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Do you want experience from combat?

Poll: Do You Want Combat Experience Included In The Game?  

377 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you the backer want experience from combat?

    • Yay, how on earth could any game call itself a crpg without combat exp?
      208
    • Nay, questing is king
      169
  2. 2. Would you be happy to wait for combat xp to be implemented in the main game or wait and pledge towards it as an add-on?

    • I'd prefer to have combat XP implemented in the main game although that means the game may be delayed
      109
    • I would far prefer combat XP be added as the first add-on pledge
      6
    • Would you be happy to wait for combat xp to be implemented in the main game or wait and pledge towards it as an add-on?
      1
    • Alternative approach (which the voter will lay out in thread)
      7
    • N/A
      89


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In terms of overall percentage of backers, how would they know how many backers have even played the beta?

By checking how many people downloaded it off Steam?

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I can see the quest-only xp system having a few problems if left as is, but I can also see that there are a couple of solutions to the problems it brings up that would be pretty easy. One solution would be to have some sort of 'full clear' bonus xp for totally exploring areas. Another part of the solution would be to partially randomise item drops from automatically hostile monsters. What I mean by partial randomisation is that the same monster does not always drop the same objects, but if you were to kill all of the hostile monsters on any given play through, you would always get the same total sum of drops. That way, if there is always some hostile monster in the game that will drop the awesome sword of winning +6, but you don't know which one, you've got a good incentive to play all of the encounters. This approach could be further enhanced by balancing the power of the items dropped to some extent by the power of the items dropped. Perhaps there might be 6 dragon encounters in the game, because of the risk associated with the dragon, you could be certain that all of the dragon encounters would involve great loot. You just couldn't be sure which loot you'd get from which dragon. Similarly, if you were fighting beetles at level 5 or something, there'd be a good chance that you wouldn't get anything at all, but there would also be a chance that one of those beetles would drop that long sword +1 that can drop from a hostile monster early in the game. You've got no way of knowing.

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Ahah don't be so angry man, you clearly did what I quoted. Implied that DA2 and PST are on the same tier. Come on xD.

 

I made a valid argument and you cheapened it by changing what I said.

I'm not mad just clarifying that you're trying to make a valid argument seem crazy and irrational.

Edited by Immortalis
  • Like 1

From George Ziets @ http://new.spring.me/#!/user/GZiets/timeline/responses

Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat. While this does put more emphasis on solving quests, the lack of rewards for killing creatures makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game) as much as I can.

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In terms of overall percentage of backers, how would they know how many backers have even played the beta?

By checking how many people downloaded it off Steam?

 

Good point, you glorious wretch!  Okay, so assuming you can see exactly how many people downloaded the demo, see how many people played for a substantial amount of time, see how many people post on the topic here in this forum, and then comparing it to the number of people who even generated the key, do you really believe that the number of people represented here should carry the day?  Dude, how many people have even voted in this poll, let alone posted in this topic?


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Colour me naïve, but, at the end of the day, despite all the harsh words (most of them should be interpreted as overly caring about something truly treasured, tough love), I have this feeling that their most loyal replay gamers still will be found among the posters you see on these forums. After all, there are some hardcore fans to the isometric, party-based CRPG genre here. :)

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*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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Good point, you glorious wretch! Okay, so assuming you can see exactly how many people downloaded the demo, see how many people played for a substantial amount of time, see how many people post on the topic here in this forum, and then comparing it to the number of people who even generated the key, do you really believe that the number of people represented here should carry the day? Dude, how many people have even voted in this poll, let alone posted in this topic?

Sawyer has been known to form his design decisions on a whole lot LESS than this. He has flat out admitted that his reasoning behind PoE's bizarre Inventory design (for example) was based on IE game 'Lets Plays' he's watched on YouTube.

 

There is no science here. And it wouldn't matter if he personally talked to all 73,000 backers and got their opinions on everything. (he's already called us irrational grognards for daring to like BG2's design) He Perceives in a vacuum, and it still must be.

Edited by Stun
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In terms of overall percentage of backers, how would they know how many backers have even played the beta?

By checking how many people downloaded it off Steam?

 

Good point, you glorious wretch!  Okay, so assuming you can see exactly how many people downloaded the demo, see how many people played for a substantial amount of time, see how many people post on the topic here in this forum, and then comparing it to the number of people who even generated the key, do you really believe that the number of people represented here should carry the day?  Dude, how many people have even voted in this poll, let alone posted in this topic?

 

 

This could found out with the generated keys linked to each account. Since this is not public however we will never know.

Edited by Immortalis

From George Ziets @ http://new.spring.me/#!/user/GZiets/timeline/responses

Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat. While this does put more emphasis on solving quests, the lack of rewards for killing creatures makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game) as much as I can.

