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Capitalism & Socialism


Namutree

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None of the articles Ive read suggest the money is tied to real estate so Im not sure where you two are getting that. From one of the links above: "Most of the wealth is Wall Street-generated".

why would you assume that net worth would exclude real estate holdings? one o' the great misfortunes o' the housing bubble burst a few years ago were that much o' folks "savings" were directly tied to their home value. spend 30 years to pay off an adjustable rate mortgage on a $100k home were an investment that many folks made. get to retirement and have the home value be $500k or more and mortgage complete paid so you could then sell and downsize were a common practice... and were a smarty practice too if you sold home in 90s and up til a few years ago. 

 

example: Gromnir has a relative diverse portfolio, but thanks in part to the recent real estate problems, most o' our wealth is tied to real estate as we actual were able to buy more property as record numbers o' folks went into foreclosure over the past +5 years. from a business perspective, complete pay for one revenue generating property is a foolish move when you can buy five or six for same money with great interest rates and fixed short(er)-term mortgages. all our Real money is tied to real estate. 

 

even if there were a complete real estate collapse and all our property became literal worthless, we would still be ok.... barely. nevertheless, we could only wish that the taxman were naive enough to ignore real-estate holdings and only consider stuff such as our checking account and mutual funds when determining wealth. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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Property ownership is a byproduct of having the money to purchase it in the first place. Sure, it will appreciate in value over time but at the time of purchase its only worth what you paid for it.

untrue. 

 

...

 

am not sure how much we needs go into this...

 

the property itself is similar to any commodity. is no different than owning gold save that we has more opportunities for tax breaks with real estate.  even so, unless you are speaking o' undeveloped wilderness acreage, real estate has additional value. Gromnir has more than a few single-tenant properties that create a very dependable revenue stream. multi-tenant stuff has added benefits and drawbacks, but regardless, property, unlike gold, can generate income. 

 

if Gromnir said he had a vault filled with a few million dollars worth o' gold bars, you would consider us a a millionaire, no? have millions in real estate is different how? 'cause we gotta sell? *chuckle* heck, we got a ca real estate brokers licences so we not need pay commission to an agent if we don't feel like doing so... though we typical do anyways. 

 

*shrug*

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited by Gromnir

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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I think Im not stating my point correctly. Im not saying property has no value, it has huge value, Im saying you have to spend money to make money. In the case of NY, I don't think those people are millionaires because of property.

 

you gotta scroll back up and see your comments with other posters such as gorgon. real estate is part o' the equation. the fact that it costs a ridiculous amount to own a pathetic little walk-up if you live on upper west side o' manhattan does not change the fact that the owner o' the "condo" is having their monetary worth partial determined by the value o' their home.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited by Gromnir

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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ps that were our whole point about the real estate housing bubble bursting and the effect it had. many people viewed the equity in their home as an investment akin to a savings account, but better. those folks were correct until only a few years ago. your house has value. ignore the value o' a person's home would be a rather suspect approach to determining the person's overall net worth. 

 

say a person is not a millionaire but ignore the $500k equity they got in the crakerjack box sized condo they own would be odd.

 

HA! Good Fun!

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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Capitalism is the only way to go. Socialism doesn't make sense at all. Why should I be forced to pay for some lowlife who cannot hold a simplest job? Why should I pay for someones healthcare, food, education and so on? I have me and my family to care for.

Not all socialist would let people be lazy lowlifes. The USSR often had work quota's people had to complete... or else.

Living in former soviet republic I know. Everybody worked, everybody was doing over 100% of plan yet there were empty shelfs in stores and everything was scarce. We had this saying "whether standing or laying 3000 we will earn".

 

 

Well, now it's MUCH better with capitalism in Poland. Now the shelves are full with iphones, but nobody has money to buy bread, the purchasing power has decreased monumentally. In fact your country is so poor, your people are running away from it like rats from a sinking ship into all of Western Europe to work as plumbers and and other low quality jobs. When I need someone to plunge their fist into my toilet and push that clog, I know when I call a plumber company they'll send me a pole. Poles would do anything for money, that is when they're not in a drunken coma.

 

I've been to Poland. Retirees are as poor as homeless people, makes you want to give them charity. When you go outside the tourist zones, you're immediately in extreme dirt and ruins. As soon as you leave the city, it's a backwoods village in the middle of nowhere, some pathetic wrecks of houses, garbage and poor people everywhere.

 

You've had decades and you've achieved exactly nothing with capitalism, your country is Uganda of Europe. You need to be governed by someone from the outside, obviously. I think we'll end up appointing you a European president, because for a EU member your sure don't look like one. You've had 2.5 decades to play with your 'freedom' and look where it got you. Enough is enough, now let the actual white people do the job.

 

Praga-a-poor-area-of-Wars-007.jpg

 

P.S. Poland was never a soviet republic. I guess education in Poland isn't a number 1 priority either.

