve as much push back on the way they do things as the devs do. Edited September 19, 2014 by TheNationer 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyFox Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 (edited) Not seeing a problem here... Not much good would come from a community full of yes men who just love every mechanic simply because niche game is niche and I for one won't just accept it nor be happy with it just because it's a throw back to the "good ole days". It very much needs to live up to what it claims to be. And thank god for some of the changes and mechanics that got a 180...more hopefully will follow...including individual stealth as an example. Personally I love the feedback from the Devs but make no mistake they are totally fine with this type of feedback as opposed to backlash after the fact and the realization they put in mechanics everyone hates. The devs may totally love something but if no one wants it or will use it there isn't much sense in keeping it around which is where some of these discussions go and then more often there is a sort of compromise. This is the part of the game development process where they need as much feedback as possible and most of that is going to be what sucks or doesn't work or look right...it's not that surprising really...and certainly is par for the course for something like this. 1) That's a strawman argument, I didn't once imply the need for 'a community full of yes men', I said that positivity was as worthy of mention as negativity - especially with all the changes going on so that they don't take the good out, and so that they enhance what is good about particular classes 2) There have not been many 180s on main mechanics. The largest change will be of that in attributes, which will get tweaked thanks to Sensuki and Matt's paper - which didn't have any mention of the words 'bull****', 'awful' or 'stupid' from what I remember. An example of good critique and an entirely worthwhile assessment. 3) I said myself that most comments would be negative, its the emotional/aggressive tone of some commenters that ruin worthwhile ideas with hyperbole + unnecessary confrontation. It's like wading through a normal forum, and I think that we can all agree that we're no normal forum. #Elitism #PillarsOfElitism Pretty much your entire post count so far is a strawman.... You've driveled quite a bit on stuff I never implied or said. hah And it's not Sensuki's job to hold your hand on the things he likes it's out there for the non lazy to read. Once again your entire assessment is invalid/incorrect as most people see that hes been constructive, positive and also negative...nothing to see here folks. Edited September 19, 2014 by GreyFox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNationer Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 Once again your entire assessment is invalid/incorrect as most people see that hes (Sensuki has) been constructive, positive and also negative...nothing to see here folks. This isn't about Sensuki, the video and my conversation on this thread sorted out what I wished to know - his favourite parts of PoE. Please calm down, its this brash reponse which gets us nowhere, and (as I said in point 3 of my comment to you) the people who use this tone with the devs damage the worthwhile points they try to make 'with hyperbole + unnecessary confrontation'. I hope you understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyFox Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 Once again your entire assessment is invalid/incorrect as most people see that hes (Sensuki has) been constructive, positive and also negative...nothing to see here folks. This isn't about Sensuki, the video and my conversation on this thread sorted out what I wished to know - his favourite parts of PoE. Please calm down, its this brash reponse which gets us nowhere, and (as I said in point 3 of my comment to you) the people who use this tone with the devs damage the worthwhile points they try to make 'with hyperbole + unnecessary confrontation'. I hope you understand. High horse riding gets us no where either so once people step down from that we can indeed proceed. Once again his thoughts have been well documented all throughout the forum...it's not hard to find so my original statement in this thread is still applicable and I maintain that. Anyone PMing him about his methods were foolish and clearly not well informed....which is what *I* was saying....if it isn't about Sensuki then wtf is going on since that is clearly what I was responding about(people PMing him). So I guess the confusion lies in how you keep responding to me if you agree that Sensuki is in the right and/or this isn't about Sensuki... You haven't been coming off as harsh or mean spirited or anything what sissies were saying that?(talking about the PMs) Should have told them to put their big boy/girl pants on and learn to deal with opposing opinions.