Jump to content

Welcome to Obsidian Forum Community
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

The experience system

experience combat leveling quests

  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
100 replies to this topic

#21
Helm

Helm

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 714 posts

The sad thing is that due to his misguided quest to remove any source of degenerate gameplay from Pillars of Eternity, he's simply introduced it in another form.

There was no degenerative gameplay before he tried to fix what isn't broken, if you ask me.

Sawyerisms = degenerative gameplay
  • Giubba and Sartoris like this

#22
Sartoris

Sartoris

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 36 posts

 

 

Sartoris and Immortalis are right about the problems with No XP.

 

Josh is also right about certain circumstances with where an "all creatures/enemies give you XP when you kill them" system leads to unwanted gameplay.

 

 

Why does it have to be one or the other? (I don't think you fairly represented the yellow corner, Mr. Mod!)

  • In quest chains, the worry is that if you are asked to side with NPC 'A' or NPC 'B,' siding none and killing all will always be the outcome that nets most profit via XP and loot. While this was true in IE games, this can be balanced by giving no XP is one or the other is killed first, or equal rewards for killing neither or only one, or alternating based on the situation, etc. I hope no one sees this as a problem.
  • Trash mobs in IE games gave a negligible amount of XP anyway. So what, 15xp from each Xvart split six ways, whoop-dee-doo! No big loss. But large, powerful creatures, or perhaps enemies above your level or that give some degree of challenge should give you a reward. Do you really want to only be killing things so you can collect the crap they drop and sell it?? It will very rarely be of use to your characters if every encounter works this way.
  • Why not give give varying XP, including none, based on the type of encounter? The only reason against doing this that I can think of is that it would require a lot of balancing and effort from devs. Don't get me wrong, this is a valid reason if true, but one that only a dev can comment on.

So... what's wrong with a little of column A and a little of column B? Can't we do a bit of both, specifically to address the problems of either extreme?

 

If you go back and read the 1500 posts on this topic that are all in the threads that got locked.. I mentioned like 5 ways to get around this abuse.. one of them is close to what your saying.

 

 

Yeah, I'm not surprised. I've heard a lot from people who want Kill XP and next to nothing from people who don't. Do these people actually exist? :p

In the end, as Polanski said, the devs likely are already well enough aware of the pros and cons, I suppose all that's left is to show them our preference while there's still (possibly) a window of opportunity for such a big change to gameplay.

 

Actually, I'm not sure that they could even make such a big change at this point without delaying the game...

 

 

I've waited 14 years for an actual well done successor to BGII. I'm willing to wait longer if we can make Pillars of Eternity that game.


  • fortuntek, skylander and Zansatsu like this

#23
Nomadmerc

Nomadmerc

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 39 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer

What Sartoris said above is of great concern to me. The game needs more options for experience or this--avoid mob group a--yet fight mob group b scenario will be the norm. 


  • Immortalis, Zansatsu and Sartoris like this

#24
fortuntek

fortuntek

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 350 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer

 

The sad thing is that due to his misguided quest to remove any source of degenerate gameplay from Pillars of Eternity, he's simply introduced it in another form.

There was no degenerative gameplay before he tried to fix what isn't broken, if you ask me.

Sawyerisms = degenerative gameplay

 

 

I actually have a lot of faith in Josh Sawyer, everything from his job experience, passion, articulate and intellectual discourse about game theory as well as other subjects, not to mention complete access to playtester data and other resources unavailable to fans, all of this shouts "person who knows way more about this stuff than me!" And although I have big concerns based on how VERY $%@#ing much I want this game to give me a taste of the enjoyment that BG2 and other IE games did (and still do), part of me also recognizes the need to punch down my ego and my trust in the professionals here. That said, if the current system is indeed a major problem, then it will be fixed. And if it cannot be fixed then there is nothing else that can be done anyway, so we'd better simply do our best to enjoy PE for what it is: a fantastic opportunity for an IE style game, practically tailor-made for the likes of us griping fans.


Edited by fortuntek, 27 August 2014 - 02:43 PM.

