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Infinitron

Josh says: PoE's Fighters and Rogues aren't boring

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I didn't say that we couldn't make stealth/scouting selective for characters or that we couldn't make individual party members invisible in combat, but there are often bugs that arise from it.  I've already talked to Steve about it and will talk to Tim about it right after post this.

If it would help minimize bug potential, seems to me that just a global "you're still stealthed or you aren't" status would be fine. Or, in other words, it would be great if the Rogue (for example) could still be unseen while the rest of your party is seen, but it's also fine if Foe A spots your Rogue, and Foe B automatically knows where he is, too. Well, not so much knows where he is... but...

 

Basically, being detected by anyone could toggle you out of "stealth" status, and I'd be fine with that, if it means gaining the tactical repertoire of individually-stealthed characters.

 

I think it's a happy medium.

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Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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BTW I talked to Tim et al. about invisibility as a state and selective scouting.  Invisibility as a state is much easier to do and both Tim and Dave will likely work on it in the near future.

Sweet.

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If it would help minimize bug potential, seems to me that just a global "you're still stealthed or you aren't" status would be fine. Or, in other words, it would be great if the Rogue (for example) could still be unseen while the rest of your party is seen, but it's also fine if Foe A spots your Rogue, and Foe B automatically knows where he is, too. Well, not so much knows where he is... but...

Basically, being detected by anyone could toggle you out of "stealth" status, and I'd be fine with that, if it means gaining the tactical repertoire of individually-stealthed characters.

...

 

 My guess would be that, even doing it this way, you would have interference between the stealth UI and the new combat feedback UI that is being implemented. Of course, I'm not an Obsidian dev. (nor do I play one on TV), so that may have nothing to do with it.

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Asking is fine, and if you want you can start off a question by asking us to confirm/deny that we're incompetent dummies, but I don't think it's helpful.

 

 

Hey now, that wasn't my intention. It's a beta - I would expect it to have things that aren't enabled yet to due to them being buggy and not working yet, and I wouldn't consider that to be a sign of incompetence.

 

Nevertheless, when something that players would expect as a standard feature isn't enabled/working yet and the project lead says it leads to a "huge number of bugs", that isn't exactly a good thing, right? It certainly doesn't sound good. It doesn't mean you're incompetent and that you'll fail to implement it if you try, but it does smell like trouble.

 

Anyway, glad to hear you're working on it.

Edited by Infinitron

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Whole party stealth is fine for scouting, and if it makes things less buggy too, that's fine.

My main concern with the rogue was being able to scout, sneak attack to start the battle - and then getting dogpiled by the enemy.

Does the rogue's 'escape' ability help there?

Or being able to stay hidden while the enemy confront your fighter and then join the batte with a flanking attack at the opportune moment.

 

Individual stealth just seemed part of the rogue's archetype :ninja:

If it can be added through a (maybe limited per rest/encounter) skill/talent to work in such a way, that'd be great :)


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Stealth shouldn't be an encounter/daily power. You already have stealth for individual members of your party through your skills. They're individual skills and you should be able to select your character with high stealth like your rogue and stay hidden while your party is out of stealth mode. If my rogue has a high stealth and my fighter doesn't, I expect to be able to send my rogue as an individual ahead with stealth. The party stealth confuses me more if I have a Fighter with 0 stealth and clanking down a dungeon in plate armour but my rogue has high stealth and this helps with the overall party stealth? I don't know. I'm also for party stealth, I just don't know how it's worked out.

Edited by Hiro Protagonist II
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Random thoughts on fighters, rogues and D&D.

 

I think POE fighters feel less versatile than IE fighters in large part because of the engagement system. When you're free to disengage and go after other targets, even if you only option is hit with stick, it feels better. With the engagement system if teels like once you've engaged you just sit there until either you or the target is down.

