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Pretty disappointed, this launches in December?


khermann

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Yeah. It almost looked like it was a deliberate strategy for showing it at that time. Any possible dog-piling didn't even get the chance to happen. In a few cases, you saw monsters with big hitboxes overlap party members, though. Rose played like a turn-based game, almost. I reckon the characters in the party were slightly clearer against the background. However, the deer still looked like a ghost deer, for instance.

The shading did seem a lot strong this time.  Again, could just be artificial contrast from the stream/laptop she was playing on but stuff did look good.  There were many nice visual touch ups.

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Also, did you catch the comment made about death in the video? Apparently OE has "softened" the impact of death to the point that when you die, you get up immediately after combat with some sort of impediment.

 

OE was pretty vocal about the importance of death in this game. Now it sounds like they've removed it? Or maybe the guy talking just doesn't know what he's talking about?

"Now to find a home for my other staff."
My Project Eternity Interview with Adam Brennecke

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Also, did you catch the comment made about death in the video? Apparently OE has "softened" the impact of death to the point that when you die, you get up immediately after combat with some sort of impediment.

 

OE was pretty vocal about the importance of death in this game. Now it sounds like they've removed it? Or maybe the guy talking just doesn't know what he's talking about?

 

It comes with difficulty, or on expert mode, can't remember.

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Also, did you catch the comment made about death in the video? Apparently OE has "softened" the impact of death to the point that when you die, you get up immediately after combat with some sort of impediment.

 

OE was pretty vocal about the importance of death in this game. Now it sounds like they've removed it? Or maybe the guy talking just doesn't know what he's talking about?

 

It comes with difficulty, or on expert mode, can't remember.

 

That's not what the developer said. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm simply not sure.

"Now to find a home for my other staff."
My Project Eternity Interview with Adam Brennecke

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Permadeath is turned on on both expert mode and Trial of Iron (aka Ironman) mode. There is, however, an option in the menus to turn it on without enabling either of those modes. This has always been the plan.

 

EDIT: If you're playing without permadeath characters will get up with a wound in more or less the same manner as Dragon Age. Wounds are much more debilitating than they are in DA though.

Edited by MasterPrudent
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I think personally I am damaging my own overall enjoyment and enthusiasm for the game by doing the beta testing, but I do want the game to be better overall, so it's a bit self-sacrificial.

 

That is why I am not touching it until it's halfway decent.

 

Exactly what i am doing as well. All i want is great combat and a good story.

Edited by Ward
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You also know that once combat is engaged in any way shape or form, you can NEVER, ESCAPE. You cannot lose them, you cannot hide, you cannot zone out: You WILL need to kill whatever aggroed you, even if it's a frikkin dragon that you KNOW will instantly wipe the floor with you.

Which is, frankly, just sad.

 

And let's not reduce the issue to mechanics only. The inability to run away is against the spirit of the genre. Why can't I RP a coward? Or at least a reasonable guy who knows when he's in over his head? In IE games I could zone out (effectively fleeing from combat) and return later when I felt like it. And not only in IE games. To be honest I can't recall any decent freeroam RPG where fleeing combat wasn't possible.

Edited by prodigydancer
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Permadeath is turned on on both expert mode and Trial of Iron (aka Ironman) mode. There is, however, an option in the menus to turn it on without enabling either of those modes. This has always been the plan.

 

EDIT: If you're playing without permadeath characters will get up with a wound in more or less the same manner as Dragon Age. Wounds are much more debilitating than they are in DA though.

 

You can also die with permadeath turned off, as first time character's health goes zero they get maimed status and if health goes zero again when character has maimed status character dies permanently.

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Ultimately I'm not worried. Regardless of how things go down, someone will release a mod for the game that will fix bugs and/or change/improve gameplay systems I don't necessarily like. 

 

Not everyone is going to get exactly what they want, but once ya'll start modding this game people will be able to play however they want. 

 

Long live PC gamers, and those that release free mods for them!

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Regardless of how things go down, someone will release a mod for the game that will fix bugs and/or change/improve gameplay systems I don't necessarily like. 

I wouldn't count on that.

 

Well, I'm not banking on it. I feel confident when the full game is released I will be more than satisfied with the results, but I think enough people are invested enough in this game that if something is lacking it will be relatively easy to fix and someone will be passionate enough to do so. I seriously doubt OE is going to release an incomplete game.

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Regardless of how things go down, someone will release a mod for the game that will fix bugs and/or change/improve gameplay systems I don't necessarily like. 

I wouldn't count on that.

 

Well, I'm not banking on it. I feel confident when the full game is released I will be more than satisfied with the results, but I think enough people are invested enough in this game that if something is lacking it will be relatively easy to fix and someone will be passionate enough to do so. I seriously doubt OE is going to release an incomplete game.