  • Zansatsu and Orphansmith like this

#25
Helm

Helm

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 714 posts

 

Sartoris and Immortalis are right about the problems with No XP.

 

Josh is also right about certain circumstances with where an "all creatures/enemies give you XP when you kill them" system leads to unwanted gameplay.

 

 

Why does it have to be one or the other? (I don't think you fairly represented the yellow corner, Mr. Mod!)

  • In quest chains, the worry is that if you are asked to side with NPC 'A' or NPC 'B,' siding none and killing all will always be the outcome that nets most profit via XP and loot. While this was true in IE games, this can be balanced by giving no XP is one or the other is killed first, or equal rewards for killing neither or only one, or alternating based on the situation, etc. I hope no one sees this as a problem.
  • Trash mobs in IE games gave a negligible amount of XP anyway. So what, 15xp from each Xvart split six ways, whoop-dee-doo! No big loss. But large, powerful creatures, or perhaps enemies above your level or that give some degree of challenge should give you a reward. Do you really want to only be killing things so you can collect the crap they drop and sell it?? It will very rarely be of use to your characters if every encounter works this way.
  • Why not give give varying XP, including none, based on the type of encounter? The only reason against doing this that I can think of is that it would require a lot of balancing and effort from devs. Don't get me wrong, this is a valid reason if true, but one that only a dev can comment on.

So... what's wrong with a little of column A and a little of column B? Can't we do a bit of both, specifically to address the problems of either extreme?

 

If you go back and read the 1500 posts on this topic that are all in the threads that got locked.. I mentioned like 5 ways to get around this abuse.. one of them is close to what your saying.

 

This controversy has been going on for almost two years, and we have been making suggestions like this the entire time too. Sawyer won't budge and has full support of the OE bosses.



#26
Immortalis

Immortalis

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 301 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer

 

 

Sartoris and Immortalis are right about the problems with No XP.

 

Josh is also right about certain circumstances with where an "all creatures/enemies give you XP when you kill them" system leads to unwanted gameplay.

 

 

Why does it have to be one or the other? (I don't think you fairly represented the yellow corner, Mr. Mod!)

  • In quest chains, the worry is that if you are asked to side with NPC 'A' or NPC 'B,' siding none and killing all will always be the outcome that nets most profit via XP and loot. While this was true in IE games, this can be balanced by giving no XP is one or the other is killed first, or equal rewards for killing neither or only one, or alternating based on the situation, etc. I hope no one sees this as a problem.
  • Trash mobs in IE games gave a negligible amount of XP anyway. So what, 15xp from each Xvart split six ways, whoop-dee-doo! No big loss. But large, powerful creatures, or perhaps enemies above your level or that give some degree of challenge should give you a reward. Do you really want to only be killing things so you can collect the crap they drop and sell it?? It will very rarely be of use to your characters if every encounter works this way.
  • Why not give give varying XP, including none, based on the type of encounter? The only reason against doing this that I can think of is that it would require a lot of balancing and effort from devs. Don't get me wrong, this is a valid reason if true, but one that only a dev can comment on.

So... what's wrong with a little of column A and a little of column B? Can't we do a bit of both, specifically to address the problems of either extreme?

 

If you go back and read the 1500 posts on this topic that are all in the threads that got locked.. I mentioned like 5 ways to get around this abuse.. one of them is close to what your saying.

 

 

Yeah, I'm not surprised. I've heard a lot from people who want Kill XP and next to nothing from people who don't. Do these people actually exist? :p

In the end, as Polanski said, the devs likely are already well enough aware of the pros and cons, I suppose all that's left is to show them our preference while there's still (possibly) a window of opportunity for such a big change to gameplay.

 

Actually, I'm not sure that they could even make such a big change at this point without delaying the game...

 

 

There's a sawyer post flying around that said XP could be changed relatively late in the development cycle if it needed to be.. The balancing though.. that's a bigger problem methinks.


  • Sartoris likes this

#27
Polanski

Polanski

    (2) Evoker

  • Members
  • 69 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer

 

 

Sartoris and Immortalis are right about the problems with No XP.