 

Also, D&D fighters are really good at both attacking and taking hits. POE almost feels like fighters and rogues half-classes split from fighters. It makes me wish it was one class and I could pick either defensive or offensive capabilties, or even just pick a subclass at some point.

 

My fighter is boring because I just plop him in front of enemies and let him absorb damage while my ranged characters do cool things.

 

My rogue is boring because at level 5, I'm doing at most 4 things in one encounter, and the stun attack is so situational I rarely use it. So the rogue just becomes an archer.

 

If you change either too much though, they no longer feel like fighters and rogues. Also, if you make them too micro-intensive, it could make the game feel worse overall even if it improves them specifically. There is a theory that IE games were only managable because 2-3 of the 6 where super low maintenance. Just point at enemy and click attack.

 

More of an incentive to have rogues mix it up in melee would help.

 

For fighters maybe an ability (either activated or modal) that lets them take reduced damage from AoOs so they can get back some of the mobility they had in IE?

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Stealth shouldn't be an encounter/daily power. You already have stealth for individual members of your party through your skills. They're individual skills and you should be able to select your character with high stealth like your rogue and stay hidden while your party is out of stealth mode. If my rogue has a high stealth and my fighter doesn't, I expect to be able to send my rogue as an individual ahead with stealth. The party stealth confuses me more if I have a Fighter with 0 stealth and clanking down a dungeon in plate armour but my rogue has high stealth and this helps with the overall party stealth? I don't know. I'm also for party stealth, I just don't know how it's worked out.

Did we begin to talk in circles?  Correct me if I took it wrong but what Sawyer wrote in this thread as a possible implementation seems to me like a common scenario below.
 
While in Scout Mode, Rogue positions him/herself within the range of his/her ranged weapon and hits his/her target with Sneak Attack and probably with an active ability such as Crippling Strike.  Of course, all the enemies near the target suddenly aware of the attacker and rush into the poor Rogue, which is the current scenario.  With the implementation suggested here, the Rogue automatically turns into invisible state through his/her new ability and the enemies rush into other party members who are chosen by their AIs.  So, Stealth skill plays its role before the combat starts as usual while the Rogue doesn't need to waste Escape here.
 
Additionally, what I asked for was letting the ability of getting into Invisible State as an active ability which can be used at will-Of course, in combat and with a limited number of usage.
 
Well, at least, this is about invisibility as a special ability for Rogue while some other people legitimately talk about the selective scouting.

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Bobbin, what you're talking about are different versions of D&D. Fighters in PoE are Fighters from 4th ed. They're quite inflexible.

 

Also, rogues should be in melee as is the case with 4th ed. That's the best way to play them.

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Did we begin to talk in circles?  Correct me if I took it wrong but what Sawyer wrote in this thread as a possible implementation seems to me like a common scenario below.
 
While in Scout Mode, Rogue positions him/herself within the range of his/her ranged weapon and hits his/her target with Sneak Attack and probably with an active ability such as Crippling Strike.  Of course, all the enemies near the target suddenly aware of the attacker and rush into the poor Rogue, which is the current scenario.  With the implementation suggested here, the Rogue automatically turns into invisible state through his/her new ability and the enemies rush into other party members who are chosen by their AIs.  So, Stealth skill plays its role before the combat starts as usual while the Rogue doesn't need to waste Escape here.
 
Additionally, what I asked for was letting the ability of getting into Invisible State as an active ability which can be used at will-Of course, in combat and with a limited number of usage.
 
Well, at least, this is about invisibility as a special ability for Rogue while some other people legitimately talk about the selective scouting.

 

 

I find that implementation quite odd. The rogue scouts ahead, shoots an enemy and turns invisible? Shouldn't it be the Rogue is already invisible, shoots an enemy and breaks stealth? Going to its absurd conclusion, this could apply to all party members who have high stealth. They all scout ahead, shoot an enemy and all turn invisible? Like a party of rogues? But why limit it to rogues with high stealth? Why not the fighter or Mage who has high stealth? Vanishing parties.

