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The single thing that would make you happier with POE.

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So to parraphrase Gromnir's wall: combat feedback.

Everyone seems to be in agreement on wanting combat feedback but maybe the issue is that people are actually getting overwhelmed by the amount of combat feedback (flashy spells! Your time bar! Your stamina! Your health! The enemy time bars! The enemy health! What spells are being queued? Watch out for that big wizard aoe! Loud noises! Etc.) We got plenty of combat feedback.

What I think everyone is asking for is Combat CLARITY or feedback clarity.

Characters already have icons next to their model health bar in combat describing what they are doing and what actions they are queuing, but its basically transparent and tiny.

You cant easily see who your fighter is engaged with. An artor or line or chain linking the circles would help.

And you also have to select each character to see some information when it would be easier if they just made that information available when you pause or hit the slow key.

 

Combat clarity/transparency, not more feedback(ok maybe just a little more feedback but with clarity)

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^ Well put, sir.

 

I think that's what people mean.


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So to parraphrase Gromnir's wall: combat feedback.

Everyone seems to be in agreement on wanting combat feedback but maybe the issue is that people are actually getting overwhelmed by the amount of combat feedback (flashy spells! Your time bar! Your stamina! Your health! The enemy time bars! The enemy health! What spells are being queued? Watch out for that big wizard aoe! Loud noises! Etc.) We got plenty of combat feedback.

What I think everyone is asking for is Combat CLARITY or feedback clarity.

Characters already have icons next to their model health bar in combat describing what they are doing and what actions they are queuing, but its basically transparent and tiny.

You cant easily see who your fighter is engaged with. An artor or line or chain linking the circles would help.

And you also have to select each character to see some information when it would be easier if they just made that information available when you pause or hit the slow key.

 

Combat clarity/transparency, not more feedback(ok maybe just a little more feedback but with clarity)

 

Great sum-up. And IMO, this means simplify, use low and clean numbers, and remove redundancy in combat mechanics in order to make combat more visceral and intuitive. If this means sacrificing stamina and just keeping health + maimed states, than so be it. If this means removing glancing blows and constant normalized damage output, then so be it, just to name two examples. 

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*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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I think hit/crit/graze/ miss is fine as you have the combat log for it. Maybe simplify the wording/report even if that means hulk speech reports.

You could also color-code the reports depending on graze, miss hit or crit but that could create more overwhelming information. Simplicity means you only care if you hit or miss and how much but if you want to see if its a graze crit or plain hit you have the comat log.

 

But I think we should have this discussion elsewere so as to not continue to derail the thread which was suposed to be about simple statements.

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I don't know, Kronos did say that he wanted more than just a quick statement about what was wrong but also ideas about how to fix it.  ...And, unlike other issues, like XP systems, which are bitterly contested, or bugs, which, as Grom says, are largely identified and on the docket for fixin', the issue of combat and combat feedback is something of a philosophical issue that see wide agreement in this forum and might see movement in a positive direction with player feedback.


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Remembering tarna, Phosphor, Metadigital, and Visceris.  Drink mead heartily in the halls of Valhalla, my friends!

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" half of what is occurring in battles is functional a "mystary."  am knowing that the obsidians think the "mystary" bit is funny, but is Gromnir's opinion that squad-based, tactical combat should be a bit more transparent. "

 

ok, we stated what we think is a problem. we gave specific example o' enemy buffs to as further illustration o' what we intend.

 

...

 

even so, we don't see an ez fix.  bugs is relative speaking, ez fixes once identified. how do we fix the lack o' transparency for even one issue such as enemy buffs? is there a fix? then again, perhaps is a gestalt thing. as we noted earlier, bg2 didn't have similar transparency, but it didn't have same functional complexity due to PoE adding o' multiple new mechanics. we would be quite happy if obsidian did come up with a solution, but we cannot offer anything constructive. as such we is cynical that fixing what appears to be a design issue would be largely beyond the capacity to fix before 2014 ends. 

 

'course, some solutions is gordian knot kinda things. folks not wanna admit that quest/task/objective xp is one such solution, but it is. nevertheless, perhaps the transparency issue is one such case that the solution is so simple and Gromnir still ain't seeing it

 

"Turn-based combat."

 

am suspecting that this is too obvious o' a solution. we prefer tb, but from the start this game were being sold as real-time with pause. the minutiae folks is railing 'bout as violating the spiritual successorship o' PoE to the ie games would be as nothing compared to the rage tb would inspire from some folks... though we thinks we would be amused by how many peoples would be on inexplicably opposite polarities regarding tb v. other essential ie qualities.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

edit: had to edit out our cant quote... board software didn't like something about what cant said, but just assume we is directly responding to cant's post.

Edited by Gromnir

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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I think saying its a philosophical issue is being needlessly drastic. The current clarity of combat feedback is an issue with the design in which that feedback is transmited to the player and its definately improvable without drastic changes.