 

Josh is also right about certain circumstances with where an "all creatures/enemies give you XP when you kill them" system leads to unwanted gameplay.

 

 

Why does it have to be one or the other? (I don't think you fairly represented the yellow corner, Mr. Mod!)

  • In quest chains, the worry is that if you are asked to side with NPC 'A' or NPC 'B,' siding none and killing all will always be the outcome that nets most profit via XP and loot. While this was true in IE games, this can be balanced by giving no XP is one or the other is killed first, or equal rewards for killing neither or only one, or alternating based on the situation, etc. I hope no one sees this as a problem.
  • Trash mobs in IE games gave a negligible amount of XP anyway. So what, 15xp from each Xvart split six ways, whoop-dee-doo! No big loss. But large, powerful creatures, or perhaps enemies above your level or that give some degree of challenge should give you a reward. Do you really want to only be killing things so you can collect the crap they drop and sell it?? It will very rarely be of use to your characters if every encounter works this way.
  • Why not give give varying XP, including none, based on the type of encounter? The only reason against doing this that I can think of is that it would require a lot of balancing and effort from devs. Don't get me wrong, this is a valid reason if true, but one that only a dev can comment on.

So... what's wrong with a little of column A and a little of column B? Can't we do a bit of both, specifically to address the problems of either extreme?

 

If you go back and read the 1500 posts on this topic that are all in the threads that got locked.. I mentioned like 5 ways to get around this abuse.. one of them is close to what your saying.

 

 

Yeah, I'm not surprised. I've heard a lot from people who want Kill XP and next to nothing from people who don't. Do these people actually exist? :p

In the end, as Polanski said, the devs likely are already well enough aware of the pros and cons, I suppose all that's left is to show them our preference while there's still (possibly) a window of opportunity for such a big change to gameplay.

 

Actually, I'm not sure that they could even make such a big change at this point without delaying the game...

 

I definitely think they could be able to make such a change within a reasonable timeframe. Surely within the time limits of the beta period.

The thing with this is that it just ends up being a very fundamental discussion, where it is easy to see and understand each side of the discussion, but alot harder to understand the actual mechanical and gameplay differences there would be to not-having-combat-xp, as none of us have actually played an entire IE game without it.

For me there is as well a very philosophical aspect to it, as it is very hard to make up the self-evolving aspect of actually taking a life, and doing so on a regular basis. It makes a lot of sense if something like that would be avoided and not just end up with a 'ding' as you put your sword through the mother-dragon. That same kind of argumentation could still be used on quest-xp of course.

XP in general is just an abstract concept and the choice is dependant on what is the most fun, and makes for the best and least degenerate gameplay. Without the combat xp the alternative gameplay routes has to be similarly as fullfilling and fun. 

 

My point being that I think Josh & co. knows of all these options and the feelings of the Beta backers right now. They are probably discussing them, and they will come up with the right choice, or test something else in the next beta version. So people should maybe focus on feedback on talents and the classes and other important things (BUGS!). 


  • fortuntek likes this

#28
Monte Carlo

Monte Carlo

    Vorpal Panzerfaust of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 6720 posts
  • Location:England, This Blessed Plot
  • Xbox Gamertag:MonteCarlo
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

You know what bugs me most?

 

Josh is unlikely to come into this thread and engage with backers who are concerned about this aspect of PoE.

 

http://www.oxforddic.../english/hubris


  • Giubba, Helm, Namutree and 1 other like this

#29
fortuntek

fortuntek

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 350 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer

I wouldn't either. The fans here fall on the side of passionate that is way past polite discussion. Sawyer shouldn't come anywhere near this thread to "engage" the backers that have forum signatures riddled with criticisms against the choices he's made and naming him personally. I know this is the internet and all and a tame part of it at that, but I mean come on, surely any one of the people here would find such a personal tone of aggressive criticism offensive if applied to your own workplaces. And even if you have an unnaturally thick skin, this type of debate is unlikely to go in a productive direction; the talk has been had, the decision made, and nothing we say here is likely to be even remotely new, it's simply a rehashing of arguments or statement of preferences, therefore an utter waste of his time. 