 

Also, the at will encounter power would have to be a free encounter power (with possible number of times in encounters). As soon as you start putting points in stealth, you're automatically awarded an at will encounter power. Why not just call it a utility power instead of an at will or daily like it is in 4th ed? And this should apply to all classes. And why would the rogue get a stealth at will and not the Fighter who may have a higher stealth? Again, taking it to it's absurd conclusion, have a party of rogues in combat, all hit stealth and vanish. You now have a party of ninjas.

Edited by Hiro Protagonist II

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As explained by Sawyer, the "whole party scouting" thing makes sense to me. This doesn't diminish the value of rogues, since they can be much better at it than the other members of the group. Using stealth during fights could be interesting of course, but that doesn't necessarily imply changing the current stealth mechanics (could be accomplished via an ability or something).

 

The detection circles look like programmer art though, I would assume this will have some aesthetic value in the final game. Otherwise it feels like playing with some debug commands on.

 

I personally was fine with fighters being so simple to play in the IE games. The tactical depth comes from managing 6 characters, not so much individual character flexibility. I am cautiously optimistic about combat eventually becoming fun to play in PoE, but I'm concerned that all this "flexibility" might translate in overwhelming micromanagement.

 

What I did want in the IE games was more ways to customize my character progression. The level up screen too often had you just press "OK" without even making a single decision.

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I find that implementation quite odd. The rogue scouts ahead, shoots an enemy and turns invisible? Shouldn't it be the Rogue is already invisible, shoots an enemy and breaks stealth? Going to its absurd conclusion, this could apply to all party members who have high stealth. They all scout ahead, shoot an enemy and all turn invisible? Like a party of rogues? But why limit it to rogues with high stealth? Why not the fighter or Mage who has high stealth? Vanishing parties.

 

Also, the at will encounter power would have to be a free encounter power (with possible number of times in encounters). As soon as you start putting points in stealth, you're automatically awarded an at will encounter power. Why not just call it a utility power instead of an at will or daily like it is in 4th ed? And this should apply to all classes. And why would the rogue get a stealth at will and not the Fighter who may have a higher stealth? Again, taking it to it's absurd conclusion, have a party of rogues in combat, all hit stealth and vanish. You now have a party of ninjas.

No, the suggested implementation seems like Rogue Soul-based ability, at least, that is, if I'm not mistaken.  Meaning, it's not natural in our eyes since it's magical.  I don't think I need to remind you that we are talking of an imaginary magic-based setting.  At least, it contributes to the gameplay.
 
Also, Fighters with high stealth skill will be benefitted as well as Rogue with it.  If I have to repeat, when combat starts what counts is abilities-Rogues have got the special ability while Fighters don't.  The skill of Rogue can be supplemented by the ability but Fighters are not since they are, as you wrote, defender units-while Rogues can be ninjas to some extent.

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The detection circles are programmer art, though tonight Kaz came up with a great idea how to better represent stealth/detection that a) doesn't involve visible circles at all b) is still fully deterministic c) can scale infinitely with character level d) brings back some ambiguity and "play" to the system.  I still need to talk with Tim and BMac about it, but I think it will work much better than what's in the game currently.

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No, the suggested implementation seems like Rogue Soul-based ability, at least, that is, if I'm not mistaken.  Meaning, it's not natural in our eyes since it's magical.  I don't think I need to remind you that we are talking of an imaginary magic-based setting.  At least, it contributes to the gameplay.
 
Also, Fighters with high stealth skill will be benefitted as well as Rogue with it.  If I have to repeat, when combat starts what counts is abilities-Rogues have got the special ability while Fighters don't.  The skill of Rogue can be supplemented by the ability but Fighters are not since they are, as you wrote, defender units-while Rogues can be ninjas to some extent.

 

 

You're still ignoring a rogue only party turning into ninjas.