 

the only worry/concern for us is that obsidian already has an expansion for PoE in the works and as such, some know problems or concerns may be considered expansion fodder for the developers. 'stead o' going the extra mile to stabilize and optimize PoE, the plan may be to simply get PoE out before DA:I, then fix PoE known concerns with a paid-for mega-patch/expansion... but that is extreme cynical. am still hopeful that PoE will meet and/or exceed our reasonable expectations for a kisckstarter funded ie throwback game.

 

HA! Good Fun!

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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the only worry/concern for us is that obsidian already has an expansion for PoE in the works and as such, some know problems or concerns may be considered expansion fodder for the developers.

IF there is an expansion, that is.

 

...If you catch my drift.

Pillars of Eternity Josh Sawyer's Quest: The Quest for Quests - an isometric fantasy stealth RPG with optional combat and no pesky XP rewards for combat, skill usage or exploration.


PoE is supposed to be a spiritual successor to Baldur's GateJosh Sawyer doesn't like the Baldur's Gate series (more) - PoE is supposed to reward us for our achievements


~~~~~~~~~~~


"Josh Sawyer created an RPG where always avoiding combat and never picking locks makes you a powerful warrior and a master lockpicker." -Helm, very critcal and super awesome RPG fan


"I like XP for things other than just objectives. When there is no rewards for combat or other activities, I think it lessens the reward for being successful at them." -Feargus Urquhart, OE CEO


"Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat [...] the lack of rewards for killing creatures [in PoE] makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game)" -George Ziets, Game Dev.

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the only worry/concern for us is that obsidian already has an expansion for PoE in the works and as such, some know problems or concerns may be considered expansion fodder for the developers.

IF there is an expansion, that is.

 

...If you catch my drift.

 

I dunno, that's super cryptic Helm, but I think you're suggesting that there might not be an expansion because of poor sales. I think it's a reasonable assumption that there will be an expansion, if only because most of the artists who worked on Pillars have started pre-production work on the expansion. Which is not to say that it couldn't be cancelled but that seems pretty unlikely.

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Another thing to note: They probably won't fix a lot of content bugs in the beta adventure. To do so is a waste of their time really... If they really put this little adventure together just for beta, then it will never see the light of day in the finished project. We're talking about stuff like typo's and missing dialogue, or unclear or unresolved story lines. So, if you see a <missing dialogue> or something like that, don't sweat it... They likely don't put a lot of attention to detail here; at least that's what I'd expect, because I wouldn't either.

 

Have you ever looked at a concept car up close at an auto show? Most of them are missing all sorts of stuff you'd need to drive them legally on the street, if produced in a factory. Like: "objects in mirror may be closer than they appear", VIN numbers and D.O.T certification on the headlamps. Same thing applies here, so I'd say... look for functional problems, instead of a "they're" that should be a "their."

Edited by Luridis

Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt. - Julius Caesar

 

:facepalm: #define TRUE (!FALSE)

I ran across an article where the above statement was found in a release tarball. LOL! Who does something like this? Predictably, this oddity was found when the article's author tried to build said tarball and the compiler promptly went into cardiac arrest. If you're not a developer, imagine telling someone the literal meaning of up is "not down". Such nonsense makes computers, and developers... angry.

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Yeah. It almost looked like it was a deliberate strategy for showing it at that time. Any possible dog-piling didn't even get the chance to happen. In a few cases, you saw monsters with big hitboxes overlap party members, though. Rose played like a turn-based game, almost. I reckon the characters in the party were slightly clearer against the background. However, the deer still looked like a ghost deer, for instance.

 

This is a bad thing.

 

It's a real time game and shouldn't look like turn based. This is the "I played too much Icewind Dale 2 and am used to really idle looking combat" coming through.

 

Icewind Dale 2 had idle looking characters and not many actions per round across the board for most characters.

 

Baldur's Gate, Baldur's Gate 2 and Icewind Dale all felt better in this regard because at least on dual-classed and Warrior-based characters, also characters with certain weapons or items - the combat flowed a lot smoother due to the higher attacks per round. The combat animations for the BG games were also way better.

 

Granted compared to PE v257 bb - it does look better BUT compared to the majority of the IE games combat still does not look good.

Edited by Sensuki
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Yeah. It almost looked like it was a deliberate strategy for showing it at that time. Any possible dog-piling didn't even get the chance to happen. In a few cases, you saw monsters with big hitboxes overlap party members, though. Rose played like a turn-based game, almost. I reckon the characters in the party were slightly clearer against the background. However, the deer still looked like a ghost deer, for instance.

 

This is a bad thing.

 

It's a real time game and shouldn't look like turn based. This is the "I played too much Icewind Dale 2 and am used to really idle looking combat" coming through.

 