 

But I still am inclined to disagree with No XP. I'm just open to being proven wrong, or informed once a change is made.


  • Zansatsu, Orphansmith and Polanski like this

#30
Immortalis

Immortalis

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 301 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer

I wouldn't either. The fans here fall on the side of passionate that is way past polite discussion. Sawyer shouldn't come anywhere near this thread to "engage" the backers that have forum signatures riddled with criticisms against the choices he's made and naming him personally. I know this is the internet and all and a tame part of it at that, but I mean come on, surely any one of the people here would find such a personal tone of aggressive criticism offensive if applied to your own workplaces. And even if you have an unnaturally thick skin, this type of debate is unlikely to go in a productive direction; the talk has been had, the decision made, and nothing we say here is likely to be even remotely new, it's simply a rehashing of arguments or statement of preferences, therefore an utter waste of his time. 

 

But I still am inclined to disagree with No XP. I'm just open to being proven wrong, or informed once a change is made.

 

Wowow.. You do know that sawyer can dish it out with the best of us right? Have you actually read some of the stuff he's said? I would never talk about him the same way I would Tim Cain or MCA.. only Sawyer provides the really good gems via quotes.

 

I don't think I have ever called Sawyer a bad designer.. he's not.. he's very intelligent.. But he is very brash, stubborn and can even be sorta hostile sometimes.. The only reason we hold him up as a poster child is because there are just so many good quotes of him trashing other designers, players or ideas.

 

He's no angel on this crazy internet man. Do your homework before you roll a white knight class.

 

I do like to keep my criticism of him not personal. I would never attack him as a person and if anything I ever said seemed too far or too personal I apologize.

 

EDIT:

If you want more of his quotes let me know.. I got a collection going :lol: (I just google roguey and pick the best ones that come up)


Edited by Immortalis, 27 August 2014 - 03:10 PM.

  • Monte Carlo and Sartoris like this

#31
fortuntek

fortuntek

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 350 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer

 

I wouldn't either. The fans here fall on the side of passionate that is way past polite discussion. Sawyer shouldn't come anywhere near this thread to "engage" the backers that have forum signatures riddled with criticisms against the choices he's made and naming him personally. I know this is the internet and all and a tame part of it at that, but I mean come on, surely any one of the people here would find such a personal tone of aggressive criticism offensive if applied to your own workplaces. And even if you have an unnaturally thick skin, this type of debate is unlikely to go in a productive direction; the talk has been had, the decision made, and nothing we say here is likely to be even remotely new, it's simply a rehashing of arguments or statement of preferences, therefore an utter waste of his time. 

 

But I still am inclined to disagree with No XP. I'm just open to being proven wrong, or informed once a change is made.

 

Wowow.. You do know that sawyer can dish it out with the best of us right? Have you actually read some of the stuff he's said? I would never talk about him the same way I would Tim Cain or MCA.. only Sawyer provides the really good gems via quotes.

 

I don't think I have ever called Sawyer a bad designer.. he's not.. he's very intelligent.. But he is very brash, stubborn and can even be sorta hostile sometimes.. The only reason we hold him up as a poster child is because there are just so many good quotes of him trashing other designers, players or ideas.

 

He's no angel on this crazy internet man. Do your homework before you roll a white knight class.

 

I do like to keep my criticism of him not personal. I would never attack him as a person and if anything I ever said seemed too far or too personal I apologize.

 

 

I get what you mean but just because Sawyer has no problem "dishing it out," I would think that doesn't entitle people to come back stronger and harder and feel like he's okay with that. But hey, maybe he'd disagree and think it's fine, who knows... we are after all talking about someone neither of us know personally (which I am officially starting to find kind of weird so I'm gonna stop this here!)