 

Also now the skills like stealth are being dumbed down for the other classes and the rogue benefits more? Why bother putting stealth points in for my fighter or mage if my rogue can get extra benefits on top of the stealth points. Rogues already get a head start in points and now it's being changed for even more rogue like.

 

Well as you correctly pointed out, this is an imaginary magic-based setting and if Fighters can already get benefits from stealth, then they shouldn't automatically be excluded from stealth like abilities with utility powers. Yeah the Fighter can stealth but not stealth in combat. Same with the mage at range. The mage can stealth but then automatically gets booted from stealthing when combat starts before the mage does anything else. Does not compute.

Edited by Hiro Protagonist II

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The detection circles are programmer art, though tonight Kaz came up with a great idea how to better represent stealth/detection that a) doesn't involve visible circles at all b) is still fully deterministic c) can scale infinitely with character level d) brings back some ambiguity and "play" to the system.  I still need to talk with Tim and BMac about it, but I think it will work much better than what's in the game currently.

And I somehow thought that he was an illustrator (I mean, a good one) while, reading what he wrote tells me he is not just that.  Thanks for the heads-up, Sawyer, anyway.

 

@Hiro Protagonist II

?  Sorry, I don't understand what you are saying here.

 

[Edit]"It's pretty obvious. Read my posts again."

It's funny since these are the words I was going to tell you here.  I read but I still don't understand.  :p- I've gotten an impression that there is a misunderstanding but I cannot point my finger at it.  My point has been being, since the invisibility is Rogue's special ability which supplements Sneak Attack, he/she is benefited by it in combat while he still needs to rely on conventional Stealth Skill as well as other classes.  Since there seems to be a critical misunderstanding, I doubt it would help if I repeat myself, though.  In any case, I'd rather like to enjoy the new info offered by busy Sawyer here.[/Edit]

Edited by Wombat

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Only tangentially related, but we've already made changes to the Stamina (soon to be Endurance) and Health system that should a) make front-line characters (like fighters) more survivable in the long-term and b) make the system clearer overall.

 

The previous system kept Stamina and Health values pretty much equal.  Behind the scenes, as you took damage, a fraction of what went to Stamina would go to Health.  That fraction was smaller for barbarians with Thick-Skinned, but otherwise it was the same for all classes.

 

We now simply apply damage 1:1 to Stamina (Endurance) and Health, but Health is determined differently for different classes (but always through a multiplier).  Front-line characters are expected to take a lot of abuse and get combat-healed more often, so they have a superior ratio of Endurance to Health.  This will (well, actually it already does in our initial playtests) help prevent front-liners from forcing the party to rest after two fights even when the rest of the group has a lot of per rest abilities and Health left.  The ratios are very easy to tune, but most importantly, it is much, much clearer how everything works.

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And I somehow thought that he was an illustrator (I mean, a good one) while, reading what he wrote tells me he is not just that.  Thanks for the heads-up, Sawyer, anyway.

 

Kaz has done most of our UI art and he grew up on the IE games, so he (and many other people on the team, honestly) has a lot of feedback for UI and general gameplay issues.  Obsidian encourages everyone on the team to give feedback.  Designers still give the majority of feedback but we get it from everyone.

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@Hiro Protagonist II

?  Sorry, I don't understand what you are saying here.

 

It's pretty obvious. Read my posts again.

 

It's funny since these are the words I was going to tell you here.  I read but I still don't understand.   :p- I've gotten an impression that there is a misunderstanding but I cannot point my finger at it.  My point has been being, since the invisibility is Rogue's special ability which supplements Sneak Attack, he/she is benefited by it in combat while he still needs to rely on conventional Stealth Skill as well as other classes.  Since there seems to be a critical misunderstanding, I doubt it would help if I repeat myself, though.  In any case, I'd rather like to enjoy the new info offered by busy Sawyer here.

 

Yep, it's your misunderstanding since I've made it very clear to you.

