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Sensuki's Suggestions #013: Take out the trash in the Dyrford Crossing


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Well JE Sawyer has clearly stated that bribing players to do combat is degenerative gameplay.. it means the combat sucked and wasn't fun.. Which means every wolf and beetle encounter is amazing on it's own.. you don't need rewards of any kind.

 

The point, Immortalis, is that you don't have to fight the wolves. The encounter doesn't have to be fun on its own. If there is kill-XP involved you will fight them for the XP. If there is not kill-XP involved you leave the wolves alone, like a reasonable person would do.

 

Wrong.

 

I talked my way out of numerous encounters in Divinity: Original Sin (which I recently played) and I didn't even get XP for these diplomatic solutions (God forbid). I was roleplaying and I decided in that playthrough that I don't want to kill them for their XP or loot. It was my decision in my game. I could have also just murdered them and received loot and XP as a reward, which would have been nice in that case.

 

Why is this so hard to understand? Why do you keep on repeating these absurd Sawyer-isms?

Pillars of Eternity Josh Sawyer's Quest: The Quest for Quests - an isometric fantasy stealth RPG with optional combat and no pesky XP rewards for combat, skill usage or exploration.


PoE is supposed to be a spiritual successor to Baldur's GateJosh Sawyer doesn't like the Baldur's Gate series (more) - PoE is supposed to reward us for our achievements


~~~~~~~~~~~


"Josh Sawyer created an RPG where always avoiding combat and never picking locks makes you a powerful warrior and a master lockpicker." -Helm, very critcal and super awesome RPG fan


"I like XP for things other than just objectives. When there is no rewards for combat or other activities, I think it lessens the reward for being successful at them." -Feargus Urquhart, OE CEO


"Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat [...] the lack of rewards for killing creatures [in PoE] makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game)" -George Ziets, Game Dev.

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Wrong.

 

I talked my way out of numerous encounters in Divinity: Original Sin (which I recently played) and I didn't even get XP for these diplomatic solutions (God forbid). I was roleplaying and I decided in that playthrough that I don't want to kill them for their XP or loot. It was my decision in my game. I could have also just murdered them and received loot and XP as a reward, which would have been nice in that case.

 

Why is this so hard to understand? Why do you keep on repeating these absurd Sawyer-isms?

 

So, your argument is that you don't care about XP, therefore you need Kill-XP?

"You're a fool if you believe I would trust your benevolence. Step aside and you and your lackeys will be unhurt."


 


 


Baldur's Gate portraits for Pillars of Eternity   IXI   Icewind Dale portraits for Pillars of Eternity   IXI   Icewind Dale 2 portraits for Pillars of Eternity


 


[slap Aloth]

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Wrong.

 

I talked my way out of numerous encounters in Divinity: Original Sin (which I recently played) and I didn't even get XP for these diplomatic solutions (God forbid). I was roleplaying and I decided in that playthrough that I don't want to kill them for their XP or loot. It was my decision in my game. I could have also just murdered them and received loot and XP as a reward, which would have been nice in that case.

 

Why is this so hard to understand? Why do you keep on repeating these absurd Sawyer-isms?

 

So, your argument is that you don't care about XP, therefore you need Kill-XP?

 

No, I like choice.

 

Do you not like loot drops when you kill something?

Edited by Helm

Pillars of Eternity Josh Sawyer's Quest: The Quest for Quests - an isometric fantasy stealth RPG with optional combat and no pesky XP rewards for combat, skill usage or exploration.


PoE is supposed to be a spiritual successor to Baldur's GateJosh Sawyer doesn't like the Baldur's Gate series (more) - PoE is supposed to reward us for our achievements


~~~~~~~~~~~


"Josh Sawyer created an RPG where always avoiding combat and never picking locks makes you a powerful warrior and a master lockpicker." -Helm, very critcal and super awesome RPG fan


"I like XP for things other than just objectives. When there is no rewards for combat or other activities, I think it lessens the reward for being successful at them." -Feargus Urquhart, OE CEO


"Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat [...] the lack of rewards for killing creatures [in PoE] makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game)" -George Ziets, Game Dev.

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I'm pretty sure that was your argument.

 

I'm pretty sure that you don't even try to understand.. I didn't get that from what he is saying..

 

I think the problem is that I am willing to see your side of the argument.. I totally get and agree with the pluses that no kill-xp is trying to achieve.. my beef is just the method to get there. You and a few others are actually just against the kill-xp system because it seems "archaic" and "dated" 2014 YOLO.. No matter what explanation or half measure I offer.. it's not enough.. inexcusable.. NEVER!

