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Itemization feels bland


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One of my funnest RPG experiences was playing a supposedly low magic mod for original NWN.I was tasked to venture to this tomb alone as a young boy for a reason that escapes me right now.But what was so excellent about it was that the tomb was dark and I had to go back to town and grab a torch.I remember that when I finally finished the tomb clearance and was venturing out into the world I was gifted a truly unique and much needed gift of a ring that cast light.I ran back to the tomb to try it out and was loving this mod.Then a few levels later I realized it wasn't a low magic mod and rather a lower magic mod till level 3 or 4 and then I was brimming with magical items in my pack.I quit the mod and never looked back.

 

Now I know that many people love magical items and its part of the fantasy RPG experience but I do agree that it has to be done right.Magical items need rarity to make them better BUT then people will complain that there is not enough of them.Its a tight line to walk and I wish the devs well on this one.Crafting to remove magical properties from items to place on another item though?That removes the lore of a great craftsman who wielded great power to instill an object with certain properties.

 

That said I have always thought that a kool way to do weapons is to make the better weapons made out of heavier and heavier materials and as you leveled up you gained the strength and technique to wield such items.Same with armor at high levels would crush simple grunts under their weight and make them unable to move while a truly seasoned warrior,maybe with a bit of magical strength enhancement from a magic wielding friend could empower them to fight with these extremely heavy and forged in the depths materials.LOL NM that rant!! :w00t:

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The item system seems mechanically great to me. The PE system has an element of randomness which reduces metagaming and helps successive play throughs feel different. I far prefer this to the IE system where people metagamed item drops (get a paladin for the holy avenger, make sure you have someone to use the crom faeyr, Mazzy is only good if you get a str belt for her - so get that first, Keldorn needs dex gloves or he sucks, etc etc) . I also disliked how In BG2, players would scramble to get certain immunity items to trivialize certain encounters (make sure to get the shield of balduran before you fight the beholders, get immunity to level drain before fighting vamps, etc etc). In other words, its GOOD that they reduced the emphasis on OP item bonuses so that players can focus on what should matter more - character builds and party composition.

 

I do believe that the presentation element could be a bit better. I would like a return to the sketched item images in the description, for example.

Edited by Shevek
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The item system seems mechanically great to me. The PE system has an element of randomness which reduces metagaming and helps successive play throughs feel different. I far prefer this to the IE system where people metagamed item drops (get a paladin for the holy avenger, make sure you have someone to use the crom faeyr, Mazzy is only good if you get a str belt for her - so get that first, Keldorn needs dex gloves or he sucks, etc etc) . I also disliked how In BG2, players would scramble to get certain immunity items to trivialize certain encounters (make sure to get the shield of balduran before you fight the beholders, get immunity to level drain before fighting vamps, etc etc). In other words, its GOOD that they reduced the emphasis on OP item bonuses so that players can focus on what should matter more - character builds and party composition.

 

I do believe that the presentation element could be a bit better. I would like a return to the sketched item images in the description, for example.

 

That sucked in BG2 that I needed to set up a character to be able to use the flail of ages.I wonder if a background program can change a great magical item into one that the player wields.Then again one weapon of great power from each class would work here also.

 

That said I have always wanted RPG's to cater more to an adventure feel like in the D&D days where you would buy an "Adventure for levels one to three".Make an engine with excellent abilities and then start churning out adventures every few months.Small 10 hour adventures packed with super high quality FTW!

Edited by wolfstriked
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Why so much fake butthurt and so many lies? BG2 never "forced" you to find a character to use particular item, there was something for everyone.

Not to mention examples are all wrong, like, Mazzy had STR-increasing buff and grandmastery in short bows.

 

Plus since in PoE any character can use any weapon or armor and can specialize in whole sets of weapons, that problem would never exist.

Edited by Shadenuat
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Why so much fake butthurt and so many lies? BG2 never "forced" you to find a character to use particular item, there was something for everyone.

Not to mention examples are all wrong, like, Mazzy had STR-increasing buff and grandmastery in short bows.

 

Plus since in PoE any character can use any weapon or armor and can specialize in whole sets of weapons, that problem would never exist.

 

I think its more a psychological thing. For example: In some random rpg the most powerfull weapon is a hammer, most players would feel gimped if they did not choose hat weapon category for their fighter. The feel forced to always use hammers because else their character would be inferior.

Edited by Mayama
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Why so much fake butthurt and so many lies? BG2 never "forced" you to find a character to use particular item, there was something for everyone.

Not to mention examples are all wrong, like, Mazzy had STR-increasing buff and grandmastery in short bows.

 

Plus since in PoE any character can use any weapon or armor and can specialize in whole sets of weapons, that problem would never exist.

 

I think its more a psychological thing. For example: In some random rpg the most powerfull weapon is a hammer, most players would feel gimped if they did not choose hat weapon category for their fighter. The feel forced to always use hammers because else their character would be inferior.

 

 

This game is going to shoot itself in the foot trying to 'fix' all these 'issues' that don't even matter in a single player RPG.....

 

Lots of things looking bland atm.

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I think its more a psychological thing. For example: In some random rpg the most powerfull weapon is a hammer, most players would feel gimped if they did not choose hat weapon category for their fighter. The feel forced to always use hammers because else their character would be inferior.

It is not easy to pinpoint most powerful weapon in BG2 though, that was it's strength.

Edited by Shadenuat
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It is not easy to pinpoint most powerful weapon in BG2 though, that was it's strength.

Uhm BG2 had items and item combinations that trivialized most content, especially if you combined them with specific multiclassed characters.