(talking about the PMs) It's pretty easy to tell when you are messing around and or having some fun with it like when you say "that's bull**** wtf is that"...in those cases you aren't literally giving them the business it's that you see the humor in it as well and non stuck up people understand what you're doing.... Maybe I could have more clearly referenced the backlash that he got in his PMs but seems easy to follow to me...I can definitely come off as brash and I don't spend too long on my posts since I'm usually very busy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sensuki Posted September 19, 2014 Author Share Posted September 19, 2014 (edited) Actually the PMs were rather nice overall it was more "hey good job man I like your beta testing, but I don't like the way you do this this and this" I thought they were fair, I just wanted to address a specific concern in the video. I'll definitely be splitting the next one up into segments rather than doing a full hour recording I suppose ... I personally prefer doing it all in one go, but a lot of people (including an ex-PE developer) said that devs probably won't watch an hour long video. I thought TheNationer's point was a fair one also, as he only has 17 posts and joined in August of this year he probably isn't aware of my post history. It would be the exception rather than the rule that anyone actually searches for someones posts as well. Edited September 19, 2014 by Sensuki 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uomoz Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 You imply that anyone who have PMd Sensuki, arguing he did something wrong, is a sissy. So anyone can critique anyone, but there are exceptions? Rofl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyFox Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 You imply that anyone who have PMd Sensuki, arguing he did something wrong, is a sissy. So anyone can critique anyone, but there are exceptions? Rofl. Many people have critiqued Sensuki not sure where you are getting there are exceptions he's open game like anyone else. But I would very much maintain that someone was a sissy if they thought he was overly harsh(as stated in the op)...and there is plenty of evidence to support that he has been fair...so for me to take the stance that "sensuki has been perfectly fair in his critique of the game"....well I'd say that's perfectly justified and certainly not excusing him from critique. I like that snowflake reference earlier...maybe some people just melt fast or maybe the RPG Codex has desensitized me haha...now that place is harsh... Actually the PMs were rather nice overall it was more "hey good job man I like your beta testing, but I don't like the way you do this this and this" I thought they were fair, I just wanted to address a specific concern in the video. I'll definitely be splitting the next one up into segments rather than doing a full hour recording I suppose ... I personally prefer doing it all in one go, but a lot of people (including an ex-PE developer) said that devs probably won't watch an hour long video. I thought TheNationer's point was a fair one also, as he only has 17 posts and joined in August of this year he probably isn't aware of my post history. It would be the exception rather than the rule that anyone actually searches for someones posts as well. Cool, good to hear. His point was fair as a general statement I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leninghola Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Having alpha/beta tested a lot of games, you're not being negative. You're beta testing properly and doing a heck of a job at it. Actually, other than a few oddballs, the beta backer community is pretty good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monte Carlo Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 I do think that there should be more discussion around what is working well. Coming from a teacher, criticism and praise are both useful in helping establish understanding. I'm a writer. I learn very little from praise in reviews. Dammit, I know what I do well myself already. I learn far more from constructive criticism. In fact brutally constructive criticism. The idea that I need my scrotum tickled in order for me to learn is nonsense. You're a teacher - you interact with young people in a learning environment. Praise and encouragement are clearly important pieces of your teacher's tool kit. This is different. Obsidian aren't students. The aren't neophyte developers pushing out their first rogue-like, digital bambis taking their first faltering steps. They are professional games developers and online community veterans. Basically, in their world, they are Sergeant Rock. They don't need our praise. They need a focussed, logical and cogent critique of what isn't working. I don't often provide that, mainly because I lack the analytical skills and IT experience folks like Sensuki has. And like others in this forum, we've all had our ups and downs (Sens is from the Codex, a place I occasionally want to expunge from the internet with fire and sword). Nonetheless, Shevek, your point is not found. This isn't eighth grade. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNationer Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 (edited) I'm a writer. I learn very little from praise in reviews. Dammit, I know what I do well myself already. I learn far more from constructive criticism. In fact brutally constructive criticism. The idea that I need my scrotum tickled in order for me to learn is nonsense. You're a teacher - you interact with young people in a learning environment. Praise and encouragement are clearly important pieces of your teacher's tool kit. This is different. Obsidian aren't students. The aren't neophyte developers pushing out their first rogue-like, digital bambis taking their first faltering steps. They are professional games developers and online community veterans. Basically, in their world, they are Sergeant Rock. They don't need our praise. They need a focussed, logical and cogent critique of what isn't working. I don't often provide that, mainly because I lack the analytical skills and IT experience folks like Sensuki has. And like others in this forum, we've all had our ups and downs (Sens is from the Codex, a place I occasionally want to expunge from the internet with fire and sword). Nonetheless, Shevek, your point is not found. This isn't eighth grade. This relies on a few fallacies: 1) PoE will get better by removing the negative, rather than increasing the positive aspects - thus positive feedback is not needed. 