 

And as I said, if you have a party of 6 rogues which you can have in the game and they all go into stealth at the same time, even in combat, they all turn into ninjas. So yes, it's a critical misunderstanding on your part. Trying to make out that it's me is just poor form and a very weak tactic. But nice try trying to deflect this onto me instead of debating the points.

Edited by Hiro Protagonist II

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Only tangentially related, but we've already made changes to the Stamina (soon to be Endurance) and Health system that should a) make front-line characters (like fighters) more survivable in the long-term and b) make the system clearer overall.

 

The previous system kept Stamina and Health values pretty much equal.  Behind the scenes, as you took damage, a fraction of what went to Stamina would go to Health.  That fraction was smaller for barbarians with Thick-Skinned, but otherwise it was the same for all classes.

 

We now simply apply damage 1:1 to Stamina (Endurance) and Health, but Health is determined differently for different classes (but always through a multiplier).  Front-line characters are expected to take a lot of abuse and get combat-healed more often, so they have a superior ratio of Endurance to Health.  This will (well, actually it already does in our initial playtests) help prevent front-liners from forcing the party to rest after two fights even when the rest of the group has a lot of per rest abilities and Health left.  The ratios are very easy to tune, but most importantly, it is much, much clearer how everything works.

I'm not totally understanding this based on the explanation. Does this mean that a fighter with 30 endurance will have 60 health? Or more like 120 health?

 

Because if it's not closer to the latter, it seems like it would cause characters to die FASTER.

 

 

Edit - Or perhaps the other option is they have something like 180 (x6) health. Maybe Barbarians have 240 (x8) health, priests have 150 (x5), and wizards have 120 (x4) -- or something like that.

 

If that's what it is, that could be cool, but it seems like those health amounts would get astronomically high very quickly.

Edited by Marceror
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You're still ignoring a rogue only party turning into ninjas.

 

Also now the skills like stealth are being dumbed down for the other classes and the rogue benefits more? Why bother putting stealth points in for my fighter or mage if my rogue can get extra benefits on top of the stealth points. Rogues already get a head start in points and now it's being changed for even more rogue like.

 

Well as you correctly pointed out, this is an imaginary magic-based setting and if Fighters can already get benefits from stealth, then they shouldn't automatically be excluded from stealth like abilities with utility powers. Yeah the Fighter can stealth but not stealth in combat. Same with the mage at range. The mage can stealth but then automatically gets booted from stealthing when combat starts before the mage does anything else. Does not compute.

 

Party stealth is for scouting / sneaking past an enemy - nothing has been 'dumbed down' as it hasn't changed - rogue invisi-like ability is a class-power used in combat (like grimoire slam or wild sprint).   Also needn't be simulationist to make for better gameplay.   Everyone is booted out of stealth at start of combat, rogues just get extra turn to 'hide' during combat.

Party of ninjas? Sounds awesome - but won't unbalance the game as you'd still only have a party of rogues for the combat, no fighters/wizards/barbarians/chanters/etc, and it'd only be usable once per encounter/rest / whatever.

 

I'm not totally understanding this based on the explanation. Does this mean that a fighter with 30 endurance will have 60 health? Or more like 120 health?

 

Because if it's not closer to the latter, it seems like it would cause characters to die FASTER.

That's what they're doing - tweaking those numbers to the best ratio of survivability to dieability for different classes.

So a fighter might have 30:150 and a wizard might have 30:80 (or whatever the numbers based on playtests work out best)


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Party stealth is for scouting / sneaking past an enemy - nothing has been 'dumbed down' as it hasn't changed - rogue invisi-like ability is a class-power used in combat (like grimoire slam or wild sprint).   Also needn't be simulationist to make for better gameplay.   Everyone is booted out of stealth at start of combat, rogues just get extra turn to 'hide' during combat.

Party of ninjas? Sounds awesome - but won't unbalance the game as you'd still only have a party of rogues for the combat, no fighters/wizards/barbarians/chanters/etc, and it'd only be usable once per encounter/rest / whatever.