As for the quotes trashing other players, designers or ideas... well I have a feeling that you're exaggerating a measured argument against something as "trashing it," but hell, I'll bite: care for some examples? That actually sounds like it'd be super entertaining :D



#32
Immortalis

Immortalis

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 301 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer

 

 

I wouldn't either. The fans here fall on the side of passionate that is way past polite discussion. Sawyer shouldn't come anywhere near this thread to "engage" the backers that have forum signatures riddled with criticisms against the choices he's made and naming him personally. I know this is the internet and all and a tame part of it at that, but I mean come on, surely any one of the people here would find such a personal tone of aggressive criticism offensive if applied to your own workplaces. And even if you have an unnaturally thick skin, this type of debate is unlikely to go in a productive direction; the talk has been had, the decision made, and nothing we say here is likely to be even remotely new, it's simply a rehashing of arguments or statement of preferences, therefore an utter waste of his time. 

 

But I still am inclined to disagree with No XP. I'm just open to being proven wrong, or informed once a change is made.

 

Wowow.. You do know that sawyer can dish it out with the best of us right? Have you actually read some of the stuff he's said? I would never talk about him the same way I would Tim Cain or MCA.. only Sawyer provides the really good gems via quotes.

 

I don't think I have ever called Sawyer a bad designer.. he's not.. he's very intelligent.. But he is very brash, stubborn and can even be sorta hostile sometimes.. The only reason we hold him up as a poster child is because there are just so many good quotes of him trashing other designers, players or ideas.

 

He's no angel on this crazy internet man. Do your homework before you roll a white knight class.

 

I do like to keep my criticism of him not personal. I would never attack him as a person and if anything I ever said seemed too far or too personal I apologize.

 

 

I get what you mean but just because Sawyer has no problem "dishing it out," I would think that doesn't entitle people to come back stronger and harder and feel like he's okay with that. But hey, maybe he'd disagree and think it's fine, who knows... we are after all talking about someone neither of us know personally (which I am officially starting to find kind of weird so I'm gonna stop this here!)

As for the quotes trashing other players, designers or ideas... well I have a feeling that you're exaggerating a measured argument against something as "trashing it," but hell, I'll bite: care for some examples? That actually sounds like it'd be super entertaining :D

 

 

So you didn't google roguey.. made me do it.. When he says most games get it wrong and most designers don't give 2 ****s about their product.. thats not a good old fashion trashing? :lol:

 

 

(regarding crpg rulesets) "Pretty much all games get it wrong."
"An awesome game with a crappy ruleset would be a better game if it had a better ruleset. Again, why grit your teeth and accept fundamentally dumb systems and their dumb adaptations into different media when such things clearly could be designed and executed better?"
"'Designer off in the clouds' generally only works out when the designer has a very solid technical understanding and focuses heavily on both gameplay mechanics and player experience. Most designers really couldn't give two ****s about either."


Edited by Immortalis, 27 August 2014 - 03:29 PM.

  • Sartoris likes this

#33
Monte Carlo

Monte Carlo

    Vorpal Panzerfaust of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 6720 posts
  • Location:England, This Blessed Plot
  • Xbox Gamertag:MonteCarlo
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

Josh Sawyer comes across, to me, as a decent person and a passionate advocate for gaming. For example, IMO Fallout 3 NV is a masterpiece and Sawyer should take not inconsiderable credit for his role in that.

 

That doesn't mean he can't have feet of clay. We all do.

 

He understands the passion here, and as Immortalis says, he is a robust person well-versed in the rough-and-tumble of internet debate. I've had occasional dialogue with the man, like many of us here, for almost fifteen years.

 

So I think it would be great if he checked in.


  • fortuntek and Immortalis like this

#34
fortuntek

fortuntek

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 350 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer

Ah, your "roguey" comment was updated after I started writing, don't blame me for that  ;) But I see no "trashing" going on here at all, hence I find using it as a reason to talk about a persons professional decisions in a personal manner to still be a bit jarring. But hey, maybe I'm just being nitpicky and overly White Knight-ish, and simply need to "re-desensitize" myself to such things by being on the internet more  :p This is going nowhere though so while I wouldn't mind continuing this via PM or something I'm finding that this discussion doesn't have much point anymore, and has been talked to death. I'm simply a little late to the party that's all. I get that everyone here has a lot of respect for Josh that is sometimes overshadowed by their passion for these type of games and the changes that people are making to their format.



