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The Chanter has spoken

Chanter Thoughts Balance

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13 replies to this topic

#1
Ganrich

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So, I have focused a lot more on the Chanter than other classes as it is the class I plan on playing first.  I want to get into some of their abilities and why they are probably overpowered.  I am going to keep this as brief as I can.

 

Why are they OP:

Summons - I am unsure if summons are broken mechanically or whether they are intended to last as long as they currently do.  Currently... you summon creatures during the first beetle encounter, and they can work in the frontline for the rest of the map.  Three Skeletons + fighter in the front line reduces the parties need to cast spells, and increases longevity between rests far too much, IMHO.  The lack of a way to dismiss Summons makes me wonder if Summons are suppose to dismiss themselves once combat ends.  If this is the case then minor tweaks are needed.  If it isn't the case then the summons need their Stamina Pools reduced, and/or they need only summon 1 creature at a time (3 skeletons is too much).  Three skeletons also tends to clog up some of the maps... although that is another issue entirely.

 

Buff/Debuff - The chanter has a plethora of these abilities:  They have a haste for ranged classes, they can give allies burn damage on their weapons, they can cause fear debuffs, they can reduce Concentration, they can do AoE stamina damage in multiple ways, they can Hobble targets, they can defend/reduce fear effects, etc.  These are all phrases, and have no limits to uses per day/rest.  They are weaved in a way that makes it like an ever changing Bard Song.  They are all AoE.  Used in certain ways they can really assist your party, and can be somewhat OP by themselves.  I think they are mostly fine, but some tweaking to certain ones like:  Come, Come Soft Winds of Death (AoE stamina damage).  I love it, and have great fun with it, but I can see it being too powerful.

 

AoE - The Chanter has almost all AoE abilities except for the summons.  So, you can buff, debuff, Damage, and CC entire groups of allies/enemies.  This is a big one.  I particular Culprit is The Thunder Rolled Like Waves on Black Seas.  This is an invocation (spell ability that requires 3 phrase counters) that pushes enemies away from the Chanter and Stuns them (Cone spell).  So, you can AoE stun enemies while pushing them away from your weaker party members.  If you hit the bulk of your enemies you can really change the outcome of a fight.

 

My 2 cents here is that Chanters need summons tuned down (them dismissing after a encounter would be a big one), some AoE abilities (invocations) may need to be single target, and some tweaking may need to be in order for the Phrases.  I may have missed something and would love more input.


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#2
InsaneCommander

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Chanters are cool. I really like how we can create our own songs with different phrase combinations. :)

 

I agree with everything you said, except reducing the number of skeletons. I think it's nice to summon three, since there is another summon for only 1 creature (the ghost? I don't remember very well. I didn't try that one). Instead of reducing to 1, imo it'd be better to make them weaker. Can't comment on the clog up because I only summoned them once and I had to leave the game because of a bug.


Edited by InsaneCommander, 24 August 2014 - 12:22 PM.

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#3
PrimeJunta

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I also like the three skeletons. Having them hang around drinking tea after the fight just feels wrong though. Just slash the duration and/or stamina, and we're golden.


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#4
Ganrich

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Chanters are cool. I really like how we can create our own songs with different phrase combinations. :)

 

I agree with everything you said, except reducing the number of skeletons. I think it's nice to summon three, since there is another summon for only 1 creature (the ghost? I don't remember very well. I didn't try that one). Instead of reducing to 1, imo it'd be better to make them weaker. Can't comment on the clog up because I only summoned them once and I had to leave the game because of a bug.

 

Fair point.  They do need to be weakened in either number or stamina atm.  I am fine either way.  Interior areas get congested with a party of 5 and 3 skeletons, and I can only imagine what would happen if that 6th party member was a Ranger.  I am not a summoner at heart... so however they balance them won't cause any ramifications on my end. 

The Chanters get 1 or 2 more summons at level 6 where they get their level 2 Invocations.  I lucked out and hit level 6 before the game bugged out on me.



#5
Shadenuat

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Would be nice if other classes got their own unique summons too, cause otherwise it looks like nobody but Chanters are capable of summoning help for now (druid's Blight is so weak, slow and buggy for now it's not worth talking about).


Edited by Shadenuat, 24 August 2014 - 12:30 PM.

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#6
Mayama

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I agree way to powerfull especially the interaction between summons and buffing everyone.


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#7
InsaneCommander

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When I summoned the skeletons, the game tried to create three new protraits for them beside the other characters and it froze. I forgot about this and erased the file. My new chanter doesn't have the skeletons, so I can't reproduce that bug right now.



#8
Gromnir

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summons has always been problematic in these games. the summoned critter not only acts as a near impenetrable shield (even if only for a short time) but it may potential do damage as well. the PoE ranger companion actual balances this quite well by making the ranger's animal friend a voodoo doll that transmits damaged suffered directly to the ranger. 