2) They know what they do well, but don't know what they've done badly - also meaning they haven't made something more fun accidentally (pirate pistols) 3) That people who are the 'Sgt. Rocks of their world' don't need affirmation 4) That 'critique' doesn't mention the positive aspects of what is being critiqued (so long as there are positive aspects) - it does, by definition Positivity is needed alongside negativity - the latter will nearly always be in greater number in a Beta, but that doesn't remove the need for the prior. This is all that is being said from my end (and maybe Shevek's): the highlighting of both sides when in the forums others have slowly descended into opprobrium. A final point needs to be made, positivity opens the recipient to accepting - or just continuing to listen to - your point of view. We all see good points get blended in an agitated response, and maybe this sub-conversation will do nothing about that, but it was worth a try. Edited September 20, 2014 by TheNationer 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarex Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 1) PoE can only get better by removing the negative, rather than increasing the positive aspects - thus positive feedback is not needed. Sweet, sweet, irony. "because they filled mommy with enough mythic power to become a demi-god" - KP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNationer Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 1) PoE can only get better by removing the negative, rather than increasing the positive aspects - thus positive feedback is not needed. Sweet, sweet, irony. How do you mean? Also, I was doing a super-edit of that response during yours xD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNationer Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 (edited) 1) PoE can only get better by removing the negative, rather than increasing the positive aspects - thus positive feedback is not needed. Sweet, sweet, irony. I know that's a truism- removing the negative does make stuff better. I apologise for my own garbled lack of skill with words, but hopefully when the response is taken as a whole it makes some sort of sense. Either way, I've said all I am able to on the topic, and it will be (ironically) more useful if I went back to reading other parts of the forum now xD Edited September 20, 2014 by TheNationer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anaeme Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 The work Sensuki did on the attribute system is fantastic. The developers owe him a debt of gratitude for bringing these issues to the fore. A lot of folks (myself included) are really confused once combat starts and you do not know why the expected outcomes from your build are not happening Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeCat Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 You can't be Professional with out taking criticism. Roger Ebert said Why your Movie sucks. Sensuki said why your game sucks. Both help the medium to become a better product. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monte Carlo Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 ^ This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monte Carlo Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 (edited) This relies on a few fallacies This isn't a debating society. Fallacies. Meh. It's just my opinion as someone who works in a not-dissimilar field and finds praise as anything but a superficial metric for improvement. Take it or leave it. Edited September 20, 2014 by Monte Carlo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeckul Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 And though I know it would have resulted in a lot of resistance and probably less attention from the media, I would have pushed back as much as possible against replacing the renderer. I just don't think we had the time to do it completely and well. It also really screwed up all of our GUI code and changed all of the art asset pipelines throughout production."Would that have meant having NWN2 look like NWN1? I'm certainly glad they did replace the renderer if that was the case, NWN1 looked drab in comparison. Yes the NWN2 renderer was inefficient and it took a long time before machines could run this game fast enough, but then it aged a lot better than NWN1 did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sensuki Posted September 22, 2014 Author Share Posted September 22, 2014 I'd rather a worse looking game that runs at a good frame rate than a game that looks better but runs at worse than 30 FPS. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archangel979 Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 I'd rather a worse looking game that runs at a good frame rate than a game that looks better but runs at worse than 30 FPS. Both NWN1 and 2 were 3d games and were not that nice to look at and I would also rather have one that looks a bit nicer. Luckily PoE is going old school style and will be still cool to look at in 10-15 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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