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I dunno, I just don't think you can take for granted a few hundred die hard fans accurately represent the feelings of the sheer number of backers let alone the number of potential customers who will buy the game on release.  STEAM is great, and I love it, but I think you still find a lot of superfluous data.  ...But I will concede that at least there is data to be had if you can just sift through it.


Fionavar's Holliday Wishes to all members of our online community:  Happy Holidays

 

Join the revelry at the Obsidian Plays channel:
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Remembering tarna, Phosphor, Metadigital, and Visceris.  Drink mead heartily in the halls of Valhalla, my friends!

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I can see the quest-only xp system having a few problems if left as is, but I can also see that there are a couple of solutions to the problems it brings up that would be pretty easy. One solution would be to have some sort of 'full clear' bonus xp for totally exploring areas. Another part of the solution would be to partially randomise item drops from automatically hostile monsters. What I mean by partial randomisation is that the same monster does not always drop the same objects, but if you were to kill all of the hostile monsters on any given play through, you would always get the same total sum of drops. That way, if there is always some hostile monster in the game that will drop the awesome sword of winning +6, but you don't know which one, you've got a good incentive to play all of the encounters. This approach could be further enhanced by balancing the power of the items dropped to some extent by the power of the items dropped. Perhaps there might be 6 dragon encounters in the game, because of the risk associated with the dragon, you could be certain that all of the dragon encounters would involve great loot. You just couldn't be sure which loot you'd get from which dragon. Similarly, if you were fighting beetles at level 5 or something, there'd be a good chance that you wouldn't get anything at all, but there would also be a chance that one of those beetles would drop that long sword +1 that can drop from a hostile monster early in the game. You've got no way of knowing.

IIRC, there should be some XP for exploring and for clearing levels of the megadungeon. As the beta is, too much stuff is buggy to be particularly accurate in assessments and the dark lord Sawyer said that tweaking XP wouldn't be that difficult.

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Good point, you glorious wretch!  Okay, so assuming you can see exactly how many people downloaded the demo, see how many people played for a substantial amount of time, see how many people post on the topic here in this forum, and then comparing it to the number of people who even generated the key, do you really believe that the number of people represented here should carry the day?  Dude, how many people have even voted in this poll, let alone posted in this topic?

That's a bit of a double edged sword to me. No, I don't think ~200 poll results should represent the majority. On the other hand, I feel that people that take the time to register an account and take place in the discussions clearly have a more passionate relationship to the product and perhaps their thoughts would carry a little extra weight. Not necessarily that Obs would rework major systems, but not complete derision to the concerns either.

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In terms of overall percentage of backers, how would they know how many backers have even played the beta?

By checking how many people downloaded it off Steam?

 

Good point, you glorious wretch!  Okay, so assuming you can see exactly how many people downloaded the demo, see how many people played for a substantial amount of time, see how many people post on the topic here in this forum, and then comparing it to the number of people who even generated the key, do you really believe that the number of people represented here should carry the day?  Dude, how many people have even voted in this poll, let alone posted in this topic?

 

 

Game's uploader can see how much people play on average, how much people that have played most have played, what is median number hours that people have played, how many people have played under one hour and etc. statistics. And there is probably some statistics tools of their own in beta that give them information what people do in beta.

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Good point, you glorious wretch!  Okay, so assuming you can see exactly how many people downloaded the demo, see how many people played for a substantial amount of time, see how many people post on the topic here in this forum, and then comparing it to the number of people who even generated the key, do you really believe that the number of people represented here should carry the day?  Dude, how many people have even voted in this poll, let alone posted in this topic?

That's a bit of a double edged sword to me. No, I don't think ~200 poll results should represent the majority. On the other hand, I feel that people that take the time to register an account and take place in the discussions clearly have a more passionate relationship to the product and perhaps their thoughts would carry a little extra weight. Not necessarily that Obs would rework major systems, but not complete derision to the concerns either.

 

 

Agreed and additionally..

 

You have to be pretty conceited to think your forum poll should direct how Josh Sawyer does his job.. But a poll at least shows the mood on your own game's forum.

 

We are one of the only feedback loops Obsidian has until the game actually releases..


From George Ziets @ http://new.spring.me/#!/user/GZiets/timeline/responses

Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat. While this does put more emphasis on solving quests, the lack of rewards for killing creatures makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game) as much as I can.

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There's something fishy here: People in favour of quest xp only rarely pop in here and explain why their version of an xp system for PoE is better or superior. Very few posts expand the quest-only xp arguments. Perhaps they got tired of us, of reading all of our discussions about it, our arguing against it. After all, they are happy as things are, so why rock the boat?

