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Attributes: The case for turning Might into Strength, and improving the whole system in the process.

Attributes Might Strength Balance

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#41
PrimeJunta

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I guess most summon spells that deal with outer planes could easily have had non combat content which was absent. Then there are all the spells like Friends, Wish, True Sight, Infravision, Spook, Horror, Emotion, Know alignment, Farsight in BGs which could have easily had a story based role. NWN2 has way more spells than that which are non combat utility. The real problem is that they are useless as MOST if not all the "spell using"encounters are combat based. 

 

Friends was of extremely limited use in the IE games. Wish was never properly implemented (couldn't be, since there's no way to implement such a thing in a computer game). True Sight was primarily a combat buff. Infravision was there and I think I even cast it, once, before acquiring an object that had it on it when I needed it. Spook, Horror, Emotion were all combat spells (and good ones at that). I'll give you Know alignment but... when was that actually useful? Farsight... no recollection of using that.

 

PnP is a whole 'nuther ball game--dig or passwall, anyone?--but I honestly don't recall having much use for magic out of combat in any of the IE games or their successors. Crafting, of course, but that mostly used combat spells.



#42
Captain Shrek

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I guess most summon spells that deal with outer planes could easily have had non combat content which was absent. Then there are all the spells like Friends, Wish, True Sight, Infravision, Spook, Horror, Emotion, Know alignment, Farsight in BGs which could have easily had a story based role. NWN2 has way more spells than that which are non combat utility. The real problem is that they are useless as MOST if not all the "spell using"encounters are combat based. 

 

Friends was of extremely limited use in the IE games. Wish was never properly implemented (couldn't be, since there's no way to implement such a thing in a computer game). True Sight was primarily a combat buff. Infravision was there and I think I even cast it, once, before acquiring an object that had it on it when I needed it. Spook, Horror, Emotion were all combat spells (and good ones at that). I'll give you Know alignment but... when was that actually useful? Farsight... no recollection of using that.

 

PnP is a whole 'nuther ball game--dig or passwall, anyone?--but I honestly don't recall having much use for magic out of combat in any of the IE games or their successors. Crafting, of course, but that mostly used combat spells.

 

 

 

Are you purposefully misreading my posts?

 

I clearly said that in IE games or in NWN2 these spells never had any non combat use despite having non combat utility. 



#43
PrimeJunta

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No, I'm not. I am a little confused though. You were criticizing P:E's wizards as "simple damage/buff engines." I asked how they're different from IE wizards. You brought up noncombat spells. Now you're pointing out that the noncombat spells never had any noncombat use. 

 

So I guess I'll get back to that: if P:E wizards are "simple damage/buff engines," how are they different from IE wizards again?



#44
Captain Shrek

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Pretty good damage dealer with  actual non combat spells. Just check the NWN2/BG2 spell list how huge it is and contains a LOT of non-combat-only situation spells. That is telling: NWN/IE games had a different problem. They did not have the content to justify the spell list. Which would imply the fix should have been to include the content, not remove the spells. 

 

 


Edited by Captain Shrek, 24 August 2014 - 08:24 AM.


#45
PrimeJunta

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I wasn't asking you how you think the IE/NWN games should have been. I was--still am--taking you to task about what you said about the P:E classes compared to the IE classes, as they actually were. Earlier on, didn't you say that P:E wizards are just like P:E archers except with sparkly arrows? Also something about MMO-esque?* 

 

Basically, I'm trying to get a handle on your criticism, but not much luck here. So exactly what do you think is worse about P:E's classes than IE classes?

 

*Yes, you did. I checked.



#46
Fearabbit

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Again, this is way off-topic guys.

 

By the way, I like the narrative reason to have a "soul power" attribute. I don't think the game needs to be boring and old-fashioned about its attributes - if a new attribute fits the world perfectly, then definitely put it in! That said, I have a problem with Might being that attribute and boiling down to both physical and mental damage.

 

It would've been cool if the "soul power attribute" had a very specific purpose for each class, to show how souls influence every part of life, but in different ways. Fighters use it to guide their strikes, resulting in higher crits; ciphers basically have a "soul duel" with their enemy, so that the time needed to gather Focus is shorter the higher the soul's power is; chanters can invite more souls to their "reenactments", and so on. These are just examples, but having it do something very specific instead of being a generic damage modifier would have been more interesting, I believe, and would have driven home the point that this extra power does not come from mental or physical capabilities, but from somewhere else.

