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Pretty disappointed, this launches in December?


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I love how suddenly we're all masters of the profession.

 

THIS IS WHY WE HAVE BETA TESTING. To find these bugs - see how problematic they are, find out what people like, what they think sucks, any tweaks and systems that need to be changed. Yes, pathfinder sucks and the AI is a bit wonky (but it was fine in the old IE games, right lolololz). Plenty of things sucked in W2 and D:OS betas, hell - D:OS is still broken as hell after launch. A beta is an unfinished state of the game, end of. It's not the same as a demo, and there's a lot of people here who don't make that distinction.

 

Whoa whoa why the random dig at Pathfinder yo?

 

 That should be pathfinding XD

You read my post.

 

You have been eaten by a grue.

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im talking about people that have around 50 posts revolving around one specifc thing they disagree with

Obsidian did not create this BB forum to be an outlet for bootlicking fanboi praise gushing.

 

They created this Forum for FEEDBACK. Do not for a minute think that your "/thread!" retorts and tireless attempts to shut dissention up is doing them (or anyone else) any good at all.

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im talking about people that have around 50 posts revolving around one specifc thing they disagree with

Obsidian did not create this BB forum to be an outlet for bootlicking fanboi praise gushing.

 

They created this Forum for FEEDBACK. Do not for a minute think that your "/thread!" retorts and tireless attempts to shut dissention up is doing them (or anyone else) any good at all.

 

Do really think I thought for a second that my "/thread" would stop anyone from posting, my point is that we can be sure that every dev is 100% aware of your positon in this argument. They all know it. Do you really think that pointing it out in every thread in almost every post will change a thing? From my experience its more likley that people just ignore it if someone talks about the same topic over and over and over again.

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They created this Forum for FEEDBACK. Do not for a minute think that your "/thread!" retorts and tireless attempts to shut dissention up is doing them (or anyone else) any good at all.

 

However, some of this feedback seems kind of distracting to the overall discussion about the bugs and problems with the beta; a few very loud developer-wannabes in this and many other threads that try to aggressively push their vision of how the game should be.

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Do really think I thought for a second that my "/thread" would stop anyone from posting, my point is that we can be sure that every dev is 100% aware of your positon in this argument. They all know it. Do you really think that pointing it out in every thread in almost every post will change a thing?

Depends on the issue, of course.

 

But if your response to 'pointless' posting is to just give us an admittedly pointless retort like "/thread!" Or "stop whining!" or "I'm Sawyer's spokesman/mind reader, and I've come to proclaim to you that he's aware of your concerns so stop posting them already!", then you're wasting your time...and you're also not using this board as it was designed to be used.

Edited by Stun
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Bugs, giant, glaring, basic gameplay bugs are everywhere. Subscribe to the Bug forum and you'll see, or better yet, just play the game. I'm old by gamer standards, older than some of the developers, and I've playtested my share of games. I expected more from a game that is only a few months away from release, a lot more.

 

It's impossible to play the game and feel like the backers are THE QA for this game, yet we're not even given a bugtracker, only a forum that buries threads in to oblivion.

 

 

 

The backer access is to a BETA, not a release version of the game. And just as this game was funded by crowd sourced financing, it is also being refined by crowed sourced Q&A/testing. This was never promised as being a final release build - or anything close to it.

 

The developers have released this build to get critical feedback regarding core systems a good 4 months away prior to release and to hammer away at bugs that a small development couldn't possibly root out on it's own. You must remember, even with a budget of 4 million USD, this is very much a shoestring budget for a company like Obsidian and they have AA titles that they are committing vast amount of resources towards. At the end of the day, PoE is just an experiment in crowd funded game development and a small passion project for the folks at Obsidian.

 

If glaring bugs offend you, do not want to play a WIP BETA, skip this phase of PoE's development and wait for the release version. If you wish to keep on testing and refining the BETA, bring your notes and observations to the Bug Tracker forum or point how you might suggest areas of gameplay be improved, as many are doing already on this forum.

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What I really find interesting though is the reactions this thread has gotten over 3 pages and change. I created a very similar thread shortly after the beta was released, and was pretty much raked over the coals for it. I was called the "biggest drama queen on the forum" by one thoughtful poster, and it was insinuated by several others that my intelligence was... lacking.

 

Nope, you're still a big old drama queen. As is the OP in this case.

 

 

Here's from another drama queen then: Between now and December they can fix bugs,.. but I doubt they can patch some fun into the combat experience. It was a tedious, frustrating clickfest and this is from someone who played the hell out of IWD2 and Fallout tactics.

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I'm really not that concerned about the bugs and UI for now, even though I really have a hard time understanding why on earth they would release a beta with so many obvious critical issues instead of delaying it just a week or two, have something somewhat stable, then start their backers beta on more solid ground (with a bloody bug tracker system in place!)