Icewind Dale 2 had idle looking characters and not many actions per round across the board for most characters.

 

Baldur's Gate, Baldur's Gate 2 and Icewind Dale all felt better in this regard because at least on dual-classed and Warrior-based characters, also characters with certain weapons or items - the combat flowed a lot smoother due to the higher attacks per round. The combat animations for the BG games were also way better.

 

Granted compared to PE v257 bb - it does look better BUT compared to the majority of the IE games combat still does not look good.

 

What ? IWD2 was the newest game of all you mentioned, and it had enhanced spell animations etc... Althought it was the most hack&slashy of all ie games, I really enjoyed every fight in that game. People backed PoE cause they want to see combat feel that way again, not some "fast and exciting" crap....

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You are completely missing the point.

 

Black Isle cut the "fake" weapon attacks from Icewind Dale 1 resulting in _COMPLETELY_ Idle characters while not performing actions in combat. This wasn't too bad looking however due to the way AD&D 2E works where certain classes with certain weapons could get multiple attacks per round. So you'd have a string of actions during the 6 second round period that characters would perform and a not too long completely idle looking animation.

 

Icewind Dale 2 moved to 3rd edition rules and by nature the amount of actions that classes perform are determined by class advancement altered by certain feats. For most of Icewind Dale 2 characters walk around making one or two actions in the six round period. They did alter the idle animation though so that characters at least had a combat idle, but it was still very idle looking compared to the stances and idle looping animation in between attacks in the Baldur's Gate games.

 

You may have enjoyed the combat in the IWD games but that may have more to do with the encounters themselves. Encounters flowed much better in AD&D 2E games in my opinion.

 

Pillars of Eternity currently looks similarish to Icewind Dale 2, but recovery time length can get pretty crazy if you're performing a long action wearing armor. The BB Wizard in plate sits there doing nothing for ages after he casts a spell with a bit of a cast time. The Fighter's battle axe attack animation is quite quick, but then he also sits there doing absolutely nothing for quite a long time before he makes a second attack in his default gear.

 

The combat just flows poorly. I have some ideas on how to fix it, but I'm going to wait a bit until I run some mathematics and do some testing before I post anything.

Edited by Sensuki
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Ok, I get your point, but that was the case in all ie games. Combat felt like turn based. IWD2 seemed idle, but that was the spirit of all ie games, maybe exposed too much in AD&D 3. You can't change that in PoE and expect it to feel like BG or IWD games. And those idle'ish battles made ie games what they were and what people loved.

It was more like, your warrior making an attack, while player was waiting with thrill for the succes of the next one. Currently in PoE you can't really tell when your character lands an attack, because everything is blurry and happening so fast, that noone can notice every attack your party makes. And in ie games it was the opposite. You could precisely see when your mage threw a shot with his slingshot, which created joy for every succesful attack your party made. That is not the case in PoE, and will not be if combat will be so fast, that you can't tell half of the actions that are happening. 

I agree that in the current state of poe beta combat is completely broken and you can't tell for sure how it will gonna look like when fixed, but for now It seems like it won't have that ie games feeling to it.

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You're actually getting a bit confused atm. 

PE Combat is confusing because:

  • Selecting a character doesn't bring up their action bar sometimes
  • Targeting an ability sometimes doesn't work
  • Targeting an ability sometimes doubles as a move action that cancels your targeted action
  • Targeting sometimes does not work
  • There are huge combat HUDs everywhere
  • Characters blend into the background environment
  • The animations are very short and pissy - limited by their 20 and 30 frame parameters, with not so great animations to boot
  • Characters look very idle in combat
  • Movement pauses recovery time
  • The amount of stuff going on, and the amount of extra micromanagement required by the bugs PLUS the activeness of the classes in general means that there's more things to pay attention to causing you to miss some actions of units in combat
  • Combat is lethal, making you think it's faster
  • Lack of combat feedback - targeting reticles and such

It's got nothing to do with the speed of actions being too quick, it's everything else.

 

The Stream from PAX Prime showed Beta v271 which looks a lot more like Icewind Dale 2 - which is a step up from PE v257 but still not as good as the other IE games in terms of combat pace/flow/feel.

Edited by Sensuki
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The Stream from PAX Prime showed Beta v271 which looks a lot more like Icewind Dale 2 - which is a step up from PE v257 but still not as good as the other IE games in terms of combat pace/flow/feel.

Pardon me?

Lvl 5-7 combat in Baldurs gate 1 / 2:

Fighters: Miss Miss CRIT DEATH ONE HIT KILL miss miss.

Mage: Casting cloud spell X and abusing the ai OR casting overpowered melf´s minor meteorids OR casting elemental damage spells and hoping for the next resting opportunity.

Rogue: Trying 5x to get into stealth mode, missing one of three sneak attacks OR doing lethal ONE HIT KILLS and then micro manage the hell out of them OR shortbow for minor damage.

WoW. So much fluff and flow.

 

Take off the nostalgia goggles please!

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