#35
Immortalis

Immortalis

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 301 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer

Josh Sawyer comes across, to me, as a decent person and a passionate advocate for gaming. For example, IMO Fallout 3 NV is a masterpiece and Sawyer should take not inconsiderable credit for his role in that.

 

Totally Agree.. I'm glad he cuts through the **** and says like it is, it's refreshing after all the PR spin you hear everywhere else.. Nobody is saying he doesn't care or isn't a good designer. He is extremely passionate I just wish he cared more about our opinions.


  • Sartoris likes this

#36
bonarbill

bonarbill

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 326 posts

 

 

 

Sartoris and Immortalis are right about the problems with No XP.

 

Josh is also right about certain circumstances with where an "all creatures/enemies give you XP when you kill them" system leads to unwanted gameplay.

 

 

Why does it have to be one or the other? (I don't think you fairly represented the yellow corner, Mr. Mod!)

  • In quest chains, the worry is that if you are asked to side with NPC 'A' or NPC 'B,' siding none and killing all will always be the outcome that nets most profit via XP and loot. While this was true in IE games, this can be balanced by giving no XP is one or the other is killed first, or equal rewards for killing neither or only one, or alternating based on the situation, etc. I hope no one sees this as a problem.
  • Trash mobs in IE games gave a negligible amount of XP anyway. So what, 15xp from each Xvart split six ways, whoop-dee-doo! No big loss. But large, powerful creatures, or perhaps enemies above your level or that give some degree of challenge should give you a reward. Do you really want to only be killing things so you can collect the crap they drop and sell it?? It will very rarely be of use to your characters if every encounter works this way.
  • Why not give give varying XP, including none, based on the type of encounter? The only reason against doing this that I can think of is that it would require a lot of balancing and effort from devs. Don't get me wrong, this is a valid reason if true, but one that only a dev can comment on.

So... what's wrong with a little of column A and a little of column B? Can't we do a bit of both, specifically to address the problems of either extreme?

 

If you go back and read the 1500 posts on this topic that are all in the threads that got locked.. I mentioned like 5 ways to get around this abuse.. one of them is close to what your saying.

 

 

Yeah, I'm not surprised. I've heard a lot from people who want Kill XP and next to nothing from people who don't. Do these people actually exist? :p

In the end, as Polanski said, the devs likely are already well enough aware of the pros and cons, I suppose all that's left is to show them our preference while there's still (possibly) a window of opportunity for such a big change to gameplay.

 

Actually, I'm not sure that they could even make such a big change at this point without delaying the game...

 

 

I've waited 14 years for an actual well done successor to BGII. I'm willing to wait longer if we can make Pillars of Eternity that game.

 

 

Accept this isn't going to be a BGII successor.  It's an infinity engine style game.  And last time I checked, BGII isn't the only infinity engine game.


  • Namutree likes this

#37
Failion

Failion

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 311 posts

I never though about xp in infinity engine games besides grinding the fiends in baldurs gate 2 expansion for a few levels and killing those fiends for level ups in planescape torment. It wasn't fun but frustrating at the end of the day I knew nameless one will simply be a fighter with 3 attacks per round. It's nice now that you don't have to grind those yetis icewind dale or kill those city random encounters baldurs gate 2.


  • Orphansmith likes this

#38
Headbomb

Headbomb

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 325 posts
  • Location:Truro, Nova Scotia
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer

The rewards of combat is loot and the ability to go beyond. That is enough. Give me XP for achievements, not rat killing.

 

If you don't think it's worth killing rats for their rat tails, don't bother. If you think killing the wolves for their wolf pelts, kill away. No combat XP prevents "It's there, so I must kill it", while still rewarding you. Some things, like in life, cost more than what you get out of it. That's fine. If you thought wolf pelts were lame and not worth it, you'll dodge the next wolf group. And maybe you'll miss the lair entrance they were guarding, and the XP you'd get for discovering it.