 

(In that case I still would have implemented a Strength attribute though. 7 attributes - 3 mental, 3 physical, one for the soul's power. That would have been nice.)

 

Quoting myself because this is still off-topic, you guys.

 

Also:

Captain Shrek was talking about how IE games (or NWN) had a spell list that technically would have allowed some interesting use of magic outside of magic, but they didn't implement it properly. So there was potential there, and his argument was basically "the solution to this is to add the necessary content, not to simply take away that untapped potential".

PrimaJunta meanwhile doesn't see the problem because to him the potential didn't exist - his point being that if it was left unused, then it wasn't really there in the first place.

 

Of course PoE doesn't owe it to the IE games to use this untapped potential in any way. It doesn't become an action RPG if it uses its abilities in the same way as every cRPG ever does, i.e. for combat. It just becomes a normal RPG. (Well, Arcanum and the Elder Scrolls games have some non-combat spells I can think of that were actually useful, but those are open-world games and follow a different design philosophy anyway.)

 

So with all positions regarding this discussion cleared, let's move on.


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#47
Wintersong

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Healing is not a mental thing. Either the body heals, or your "soul power" is responsible for that, in which case it would have to be Might. Technically I think it should be Constitution, but Strength kind of makes sense as well since it's your muscle tissue that is affected by healing.

I don't really get this. If magical damage cannot use Might, neither magical healing. Nothing agaisnt proposing variations to the system that may improve them/the_game. But that point doesn't make much sense, that's all.

 

My proposal to end all the proposals:

  • Midichlorian Count
  • Physical Resistance
  • Scope
  • Radar
  • IQ
  • Determination

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#48
Fearabbit

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Healing is not a mental thing. Either the body heals, or your "soul power" is responsible for that, in which case it would have to be Might. Technically I think it should be Constitution, but Strength kind of makes sense as well since it's your muscle tissue that is affected by healing.

I don't really get this. If magical damage cannot use Might, neither magical healing. Nothing agaisnt proposing variations to the system that may improve them/the_game. But that point doesn't make much sense, that's all.

 

First of all, your proposal is awesome. :D And yeah in a Star Wars universe this would actually make a lot of sense, but then I'd be annoyed that Chewie and other non-Jedi melee fighters don't do any damage. They'd need a Strength attribute. (Also Midichlorian Count would be a dump stat for them.)

This comes back to the thing that I believe a "Soul Power" attribute is useful and cool in a setting like this, but should still be separate from physical damage.

 

As for Healing: It depends whether the Healing is supposed to be soul-based or physical. Physical healing belongs in a physical attribute, soul-based healing in a soul-based attribute - but if it's a soul-based attribute, then that attribute shouldn't include physical damage, like Might currently does. Simple as that.

My assumption was that Healing can also be physical healing and in this case, it would be alright to leave it in Strength.


Edited by Fearabbit, 24 August 2014 - 10:36 AM.


#49
Osvir

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  • Turn Might into Strength. Take out the Magic/Ability Damage. This instantly makes the attribute less interesting for many classes.
  • Add Magic/Ability Damage to Resolve. As said, Resolve is basically Willpower. It's a perfect fit for Magic/Ability Damage and instantly makes this attribute important to a lot of classes - mostly to spellcasters however, for whom this will be the main attribute along with Intellect.
  • Keep Intellect as AoE and Duration modifier. Resolve is a character's intensity, but intellect is his cleverness and allows them to shape their powers to their will. Makes perfect sense and is intuitive.
  • Split Accuracy into Melee Accuracy and Ranged Accuracy. Leave Melee Accuracy in DEX, put Ranged Accuracy into PER. Perception is the attribute for keen sight and aiming. Ranged combat should benefit hugely from it, and this way it does. DEX was never a good fit for ranged accuracy.
  • Add Ranged Reload Speed to DEX and Melee Crits to PER. DEX is however a perfect fit for reload speed, and we can use that to keep it interesting for ranged combatants. PER on the other hand allows melee combatants to see openings and use them. This makes it interesting for them without overpowering it for ranged combat.