 

Like you just won't allow it to exist even though people in this thread who are against it.. are explaining in their own words that fighting is lackluster because it doesn't feel like it has purpose.. but nobody is allowed to say.. Kill -XP is missing.. no we have to point and type around that but still we say .. "Theses wolves and beetles and lions are boring and I want some meaning from fighting them"

Edited by Immortalis
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From George Ziets @ http://new.spring.me/#!/user/GZiets/timeline/responses

Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat. While this does put more emphasis on solving quests, the lack of rewards for killing creatures makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game) as much as I can.

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Nice attempt at a deflection, Immortalis.

 

(You don't have to fight them.)

"You're a fool if you believe I would trust your benevolence. Step aside and you and your lackeys will be unhurt."


 


 


Baldur's Gate portraits for Pillars of Eternity   IXI   Icewind Dale portraits for Pillars of Eternity   IXI   Icewind Dale 2 portraits for Pillars of Eternity


 


[slap Aloth]

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Nice attempt at a deflection, Immortalis.

 

(You don't have to fight them.)

 

Stop flinging poop please :lol:

From George Ziets @ http://new.spring.me/#!/user/GZiets/timeline/responses

Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat. While this does put more emphasis on solving quests, the lack of rewards for killing creatures makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game) as much as I can.

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I'm pretty sure that was your argument.

 

I'm pretty sure that you don't even try to understand.. I didn't get that from what he is saying..

 

I think the problem is that I am willing to see your side of the argument.. I totally get and agree with the pluses that no kill-xp is trying to achieve.. my beef is just the method to get there. You and a few others are actually just against the kill-xp system because it seems "archaic" and "dated" 2014 YOLO.. No matter what explanation or half measure I offer.. it's not enough.. inexcusable.. NEVER!

 

Like you just won't allow it to exist even though people in this thread who are against it.. are explaining in their own words that fighting is lackluster because it doesn't feel like it has purpose.. but nobody is allowed to say.. Kill -XP is missing.. no we have to point and type around that but still we say .. "Theses wolves and beetles and lions are boring and I want some meaning from fighting them"

 

 

 

100% agree. Unfortunately, because people are likely going to feel like the combat, or at least some portion of the encounters (the devs can't design perfectly), are not rewarding enough, when they come across those they will just reload to avoid them.

 

To Sawyer and Co.:

 

Please stop trying to make me engage with your content only in the way you want me to. Let me do whatever I want and reward me as best you can. If the reward you give for various playstyles is not perfectly equal, that's unfortunate, but very similar to the games you are seeking to emulate e.i. the IE games.

 

I would much rather play a game that has the same flaws as the IE games than one that has a whole host of new ones implemented in a misguided attempt to eliminate the old ones. Especially since those new systems don't even eliminate the old problems. They just substitute degenerate gameplay with a different kind of degenerate gameplay.

Edited by Sartoris
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People seriously expect Obsidian to actually put tons of effort and narrative background behind every wolf?

 

So it feels more satisfying why they are there?

 

Is this just a scapegoat for the real problem..

the wolves are tedious to fight because they are nothing but a pointless obstacle.. AKA why everyone in this thread is discussing "WHERES THE LOOT"

 

Adding pig corpses or bandits riding the wolves and chasing cultists will make the encounter slightly better.. maybe... the first time you play the game.

 

Seriously just implement kill -xp and make sure the fight is hard. Easy fix. The backwards rationalizing going on here is astounding..

 

 

I'd like Obsidian to tie the beetles, wolves, etc. into the world more and I don't care either way if there is kill XP. I want a world that is interesting and makes sense. I think that the suggestion that you find bones near the wolves and be able to return them to someone in Dyrford Village (or elsewhere) would be good, especially if it's something more than a fetch quest. Maybe you'll learn more about the history of the area or of the villager's family or something. Or if you find pigs by the wolves, it might be an explanation for some of the missing pigs in the village. Things like that make me want to learn more about the world and keep me interested in a game. Obviously, YMMV but don't assume that people don't like the filler combat because they don't get good loot/kill xp or that kill xp would in any way fix the problem for some players. 

Edited by oaktownbrown
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If every group gave sort of an "encounter" exp pack, tied to the exploration of the surrounding area (wolves near the ruin for example), that could be awarded only once (no advantage in repeating the encounter), it would make a good system maybe.