 

What really worries me are the core issues, namely:

  • Health / Stamina mechanic just does not work in a resource based system if Health is removed from said resource system. It's already clear that with the mechanic as it is now, we'll have to spend insane amount of time "resting" because of one character being low on health, while everyone else is 100% fresh and ready. To add insult to injury, the insane bonus to attributes for good rests in inns (which, on top of it, cost so little that it makes you wonder why the hell anyone in this world would sleep anywhere else but in the king's bedroom all the time!) means that you'll be somewhat required to hike all the way back every single time or, if you don't feel the need, that attributes are really completely useless (I mean, these bonus, depending on your base attributes, range from +15% to +90% compared to your base value!)
  • Maps feel way too small, or, as the OP mentioned, the scale is way off somehow. This could be because it's backers beta and these are not finale maps, but something feels just wrong there, especially for outdoor maps. They are also way too packed up, which I think removes any sense of exploration and anticipation. Large areas with empty space create a sense of exploration, gives scouting a sense of purpose and offers the players choices in how to approach situations. From everything I've seen in streams and videos, you don't have any of that in any of the maps offered in the beta backers so far. It's just walk 5 steps: monsters everywhere blocking your path, walk 5 steps, monsters everywhere blocking your path, etc.
  • Ruleset makes any player decision in character pointless and any action taken in combat not a result of character design or tactic, but a result of chance. This is true of course for a d20 system but to a much lesser degree and instead of choosing to flatten the curve (as in, use a 3d6 system and the like, making standard actions more predictable, and extremes very rare), they instead decided to go balls to the wall and use a d100 system. This means nothing you do for characters (items you choose, stats distribution, etc) will have any tangible effect on anything and that in the end, what matters is: Are you lucky on them d100 rolls, or not. This is painful obvious when you read logs of creatures with deadly effects. With the exact same characters, one go through and it'll be complete butter and be over in seconds and another you'll get completely destroyed in seconds simply because they had good rolls. This is common (and less of a problem) with non resource based attacks (melee/ranged stuff) but it's completely CRAZY to leave so much to chance on resource based abilities like spells.
  • And in total contradiction with the above, the skill check mechanics makes no sense whatsoever and is in total conflict with the intent they advertised. Requiring specific level in a given skill (or attribute) for a given task will force people to heavily specialized, beyond reason, into skills AND attributes, or risk getting penalized and missing content. The fact that there are no actual checks whatsoever (which means it's a purely binary system, in TOTAL conflict with the roll heavy combat system where everything is left to chance) is the exact opposite of what you'd want to do if you wanted to avoid single spec builds. I mean, who in their right mind would split up skill points when you KNOW there will be "this requires level 7 in mechanics or you just never can even try it" or "this action requires 16 constitution or you flat out fail it" and "this requires 14 perception or you will never be able to say it" all over the place. It's implied at it's core that you will NEED a team of with one maxed out Stealth guy, one maxed out Athletic guy, one maxed out Mechanics guy (etc) and that any other choice will mean you fail automatically all the frikkin time on anything challenging. This is completely mind-boggling in a normal situation, but when you spend your days blurting about "no bad builds", this is downright crazy.

 

There are more sadly, like "group only stealth", the entire "stash inventory" concept, "combat mode" lockouts, no actual bug tracker system (which is just completely crazy) and others.

 

These are NOT things to be fixed in a somewhat open beta, 4 months from release. It's less than that actually since games usually go in lock down mode, 100% bug squashing/optimization, about a month before actual release. These are not things you "ask feedback" about, these are things you're supposed to have ironed out two years ago if not more.

 

So yea, that has me more worried than the little things. :)

Edited by mutonizer
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mutonizer: Those are some very good points, right there! And a few of your criticisms are new to me, whilst very central and glaring, so thanks for the write-up. I really do hope that Obsidian reads these forums, despite some pretty long and over-heated threads. Great stuff! :thumbsup:

*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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I'll do a write up later, but been playing quite a bit the past couple of nights and I must admit the game is growing on me massively. The combat is becoming more similar to what I remember IE being 'like'. Still far too many bugs - which is an issue with creating this 'demo' rip of the full game.

 

But, definitely starting to feel more and more like I was hoping. Just need a few more days to check it out - luckily the weekend is here!

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^ I agree with the above two posts (mutonizer and Lioness). This is the first rpg advertised with tactical combat where I want to avoid the combat. And if I have to engage in combat, I'll use every exploit so I don't lose too much health. I've never rest spammed at the inn so much in a crpg. Even the IE games, I never rest spammed so much. I could just cast cure light wounds or something similar and continue. With PoE, if one or two of my party is around 50% health, I just go back to the inn and get 100% health. It hasn't stopped the degenerate game play of rest spamming, save scumming, etc. In fact, it encourages me to do it more.