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Ya, items in BG2 were way WAY OP. Cormsyr (sp?), Crom Faeyr, Robe of Vecna, Ring of Gaxx, etc... BG2 was fun but way too Monty Hall. They tossed artifacts around like they were candy. Ultimately, the ITEMS mattered more than the few character development choices the player made. That is not a strength. That is a weakness.

 

Folks can call PE items "bland" but I will take "bland" PE items over BG2 style itemization any day.

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Uhm BG2 had items and item combinations that trivialized most content, especially if you combined them with specific multiclassed characters.

 

That has nothing to do with your previous statement or my reply to it. If game gives you a powerful weapon against vampires, and then only throws at you vampires who hit you in melee, it doesn't mean that the item is poorly designed.

 

 

the ITEMS mattered more than the few character development choices the player made

No, it felt that way because item system was more robust than character one. Leveling up was fairly automatic compared to future D&D games that had special feats, abilities and free multiclassing. It is not a fault of a designer who filled world with cool items.

 

If anything, it's a testament to their work since a lot of customisation and playing around was possible just because there were so many interesting toys in the world, even if system itself wasn't complex.

Edited by Shadenuat
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Ya/No. It WAS their fault, cause they decided to make a product on a rather strict DND license / chose to stay as true as possible to the license for marketing or what ever reason they chose.

Black Isle COULD have created an entirely free game on their own, like Obisidian is doing now with PoE, but they didn´t. They didn`t even take much away from the core rules of the Edition. This all is "someone`s fault", ofcourse. Things like this don`t happen out of nowhere.

 

That`s why I praise Obisidian for at least one thing: They dared to make something new. Obviously many people are not happy with the way this "new" thing turned out, while some are.

 

I guess if they polish the Itemization and take a step back from this Diablo 3- ish approach with abandoning it entirely, everything will be fine.

Edited by Valeris
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Obsidian used fame of old games to get money to make their own game and possibly get even more money out of it. They're basically in debt of games like Baldur's Gate for what they got. They would not go on Kickstarter to "make something new".

But that's really beyond discussion about item systems.

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Uhm BG2 had items and item combinations that trivialized most content, especially if you combined them with specific multiclassed characters.

 

That has nothing to do with your previous statement or my reply to it. If game gives you a powerful weapon against vampires, and then only throws at you vampires who hit you in melee, it doesn't mean that the item is poorly designed.

 

 

No i meant that it had item / class combinations that allowed you to walk through the game complelty immortal.

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Nobody is saying the items need to be overpowered, but that doesn't mean the only alternative is that they all be the sort of generic stuff you can make yourself.  I want unique items with history, interesting descriptions and backgrounds or at the very least interesting ways of gaining them.  Like IWD2, with the slightly improved... dagger, I think it was, that you got in a roundabout fashion from the ghost at the starting inn.  Not overpowered at all, but it sticks in your mind. 

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No i meant that it had item / class combinations that allowed you to walk through the game complelty immortal.

 

 

 

No it didn't.

 

You're not going anywhere with this, you know.

Edited by Shadenuat
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Does it matter? We can argue about metagaming **** out of BG2 for pages.

 

The argument was - some items in IE were so good, that party felt gimped without classes who could use them. In PoE any class can use any item and there is no Grandmastery, so there is no need for enchantment or effect-moving mechanic.

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how do you come to this kind of conclusion? they specifically stated that the backer beta will intentionally provide as little content as possible as to avoid spoilers. in my mind this includes any kind of unique items. 

 

so when you think that the game will not have them at all based on a vertical slice it makes me wonder: do you have some additional information maybe?

Go look up some Josh Sawyer quotes on enchantments. I am fairly positive he said that every item bonus can be added through enchantments and none of them are truly unique.

 

 

God, I hope that isn't the case.

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No i meant that it had item / class combinations that allowed you to walk through the game complelty immortal.

 

 

 

No it didn't.

 

You're not going anywhere with this, you know.

 

 

I start to think that some people really dont have a clue about BG2 or they just dont want to admit that not everything was golden back than.

You are propably think that beastmasters, kensais and the infamous wild mages were balanced too. 

 

Staff of the magi: Invisibility, immune to charm, protection from evil on equip, strikes as a weapon +5 and DISPELS magic on hit. Usable by mage.

This weapons makes any encounter with powerfull mages a joke, multilevel any close combat fighter with a thief to get the "you can use any item" ability and go mage hunting. ( multi with a mage im not sure if it worked with weapons)

 

cloak of mirroring: deflect ALL spell damage, this item + ring of free action = completly immune to magic

 

Celestial fury: Katana that stuns if you fail a save, combine it with a spell that lowers save throws and you can stun lock almost any boss in the game

 

Staff of the ram: 10% to know back enemies, no saving throw. Haste the guy that uses it and you perma know back enemies.

 

That are normal items, no exploiting.

Edited by Mayama
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I think its more a psychological thing. For example: In some random rpg the most powerfull weapon is a hammer, most players would feel gimped if they did not choose hat weapon category for their fighter. The feel forced to always use hammers because else their character would be inferior.

It is not easy to pinpoint most powerful weapon in BG2 though, that was it's strength.

 

 

 

Uhm BG2 had items and item combinations that trivialized most content, especially if you combined them with specific multiclassed characters.

 

That has nothing to do with your previous statement or my reply to it. If game gives you a powerful weapon against vampires, and then only throws at you vampires who hit you in melee, it doesn't mean that the item is poorly designed.

 

 

 

 

No i meant that it had item / class combinations that allowed you to walk through the game complelty immortal.

 

 

 

No it didn't.

 

You're not going anywhere with this, you know.

 

 

 

List off completly game breaking and OP items.

 

 

Yup.

 

Items in that game were p. awesome.

 

 

Why can't you just admit that you were wrong?

Edited by Mayama
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