Edited by Bester
IE Mod for Pillars of Eternity: link
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List of Countries by GDP (PPP) per Capita:

17      Germany      43,332     
21      Belgium      40,338
[.....]
45      Malaysia     23,298
46      Poland       23,275
47      Kazakhstan   23,206

I don't even have to comment. Malaysia is doing better than Poland. Borat from Kazakhstan is breathing down at Poles' neck.

They've clearly demonstrated their inability to govern themselves and their inability to live in capitalism.

Edited by Bester
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GDP means near poop. It's a fabricated number that doesn't take into consideration a *ton* of variables.

 

Polak, please. You didn't even notice the "PPP" part, because you're such a competent economist that you don't even know what it means, so you simply ignored it.

 

As for "tons" of variables that the GDP doesn't take into account, I'm all ears. I'm waiting for at least 10 variables that the evil western GDP doesn't take into account to humiliate poor poland.

 

 

Poland does just fine.

So fine that Poles are fleeing their fine country to work as plumbers all over Europe unclogging toilets. Cause unclogging toilets is still better than living in Poland.

 

 

I've many many friends there.

Very relevant, as is most of your post. But frankly, your personal feelings have got nothing to do with objective reality.

Edited by Bester
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@Sharp_one: Bester is just a troll; don't bother debating him.

 

Don't worry about Sharp_one, he's not squeeky clean himself either. Although to be honest, the things he says are not for trolling. Not sure if that's really a plus, though.

Never attribute to malice that which can adequately be explained by incompetence.

 

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@Sharp_one: Bester is just a troll; don't bother debating him.

 

Don't worry about Sharp_one, he's not squeeky clean himself either. Although to be honest, the things he says are not for trolling. Not sure if that's really a plus, though.

 

It is to me.

"Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking.

 

I use blue text when I'm being sarcastic.

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Probably because it isn't true. Unless it's defined as all the most exepensive real estate down town or some such technicality, and greater New York is what we think of as New York.

 

The first two pages of Google search results disagrees with you.

 

"Lots of people believe it, so it must be true"?

This particularly rapid, unintelligible patter isn't generally heard, and if it is, it doesn't matter.

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ps that were our whole point about the real estate housing bubble bursting and the effect it had. many people viewed the equity in their home as an investment akin to a savings account, but better. those folks were correct until only a few years ago. your house has value. ignore the value o' a person's home would be a rather suspect approach to determining the person's overall net worth. 

 

say a person is not a millionaire but ignore the $500k equity they got in the crakerjack box sized condo they own would be odd.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

You may come up with any conclusions you like. It could be from real estate, it could be from 401k, it could be from rare artwork, it could be from drug dealing, it could be from a prostitution ring, it could be from a prostitution ring where the hookers bring you drugs. :shrugz: Im going to take the article at face value:  "Most of the wealth is Wall Street-generated".

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Communism is as dead as insofar as it is marginalized and irrelevant as an international political movement, which was one of its key aims after all.

So not dead, just "marginalized" and "irrelevant" (the latter of course being incorrect). Our argument was one of semantics.

@Sharp_one: Bester is just a troll; don't bother debating him.

They're as bad as each other. Edited by Barothmuk
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@Sharp_one: Bester is just a troll; don't bother debating him.

They're as bad as each other.

 

I think Sharp_one's country might have been traumatized by the USSR to a point where he's quite bitter towards the very idea of socialism. That would be my guess; not that I blame him. I likely dislike socialism as much as he does, but for less emotional reasons. I can't read his mind so perhaps I've misunderstood him.

"Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking.

 

I use blue text when I'm being sarcastic.

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I meant his racism.

I've never seen any racist post from him, not saying they don't exist; only that I haven't seen any of them. So that didn't come to mind.

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"Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking.

 

I use blue text when I'm being sarcastic.

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Yes, the subject. 

 

IF you want to say that a welfare state such as they exist in Western-Europe is socialist (which I don't really think constitutes socialism, but okay, let's accept that for debate's sake - I would personally say they have merely been influenced by ideas from socialist theory) then I don't see how you can say that socialism and capitalism are opposite ends of a spectrum. At best you can say that capitalism in these countries is limited, but it's like there is a single country in the world where there really exists such a thing as pure capitalism. If you would allow pure capitalism to reign, in the end you'd just replace the all powerful government you'd get in communism with an all powerful megacorp that'd you'd get in a purely capitalist world. 

 

The welfare state is as much socialist as it is capitalist, if you want to talk in such terms. 

 

The choice "Capitalism or Socialism" is much too simplistic. It's making things out to be black and white when there are many shades of grey. Between the different countries in Europe there are quite vast differences in how far they lean to either doing things collectively or putting the burden on the individual, and between allowing people choice or trying to protect people from themselves.

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Never attribute to malice that which can adequately be explained by incompetence.

 

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