 

This discussion has been done multiple times in past two years in these forums, and I just don't feel to repeat my opinion about it time and time again. Same thing as with romance topics, I told my opinion about it two years ago, but now I just can't be bothered to write it again when new topic pops up, even though developers decided to go against my side of that debate. 

 

And it don't help my apathy to write my opinion in this topics when there seems to be no room for constructive discussion as both sides have their opinions wrote in stone and there is even smallest hint that people would budge from their stance to one way or another. 

 

 

I understand your point. However I have seen a lot of compromises and suggestions show up on these forums by people who are for and against combat xp.  I like combat xp (under the context of it included with quest/exploration/achievements/etc.) and will always like it better.

 

Some of the suggestions include changing how the quest only xp is doled out so it feels more like you are progressing in stages instead of one big chunk. Adding exploration and Rare difficult mob xp and even achievement xp on top of the current quest only.  Making your character progression not simply combat focused. Since it seems every talent and skill you receive through lvling is completely combat focused, to some that seems strange in a game about choosing your own path but being given no real tools to play with. Randomize loot instead of hand placing it so that the replay value of the game is increased especially if each loot table has different items that are valuable to all different characters.

 

Unfortunately a lot of these suggestions have been met with scathing insults (from both sides) causing people to become defensive and then become further intrenched. I will admit myself included among that, it gets tiresome being talked to like a child by people and we begin to take it personal @gromnir it was pretty petty to say what I did so i'm sorry (your posts still require a few read throughs though). So to those of you who tried coming here with real compromises and solutions thank you, even if when you were beaten down you got defensive about it. 

Edited by Zansatsu

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could we gain experience in both quests and combat? :)

 

That is what we combat xp proponents are asking for, even though it looks like it's a battle between the two.

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could we gain experience in both quests and combat? :)

That's what part of the people here ask: a better redistribution of the XP with other activities beyond quesing.
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In fact *some* of the quest xp-only people are deliberately painting this as a binary choice when it isn't.

 

The *vast* majority of 'combat xp' proponents are in fact (as Msxyz points out) 'wider spread of xp reward methods' proponents, amongst which combat is only one.

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In fact *some* of the quest xp-only people are deliberately painting this as a binary choice when it isn't.

 

The *vast* majority of 'combat xp' proponents are in fact (as Msxyz points out) 'wider spread of xp reward methods' proponents, amongst which combat is only one.

sorry mc, but it kinda is binary. a primary value o' quest/task is that it avoids balancing. if you create categories that include kill/combat and quest and whatever, you has invalidated the point o' quest/task. you has necessarily reintroduced balancing.

 

so, get with the program private joker. you may not like quest xp, but don't pretend that the debate is as difficult to grasp or mutable as you pretend.

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68043-do-you-want-experience-from-combat/?p=1496598

 

HA! Good Fun!


"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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In fact *some* of the quest xp-only people are deliberately painting this as a binary choice when it isn't.

 

The *vast* majority of 'combat xp' proponents are in fact (as Msxyz points out) 'wider spread of xp reward methods' proponents, amongst which combat is only one.

sorry mc, but it kinda is binary. a primary value o' quest/task is that it avoids balancing. if you create categories that include kill/combat and quest and whatever, you has invalidated the point o' quest/task. you has necessarily reintroduced balancing.

 

so, get with the program private joker. you may not like quest xp, but don't pretend that the debate is as difficult to grasp or mutable as you pretend.

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68043-do-you-want-experience-from-combat/?p=1496598

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

See? There is no such thing as compromise in their side of the argument. :lol:

 

The minute kill -xp enters the stage no matter how much care or balance it is given to not invalidate or over shadow quests.. It ruins "my single player experience". Can't argue that further down because now it exists in their heads. Logic and mechanics have been put aside.

Edited by Immortalis
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From George Ziets @ http://new.spring.me/#!/user/GZiets/timeline/responses

Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat. While this does put more emphasis on solving quests, the lack of rewards for killing creatures makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game) as much as I can.

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I dislike the idea of farming exp. but I also think that you should gain some exp. from combat. With the Lore talent you can learn something from each encounter that fills in your bestiary. I would like to see your lore talent used to determine if you get exp. from the encounter. Once you learned all the information about a certain creature, you would no longer gain any exp. from killing them.

 

It would work for each individual party member, those with high lore would gain exp. faster and fill out the info faster thus not getting exp. for later encounters but those with lower lore scores could still get the exp. .

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is not a matter o' compromise regarding argument, but a recognition o' definitions. can't have a meaningful debate unless one can agree on basic definitions. duh.

 

HA! Good Fun!