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In a game where there is no combat XP my first instinct is to say "there shalt be no none storyline/plot combat." but as I have stated before having a few trash encounters about to, well, trash can really feel refreshing compared to constant hard encounters that force you to use 100% of you skill.

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Well.

Because of the size of the PoE maps in relation to the size of characters, and their  current walk speed,- this game is always going to feel "crowded". 

Trash mobs in strange places will happen a lot, i feel. Otherwise there will be too little going on for most people.

This is a fundamental problem, and is probably not going to change. 

 

People are expecting a big game here, but even with Sawyers "150+" maps or whatever, It will be over quicker than you think.

 

I suggest they lower the walk speed, and then leave some wilderness areas for exploration with fewer enemies.

 

Mind you, this is a beta, and hopefully they will space it out a bit better for the final game.

Edited by Gorionsson
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"The harder the world, the fiercer the honour."

Weapon master,- Flail of the dead horse +5.

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I want to get back to the original topic posted by @Sensuki

 

But first a question : has anyone tried to talk with the wolves or the beetles with a Druid (assuming that is possible)?  Perhaps there is dialog that we are not aware of, first of all.

 

And then I would like to point out something even weirder (and just...immersion breaking) : why are giant spiders of different types co-existing with an Ogre in a cave?  Why haven't they long since eaten the Ogre?  Why don't the wolves and the beetles attack the deer?  Easily the more harmless way to get a quick meal!

 

So this is what I would suggest :

 

One - make it possible to have dialog with the beetles and the wolves (Druid only, probably).

 

The beetles are just hungry, scavaging - give consumable X and get by.

 

The wolves have been displaced from the cave (their territorial habitat and home) and are really upset and angry about it.  Give a dialog (Druid) with a mini-quest to clear out cave, and the party also gets valuable information about location, etc of Ogre.

 

Two - replace the spiders in the cave with bandits.  The bandits are working together with the Ogre (kind of makes a bit more sense to me).  Move the spiders to the second ruins (with the secret, hidden treasure).  Perhaps a mini-complex like a lost tomb for the queen spider.

 

Three - make it possible to get consumable X from deer (and make beetles, spiders, wolves hostile vs deer AND each other!).  It should be possible for a clever party to lure one group into another (beetles vs wolves!  Spiders vs beetles! etc).

 

I think the would probably clear things up rather nicely (as an added bonus, make it possible to have a dialog with the deer to get info about the area, perhaps?)

 

What do you all think?

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Jeebus, guys. Do you really have to turn every thread into a whine about no combat XP?

 

Yes! :yes:

From George Ziets @ http://new.spring.me/#!/user/GZiets/timeline/responses

Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat. While this does put more emphasis on solving quests, the lack of rewards for killing creatures makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game) as much as I can.

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I want to get back to the original topic posted by @Sensuki

 

But first a question : has anyone tried to talk with the wolves or the beetles with a Druid (assuming that is possible)?  Perhaps there is dialog that we are not aware of, first of all.

 

And then I would like to point out something even weirder (and just...immersion breaking) : why are giant spiders of different types co-existing with an Ogre in a cave?  Why haven't they long since eaten the Ogre?  Why don't the wolves and the beetles attack the deer?  Easily the more harmless way to get a quick meal!

 

 

One - make it possible to have dialog with the beetles and the wolves (Druid only, probably).

 

The beetles are just hungry, scavaging - give consumable X and get by.

 

I tried to interact with the beetles as a Druid but wasn't able to do anything. I was a bit disappointed since I'd like to be able to "converse" with at least some of the animals. (Maybe it could be a talent that I could choose as a Druid or maybe I first have to cast charm animal, which I did after not being able to communicate with them, but it didn't let me talk to the beetles.)  I haven't gotten to the wolves yet. The bug that makes the BBs stuck and the bug where members disappear from your bar on the lower left have made finishing the Dyrwood Ruins difficult so I haven't gotten to the wolves yet. 

 

I agree about the spiders. If deer are anything like the deer in this world, presumably the wolves and beetles have attacked many deer and the deer we see is one (of many) who survived. There are a lot more deer than wolves (or beetles if they eat deer). I like your first two suggestions. 

 

One thing that has been bothering me a bit as a Druid is the dragon egg quest. I wouldn't steal the egg as a Druid. Is that a problem? I.e., is there a way to complete it without getting the egg? If not, are the quests balanced across classes so that there will be other quests (with similar XP) that presumably a fighter or a monk wouldn't complete? 

Edited by oaktownbrown
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