 

Like in real life, you'll need to risk some resources upfront. Sometimes the payoff will be exploration XP and an adventurer's corpse with some fat loot, sometimes the payoff will be wolf pelts and a safe road for travellers and yourself.

 

And that's exactly what I love about no combat XP. No combat XP does not mean no combat reward! And you do away with pacifist-first-then-psycho gameplay, level grinding, etc...


Edited by Headbomb, 27 August 2014 - 04:01 PM.

  • Michael_Galt, Zansatsu and Orphansmith like this

#39
Sartoris

Sartoris

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 36 posts

 

 

 

 

Sartoris and Immortalis are right about the problems with No XP.

 

Josh is also right about certain circumstances with where an "all creatures/enemies give you XP when you kill them" system leads to unwanted gameplay.

 

 

Why does it have to be one or the other? (I don't think you fairly represented the yellow corner, Mr. Mod!)

  • In quest chains, the worry is that if you are asked to side with NPC 'A' or NPC 'B,' siding none and killing all will always be the outcome that nets most profit via XP and loot. While this was true in IE games, this can be balanced by giving no XP is one or the other is killed first, or equal rewards for killing neither or only one, or alternating based on the situation, etc. I hope no one sees this as a problem.
  • Trash mobs in IE games gave a negligible amount of XP anyway. So what, 15xp from each Xvart split six ways, whoop-dee-doo! No big loss. But large, powerful creatures, or perhaps enemies above your level or that give some degree of challenge should give you a reward. Do you really want to only be killing things so you can collect the crap they drop and sell it?? It will very rarely be of use to your characters if every encounter works this way.
  • Why not give give varying XP, including none, based on the type of encounter? The only reason against doing this that I can think of is that it would require a lot of balancing and effort from devs. Don't get me wrong, this is a valid reason if true, but one that only a dev can comment on.

So... what's wrong with a little of column A and a little of column B? Can't we do a bit of both, specifically to address the problems of either extreme?

 

If you go back and read the 1500 posts on this topic that are all in the threads that got locked.. I mentioned like 5 ways to get around this abuse.. one of them is close to what your saying.

 

 

Yeah, I'm not surprised. I've heard a lot from people who want Kill XP and next to nothing from people who don't. Do these people actually exist? :p

In the end, as Polanski said, the devs likely are already well enough aware of the pros and cons, I suppose all that's left is to show them our preference while there's still (possibly) a window of opportunity for such a big change to gameplay.

 

Actually, I'm not sure that they could even make such a big change at this point without delaying the game...

 

 

I've waited 14 years for an actual well done successor to BGII. I'm willing to wait longer if we can make Pillars of Eternity that game.

 

 

Accept this isn't going to be a BGII successor.  It's an infinity engine style game.  And last time I checked, BGII isn't the only infinity engine game.

 

 

Every single IE game had xp gained by killing monsters (as well and lots of other fun stuff), even Torment for crying out loud.



#40
Zansatsu

Zansatsu

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 287 posts
  • Location:America

I wouldn't either. The fans here fall on the side of passionate that is way past polite discussion. Sawyer shouldn't come anywhere near this thread to "engage" the backers that have forum signatures riddled with criticisms against the choices he's made and naming him personally. I know this is the internet and all and a tame part of it at that, but I mean come on, surely any one of the people here would find such a personal tone of aggressive criticism offensive if applied to your own workplaces. And even if you have an unnaturally thick skin, this type of debate is unlikely to go in a productive direction; the talk has been had, the decision made, and nothing we say here is likely to be even remotely new, it's simply a rehashing of arguments or statement of preferences, therefore an utter waste of his time. 

 

But I still am inclined to disagree with No XP. I'm just open to being proven wrong, or informed once a change is made.

I agree it would be unwise to come in here and discuss this with us. It would not go well and there is no upside to it. He would most likely drive more potential customers away and perhaps gain unwanted media attention over this issue.  







Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: experience, combat, leveling, quests

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users