"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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As I've said before if the lack of combat XP is the one thing ruining this game for you then why not make a mod? Ask the developers nicely for a bit of information and use the beta and you should be able to add it if it's not to much of a problem.

 

If you do this I bet you will find that suddenly this "minor" requirement of yours is a whole lot of work to balance and a fair bit of work to properly implement. But then if the majority of the possible players for the game need combat xp to make it fun you should have no problem finding enough people to get it done.

 

But by the looks of this thread most of you would rather rage against JS and obsidian, because a group of professionals designed a game that works differently from what you (not a professional in the field) wanted, rather than doing anything constructive.

 

No matter what way you shape the argument based on the numbers from these polls and the number of people arguing for it in the forums there is no truth in claiming a majority want it. This "poll" is too close to call, some of the others had quest winning and the total number of backers arguing for combat XP is less than 30% of the people that I've seen logged into this forum at one time, a fraction of the total users of the forum and a fraction of a percentage of the total number of backers.

 

In these threads you see all your like minded fellows who are obsessed with the idea of combat XP and you fail to realise there are just as many who don't like it and the vast majority of backers don't give a S****, they want a fun game and who cares about the exact mechanics of that as long as they understand enough of them to enjoy the game...

 

 

Oh and Gromnirs dialect is awesome, easy enough to understand and level of consistency shows absolute mastery of it, something that is far beyond most people. Always amusing/interesting to read his posts, which is a lot more than I can say about a lot of the other posts in these threads :p

Edited by aeonsim

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In fact *some* of the quest xp-only people are deliberately painting this as a binary choice when it isn't.

 

The *vast* majority of 'combat xp' proponents are in fact (as Msxyz points out) 'wider spread of xp reward methods' proponents, amongst which combat is only one.

sorry mc, but it kinda is binary. a primary value o' quest/task is that it avoids balancing. if you create categories that include kill/combat and quest and whatever, you has invalidated the point o' quest/task. you has necessarily reintroduced balancing.

 

so, get with the program private joker. you may not like quest xp, but don't pretend that the debate is as difficult to grasp or mutable as you pretend.

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68043-do-you-want-experience-from-combat/?p=1496598

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

See? There is no such thing as compromise in their side of the argument. :lol:

 

 

 

You do understand that beliefs or systems can be diametrically opposed, right? That compromise between the two can be either impossible or simply victory in disguise for one at the expense of the other? That a call for compromise doesn't automatically give one side the moral high-ground vs. the other?

 

Leave the 'kumbaya diplomacy' at the door.

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Really, what does it say about a community that seems more than happy to vote and deny the other half something that they desperately want which costs nor affects the opposing subscriber-base anything at all.

Strange.

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No matter how many times cats fight, there's always plenty of kittens.

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is not a matter o' compromise regarding argument, but a recognition o' definitions. can't have a meaningful debate unless one can agree on basic definitions. duh.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Again I feel the sting of irony that you are critiquing me on lack of understanding leading to an ineffective debate. I mean seriously dude.. I barely can piece together what your even talking about.. I read every third word and hope I caught the gist of what you meant..

 

Which clearly I didn't.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

 

 

 

 

In fact *some* of the quest xp-only people are deliberately painting this as a binary choice when it isn't.

 

The *vast* majority of 'combat xp' proponents are in fact (as Msxyz points out) 'wider spread of xp reward methods' proponents, amongst which combat is only one.

sorry mc, but it kinda is binary. a primary value o' quest/task is that it avoids balancing. if you create categories that include kill/combat and quest and whatever, you has invalidated the point o' quest/task. you has necessarily reintroduced balancing.

 

so, get with the program private joker. you may not like quest xp, but don't pretend that the debate is as difficult to grasp or mutable as you pretend.

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68043-do-you-want-experience-from-combat/?p=1496598

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

See? There is no such thing as compromise in their side of the argument. :lol:

 

 

 

You do understand that beliefs or systems can be diametrically opposed, right? That compromise between the two can be either impossible or simply victory in disguise for one at the expense of the other? That a call for compromise doesn't automatically give one side the moral high-ground vs. the other?

 

Leave the 'kumbaya diplomacy' at the door.

 

 

Please explain how any of this applies.. Like use the real example of the debate between kill and non-kill xp. Don't speak in generalities. I will expect you to have read the last 3 locked threads of about 1500 posts before you answer otherwise your talking out your ass and don't know what both sides actually want.

 

If your going to claim to be an expert on what has been debated so far, then you should be able to do this no problem.

Edited by Immortalis

From George Ziets @ http://new.spring.me/#!/user/GZiets/timeline/responses

Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat. While this does put more emphasis on solving quests, the lack of rewards for killing creatures makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game) as much as I can.

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