 

Soooo...

Just to list them better EDIT: With some additions /EDIT

Strength/Might = +Melee Damage +Negative Status Effect Duration

Constitution = +Health/Stamina +Magic Healing Recieved
Dexterity = +Melee Accuracy +Ranged Reload Speed (Would this affect casting too?)
Perception = +Melee Crit +Ranged/Magic Accuracy +Interrupt
Intelligence = +AoE +Positive Status Effect Duration
Resolve = +Magic Damage +Concentration

So I added an idea myself. Why could Constitution govern healing? Well... I think it'd be more interesting with a mechanic that heals more based on how good shape the characters soul/body is. He'll recieve better healing the better shape he is in.

 

Doesn't Constitution govern how well you defend against poisons and stuff in D&D? That should mean a "Healthier character", and the more Healthy you are, the easier and better it should be to treat you? Right?

My suggestion is to replace "Healing Delivered" with "Healing Recieved".

As it is now:
- Priest Heals more depending on the Priests MIG.

My idea:
- Priest Heals more depending on the Targets CON.

EDIT: I kind of like "Might" as a title though, so I don't see why it should be replaced with "Strength" (as a title). Strength/Might just becomes... very lacking and very bland with only "+Melee Damage". So I added in "Duration of Status Effects" as a suggestion, because that's where I see it make more sense.

A character overpowering poison by sheer physical strength, or breaking free from a "Hold Person" spell etc. or running through an area that is "Entangled". How long your character is knocked down before raising themselves physically, or how long a character is stunned~

EDIT EDIT: Though, I'm just throwing stuff out here to participate in this conversation :p I'm kind of fine with the Attribute system thus far. I'm waiting for more stability before saying anything about the system (this post is me saying stuff about Fearrabbits ideas/system added with some brainstorming) and get a better feel for the system, and to be able to level up a couple of times without bugs.


Edited by Osvir, 24 August 2014 - 11:43 AM.

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#50
Valeris

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We don't want "muscle wizards", no matter how wacky and fun that sounds.

I want muscle wizards.

I am pretty sure many others want that , too.

Not everything has to be as restricted as as DND rulebook from the BG2 Era.


Edited by Valeris, 24 August 2014 - 12:18 PM.

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#51
Infiltrator_SF

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We don't want "muscle wizards", no matter how wacky and fun that sounds.

I want muscle wizards.

I am pretty sure many others want that , too.

Not everything has to be as restricted as as DND rulebook from the BG2 Era.

 

I think very few are opposing muscle wizards - and they were a thing in BG2 too with multi/dual class.

 

The problem is, might wizards should by all means give up something to achieve their goal, which is to fight in melee. You'd think investing in might will give you an edge in hand-to-hand combat but deter you from casting powerful spells.. think again, max might and you not only get strong melee combatants, you also get strong spells. It's unbelievably odd (to put it lightly) that they didn't take a step back when they put this all together and said - "wait, something isn't right here".

 

Unifying melee and spell potency in a single stat is ridiculous. Spells potency should definitely be governed by a cerebral stat, and yes, I know the duration is affected by some of them, but that's beside the point - max might caster will both hit hard and cast the strongest fireball.. who the hell thought that was a good idea?



#52
RedSocialKnight

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I'm certain it's too late to change something so fundamental, but I also agree with OP.

 

For one big reason: the Might stat as it stands limits one of the main stated goals of the PoE attribute system: diversity of character builds.

 

The rolling into one of magic and physical damage makes it impossible to choose between playing a traditional weakling wizard with devastating spells or a wizard with pretty decent lightning bolts who is also pretty decent with a sword when his spells run out or he's backed into a corner.

 

And there is no need to have Might determine magic damage to keep the stat relevant to non-melee classes. Armor is very relevant to every character -- if high-Strength wizards are able to wear heavier armor (and wield heavier weapons), there's a valuable tradeoff between a specialist high-Will wizard and a more defensive, generalist wizard with both decent Will and decent Strength.