 

we has played a chanter but only through the meredith battle, and am admitting it has some nifty gameplay aspects. in general, we is very pleased at just how unique all the classes feel... although we have no urge to play a monk. in our consciousness, monks spend their day in prayer and simple labor, perhaps manually copying books or making cheese and beer. sidetracked. in any event, am impressed by the uniqueness o' the classes.

 

HA! Good Fun!


Edited by Gromnir, 24 August 2014 - 01:26 PM.


#9
Mayama

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summons has always been problematic in these games. the summoned critter not only acts as a near impenetrable shield (even if only for a short time) but it may potential do damage as well. the PoE ranger companion actual balances this quite well by making the ranger's animal friend a voodoo doll, that transmits damaged suffered directly to the ranger. 

 

we has played a chanter but only through the meredith battle, and am admitting it has some nifty gameplay aspects. in general, we is very pleased at just how unique all the classes feel... although we have no urge to play a monk. in our consciousness, monks spend their day in prayer and simple labor, perhaps manually copying books or making cheese or beer. sidetracked. in any event, am impressed by the uniqueness o' the classes.

 

HA! Good Fun!

They also punch lions to death. Summons are awesome (OP?) for trap clearing and you can use your piglet for it too. 



#10
Ganrich

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Would be nice if other classes got their own unique summons too, cause otherwise it looks like nobody but Chanters are capable of summoning help for now (druid's Blight is so weak, slow and buggy for now it's not worth talking about).

 

Every class has something unique they bring to the table.  Chanters, outside of their phrase/chant/invocation mechanics... buff, debuff, and summon.  Their purpose, in my estimation, is to augment the party and reduce the need for other classes to spend resources.  They focus on reducing damage dealt to your party, increase damage put out by your party, some CC, and some AoE damage. 

 

Their damage from spells is abysmal compared to druids, wizards, and Ciphers (Soul Ignition LOL).  Their CCs are reliant on having 3+ Chant Counters which don't come quickly... so other classes can pull down CC better because they can do it whenever they like depending on resources.  Their having more summons is a way to assist this. 

 

I am not saying that Druids and Wizards shouldn't have summons, but that those summons shouldn't be better than the Chanters.  Summons and Buff/Debuffs are the best things Chanters bring to the table.  If Druids and Wizards get anywhere close to the Chanter than the Chanter has a chance of getting a 2nd class citizen card for everything in the game (like Bards in the IE and NWN games).



#11
Gromnir

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Would be nice if other classes got their own unique summons too, cause otherwise it looks like nobody but Chanters are capable of summoning help for now (druid's Blight is so weak, slow and buggy for now it's not worth talking about).

 

Every class has something unique they bring to the table.  Chanters, outside of their phrase/chant/invocation mechanics... buff, debuff, and summon.  Their purpose, in my estimation, is to augment the party and reduce the need for other classes to spend resources.  They focus on reducing damage dealt to your party, increase damage put out by your party, some CC, and some AoE damage. 

 

Their damage from spells is abysmal compared to druids, wizards, and Ciphers (Soul Ignition LOL).  Their CCs are reliant on having 3+ Chant Counters which don't come quickly... so other classes can pull down CC better because they can do it whenever they like depending on resources.  Their having more summons is a way to assist this. 

 

I am not saying that Druids and Wizards shouldn't have summons, but that those summons shouldn't be better than the Chanters.  Summons and Buff/Debuffs are the best things Chanters bring to the table.  If Druids and Wizards get anywhere close to the Chanter than the Chanter has a chance of getting a 2nd class citizen card for everything in the game (like Bards in the IE and NWN games).

 

we don't want druids to have summons... 'least not at the moment. our druid were able to lay down some serious hurt with near over-the-top offensive spells. 

 

HA! Good Fun!


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#12
Mayama

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we don't want druids to have summons... 'least not at the moment. our druid were able to lay down some serious hurt with near over-the-top offensive spells. 

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Anyone else thinks that druids are way to damage orientated right now?


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#13
Ganrich

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Yeah, Druids are definitely very strong in the game.  They only have 1 summon spell, and it is buggy atm.  That spell might get a power increase at a higher level though.  I think that, thematically, Druids should have some summons.  However, mechanically they do not need them.  They are tough as nails, and their spells are really good.

EDIT:

 

 

 

 

we don't want druids to have summons... 'least not at the moment. our druid were able to lay down some serious hurt with near over-the-top offensive spells. 

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Anyone else thinks that druids are way to damage orientated right now?

 

 

I have been debating that for a little while.  I am going to make a Druid again at some point today to test some spells.  I definitely think they need more healing though.  We moved away from Rogues being needed to pick locks/disarm traps, but we only have 1 class built around solid healing (priest).  I think that there need to be more options on healing and the druid has always been the go to in that regard.


Edited by Ganrich, 24 August 2014 - 12:53 PM.


#14
Shadenuat

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All classic casters are too over specialized now, which is strange, because it was promised that classes would be suitable for multiple roles. Wizards cannot into summons, Druids only get healing at level 3 but are loaded with damage spells that copy themselves through levels, Priests are all same no matter what they worship.


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