 

You're okay with ninja like abilities? A party of rogues in combat just disappearing into the ether?

 

Sounds awesome. Sees an enemy party at the end of a level in the mega-dungeon blocking my way. Goes into combat. *poof*. disappears. walks right past them to the next level. Might be good for solo play as well. Could see doing this in the beta. Goes to Dyrford crossing with my solo rogue, encounters two beetles. *poof*. walks right past them. Goes to ogre cave and encounters the two spiders outside. *poof*. walks right past them and enters the ogre cave. :thumbsup:

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You're okay with ninja like abilities? A party of rogues in combat just disappearing into the ether?

 

Sounds awesome. Sees an enemy party at the end of a level in the mega-dungeon blocking my way. Goes into combat. *poof*. disappears. walks right past them to the next level. Might be good for solo play as well. Could see doing this in the beta. Goes to Dyrford crossing with my solo rogue, encounters two beetles. *poof*. walks right past them. Goes to ogre cave and encounters the two spiders outside. *poof*. walks right past them and enters the ogre cave. :thumbsup:

AFAIK you can't currently transition areas while in combat mode - you'd need to end combat first, no?

Otherwise, yes, that'd be a cheesy move.  (though avoiding some encounters is fine).


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I've managed to encounter and then outrun a feral druid and all was well. Combat seemed to end. Despite this, you could use this tactic to work yourself through a dungeon and then only need to take on the end boss.

 

Personally, I think if there was an enemy on a map that you made aggro and managed to out run, and then when you're on the other side of the map, the game didn't let you continue would be very poor design.

Edited by Hiro Protagonist II

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There will probably be more updates in the official announcements, but at a much slower rate.

 

BTW I talked to Tim et al. about invisibility as a state and selective scouting.  Invisibility as a state is much easier to do and both Tim and Dave will likely work on it in the near future.  Selective scouting has many more potential issues, so it's less likely to happen in short order.

That's a shame. It was a bit of a staple tactic to sneak the rogue in the back, engage with the rest of the party, then de-stealth the rogue and backstab. That's currently hard to do because the rogue un-stealths with the party as combat begins, which means one of the nasties is likely to get at him.

 

I am not enjoying the current stealth system. It lacks the tension of the original. All you have to do is not make some circles intersect, and you're safe. In the originals, stealth was always a risky proposition: you could be detected and then had to bugger off to safety. That was a lot more fun.

 

Edit: saw your other post describing the goals for the ongoing work. Sounds like you're addressing most of these concerns, so yay. Re-suspending judgment regarding per-character stealth.

Edited by PrimeJunta
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Only tangentially related, but we've already made changes to the Stamina (soon to be Endurance) and Health system that should a) make front-line characters (like fighters) more survivable in the long-term and b) make the system clearer overall.

 

The previous system kept Stamina and Health values pretty much equal.  Behind the scenes, as you took damage, a fraction of what went to Stamina would go to Health.  That fraction was smaller for barbarians with Thick-Skinned, but otherwise it was the same for all classes.

 

We now simply apply damage 1:1 to Stamina (Endurance) and Health, but Health is determined differently for different classes (but always through a multiplier).  Front-line characters are expected to take a lot of abuse and get combat-healed more often, so they have a superior ratio of Endurance to Health.  This will (well, actually it already does in our initial playtests) help prevent front-liners from forcing the party to rest after two fights even when the rest of the group has a lot of per rest abilities and Health left.  The ratios are very easy to tune, but most importantly, it is much, much clearer how everything works.

I like this. One question though: will we be able to affect the health/stamina ratio in any way, e.g. via abilities?

 

For example, I would assume that wizards have less health than fighters. One of the most fun wizards I rolled in the beta was an armored frontline wizard blasting away with those cones and lines. He would need higher health than your traditional glass cannon. Will it be possible for me to take this into account in character creation?

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