 

To use an architecture example: If the in-progress floor plans that will be used to build a building have all the information (levels, quotes, axes, signs, linetypes, etc) but its placement is poorly designed or its overlapping, the architect revises it and fixes it. He doesnt need to re-design the whole building for it and it isnt a matter of his architecture philosophy.

And I believe we have enough feedback but it simply isnt being broacasted to us in the best way possible. Thankfully this is still a work in progress and thats why we are providing feeback.

 

Its very easy to use hyperboles on the internet, particulary about our own opinons or opinions we agree on. Its even easier to go "scrap this whole thing and re-design it". I would argue for more surgical changes that dont require ovehauls. Minimum change for maximum impact. Think a lot to work very little. A scalpel instead of an axe. Lets work with what we got now and improve it.

Feel free to agree or disagree.

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@Fiebras I definitely want combat clarity, but I believe that clarity requires both more and better feedback. I also dispute that there's all that much of it in right now. 

 

There are spell FX, for sure, and some do provide meaningful feedback. Most don't; they just obscure what's going on. On the other hand, at least the following -- off the top of my head -- have either poor or no feedback (mouseover counts as poor feedback; it's good for supplemental info but not essential and immediate): 

  • Engagement. Needs link, arrowhead, or similar, connected to the selection circle.
  • Hit. Needs sound effect and blood spatter, scaled with how successful the hit was.
  • Crit. Let's have the screen shake from the IE games, m'kay?
  • (We can ignore grazes and misses, I think; they might just clutter up feedback too much.)
  • Most damage eaten up by DT. At the very least, a "My weapon is ineffective!" bark. Preferably something more informative. Also needs a sound effect. Perhaps change the floaty numbers to show how much of the attack was soaked by DT.
  • Mouseover feedback connecting the portrait and model. Mouse over one, the other one brightens.
  • Current action displayed as icons on the portrait, clearly separated from the status effect icons above them (which are rather small and hard to make out ATM). Now all we have is that teeny little sword, move, or cast symbol in the circle near the model. Not sufficient.
  • Visual and auditory feedback for characters like the monk and cipher, when they gain wounds or focus; for ciphers additionally when their focus goes up enough to permit a new spell level. I would flash the portrait border and have a sound effect or associated combat bark. 

So yeah, clarity. And transparency. But also feedback.

 

And yeah, those and more were all listed in Sensuki #008, which, I must remind everyone, is exactly how Obs ought to do it. 

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I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com

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All I was saying is that getting into the combat feedback was not a terrible thing since there was fairly broad agreement.  I guess you don't like the word 'philosophy,' Fiebras, but I don't think they should reinvent the wheel.  I was just saying that it was something open for debate that might actually see some movement.  I didn't feel like it was a dramatic statement and I still don't see it as hyperbolic.  Then again, I think most of our discussion about things here are philosophical by nature.

 

EDIT:  one not made all the difference

Edited by Cantousent

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@ Primejunta: Oh I agree that "more" feedback is probably necesary though we probably differ in just how much more is needed. And I think that by making the feedback clearer we would need less extra feeback. Its like nutrition. If your meals are not nutritious then you feel you need more of it to make up for it. Or maybe that was empty calories. Sorry, Im not a nutritonist lol. I hope you get what Im getting at.

 

@Cantousent: Im just nitpicky with how people word things. It can mean a world of diference. The dramatic part wasnt being aimed at you, it was just a broad statement regarding internet posting in general. Seriously, dont think too much on it and sorry if it sounded heavy-handed. :)

Edited by Fiebras

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Some kind of visible action queue.


Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt. - Julius Caesar

 

:facepalm: #define TRUE (!FALSE)

I ran across an article where the above statement was found in a release tarball. LOL! Who does something like this? Predictably, this oddity was found when the article's author tried to build said tarball and the compiler promptly went into cardiac arrest. If you're not a developer, imagine telling someone the literal meaning of up is "not down". Such nonsense makes computers, and developers... angry.

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- Steal more mechanics and visual style of the IE games. Do not reinvent the wheel.
- The POE fight is confusing and fast
= mess. Looks like I have no control over my characters during combat and it seems that the strategy is not important at all.

- Reduce frames per second. Maybe limit the fps to 30 fps. You'll get a more cinematic look.

- Mow the lawn.  I can't see anybody on the grass.

Edited by adam77
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I'd like a romantic subplot. The fact there isn't one is my biggest problem with PoE. :s I don't even need it to be super detailed. It can be super fluffy, I'm cool with that. I'm also cool with it not ending well, or even being one-sided. 

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Minsk and Boo for sure.

Well, you know, there is actually a pet system...

 

"Hamsters and rangers everywhere, rejoice!"

 

 

I want a kitty though.

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A Muscle Wizard easter egg fight.


"The Courier was the worst of all of them. The worst by far. When he died the first time, he must have met the devil, and then killed him."

 

 

Is your mom hot? It may explain why guys were following her ?

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