 

Josh Sawyer has made a number of jokes in promo videos along the lines of "If you want to play a muscled-up wizard -- now you can!" but he doesn't seem to realize that, if you want high spell damage under the system he's designed, you can only play a muscled-up wizard.


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#53
Valeris

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We don't want "muscle wizards", no matter how wacky and fun that sounds.

I want muscle wizards.

I am pretty sure many others want that , too.

Not everything has to be as restricted as as DND rulebook from the BG2 Era.

 

 

 

The problem is, might wizards should by all means give up something to achieve their goal, which is to fight in melee.

Excuse me, perhaps I am just stupid or something, but..WHY? Why "to fight in melee"? Might has nothing to do with melee combat.



#54
Fearabbit

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I just realized that I'm an idiot regarding the Healing thing.

I thought the description meant that it's about the Healing received, not about the Healing delivered, as Osvir put it.  :facepalm:

 

Gotta admit in that case it doesn't make sense to leave it in Strength, and that also means that my current system has a flaw there because Healing should be in Resolve then, leaving Strength very useless for pure casters.

 

@Osvir, I laughed out loud at "just wanting to participate in the conversation".  :lol: As for putting Healing in CON... well CON is already pretty useful, so that would make it kind of overpowered. And of course actually it's better if Healing is governed by an attribute of the caster, not one by the one who gets the healing. And if Healing is based on percentages of total health, having high health would actually already mean that high CON chars benefit more from it, but I don't know how it works.



#55
RedSocialKnight

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I want muscle wizards.

 

Then you should have them.

 

I like hybrid builds myself. That's not the point.

 

The point is that under the current system, all high-damage wizards are muscle wizards. Which is very odd.


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#56
Valeris

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No, they are not. Because "Might", again, has nothing to do with being a bodybuilder.



#57
Fearabbit

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No, they are not. Because "Might", again, has nothing to do with being a bodybuilder.

 

It has something to do with being better at melee than another caster who put his points into Intellect instead, though.

And this is kind of strange and can be a problem because even wizards are sometimes forced into melee. They've run out of spells or whatever the case may be. So there are two wizards, one does high damage, the other has high AoE. The one that does high damage will also handle himself quite well in melee.

 

There's kind of an explanation for this in that Might is not actually your strength, but a more abstract concept that involves the power of your soul. But this explanation isn't sitting too well with lots of players, and many would prefer a system where physical and mental stats are more clearly divided while also being useful to all classes (which is the design goal of PoE and I have no intention to change that).

 

As for a muscle wizard - I don't have anything against the concept as long as it means that you're actually something like a battle mage, who throws spells from a distance or buffs himself and then switches to sword and shield when the enemy gets closer, for example. Right now the system kind of implies that you're doing magic with your muscles however, similar to (my favorite example) a Kamehameha from Dragonball.

Not saying the latter is completely ridiculous and bad or anything. I'm just saying it's not well-liked by many people and it's the idea they get from this attribute system at the moment.


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#58
RedSocialKnight

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"Might" ... has nothing to do with being a bodybuilder.

 

Might determines magic damage.

 

Might also determines melee damage

 

Might "is used for outright physical bullying and intimidation. E.g. picking people up, smashing things"

 

If Might is supposed to be the might of your soul, then why in character interactions is it used only for tasks of physical strength, while Resolve is used in dialogue to express the force of personality?


Edited by RedSocialKnight, 24 August 2014 - 01:58 PM.

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#59
Valeris

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If Might is supposed to be the might of your soul, then why in character interactions is it used only for tasks of physical strength, while Resolve is used in dialogue to express the force of personality?

 

Because it was obviously names "Strength" in the first place by Obisidian? I am talking semantically here, and semantically speaking: The Expectation that "Might" strictly refers to physical strength only is false. Its simple as that.

I won`t deny that the attribute system needs polishment, yeah, even improvement. But I hardly see a reason why so many people are upset with "might = weapon damage, spell power and healing power", even when there is no connection to maximum carry weight or so.


Edited by Valeris, 24 August 2014 - 02:03 PM.


#60
RedSocialKnight

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 I hardly see a reason why so many people are upset with "might = weapon damage, spell power and healing power"

 

Because it limits character diversity, which was one of the main stated goals of this attribute system.


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