 

The issues aren't the bugs for me, it's the game design. And it isn't much fun trudging through dungeons for the last hour getting scrap loot to sell for coin. Just give me the coins and be done with it. Or give me a sell button in my inventory instead of going back and selling the stuff in the town. Also, just give infinite amount of money to the merchants instead of 3000 or 5000 coins. It resets when you leave and enter the town anyway.

 

PoE also encourages me to min-max skills so I have one person with max Athletics, one person with max Lore, etc so I can get all the dialogue and quest options. Because a task asks which character do I want to use for a task. Easy, use the character with the max attribute that can complete the task. It just isn't fun for me in it's current design and Obsidian are in bug fixing mode, not overhauling the system which is a shame.

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PoE also encourages me to min-max skills so I have one person with max Athletics, one person with max Lore, etc so I can get all the dialogue and quest options. Because a task asks which character do I want to use for a task. Easy, use the character with the max attribute that can complete the task. It just isn't fun for me in it's current design and Obsidian are in bug fixing mode, not overhauling the system which is a shame.

And this last bit actually means one ominous thing more: The depletion of any real incitements for replaying the game, which to me borders on sacrilege - since that is the number one thing I want from a game like PoE (at least what I thought it would be).

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*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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The health-stamina system always seemed needless to me since they first mentioned it and what I'm hearing from beta has only made my opinion of it worse.

 

Sadly, from what I've seen so far, it'll be the defining factor for everything you do throughout the game and will dictate your ENTIRE pace from A to B all the way to Z. 

 

To me this is really huge, especially when the rest of the combat mechanics are based on a resource management system (with per day, per encounter, etc). Combined with the "rolls are what matter, not your character" system, this literally mean that you could potentially go to an inn, rest for 8 hours, then leave the inn, travel back to where you wanted to go, get ambushed by random low level mobs, have a couple of them roll critical hits and completely ****ing up your entire 'adventuring day" right there, before you even did anything!

Then you'd need to go BACK to the inn, rest again for 8 HOURS (since there is no options there, it's 8 hours, period), just because your fighter with 90 DEF kept getting hit by 10ACC mobs or your rogue got aggro from some punk heavy crossbow user and got one shotted due to a lucky crit, and there is nothing you can do about it even though EVERYONE else is full on resources and ready to go.

 

That anyone, at this supposed level of game design and "understanding of what these RPGs are all about", allows such a crazy game mechanic to go unchecked for so long, is just really, really...hmm..worrying (to stay polite).

Edited by mutonizer
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PoE also encourages me to min-max skills so I have one person with max Athletics, one person with max Lore, etc so I can get all the dialogue and quest options. Because a task asks which character do I want to use for a task. Easy, use the character with the max attribute that can complete the task. It just isn't fun for me in it's current design and Obsidian are in bug fixing mode, not overhauling the system which is a shame.

And this last bit actually means one ominous thing more: The depletion of any real incitements for replaying the game, which to me borders on sacrilege - since that is the number one thing I want from a game like PoE (at least what I thought it would be).

 

 

 

This was already evident that it was the intent from the class system. A class is a game mechanic, period. Unlike IE engine games (because of D&D really), once you've tried it once, it'll pretty much always be the same after that.

 

That said, I'm sure there will be some reason to replay the game because of the small background/class variations in the story but one thing's for sure, you'll never replay it because you want to try a different fighter style or wizard style or ranger style. There are no styles from what I could see so far: A fighter is a fighter is a fighter is a fighter. And since everyone can use any weapon and armor anytime for any reason with the same exact effects, you probably will want to avoid having two characters of the same class in your party, even though they're pretty cool, since they'll be EXACTLY the same (with just small variations based on attributes or talents, which doesn't matter much anyway in a d100 system)

Edited by mutonizer
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Sarex: Go get them bugs now, will you!

 

I am pondering if I should wait for the first patch to come out before I give it a go. First impressions and all that.

 

 

-ONLY load from the start screen

 

-dont stack items ever

 

-dont save to often

 

and you should be fine

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Sarex: Go get them bugs now, will you!

 

I am pondering if I should wait for the first patch to come out before I give it a go. First impressions and all that.

 

 

 

Haven't tried the beta either but that's probably a good idea, though, to be honest, in your shoes with a new key, at least having a quick peek would hard to resist. I mean, videos and streams can only do so much. At some point, you gotta get your hands dirty.

Edited by mutonizer
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The developers have released this build to get critical feedback regarding core systems a good 4 months away prior to release and to hammer away at bugs that a small development couldn't possibly root out on it's own.

I am absolutely looking forward to giving some critical feedback on the core systems once the bugs with the core systems are fixed!

 

:p

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