Radical idea - change attributes to more D&D like

[yrm_dm]

While the current system isn't perfect, I still prefer it far over D&D which just promotes min maxing.

 

D&D doesn't require min-maxing... but being able to build effective and different characters in D&D is a huge draw in the game.   Posting most effective builds for odd classes still draws huge interest in Pathfinder forums.   Being able to min-max a class viewed as potentially less effective is a challenge that gamers like to debate and undertake.

 

When all classes and stats are created equal, it takes away the gamer's desire to engineer advantages for themselves.

 

D&D 4.0 saw players leave in droves because every class had roughly the same abilities called different things, but doing roughly the same damage.

 

A rogue might have a swarm of daggers and a mage might have fireball, and neither spell was going to kill a single thing but lightly damage a whole group of things.   It was not fun.

 

What is fun is min-maxing a fireball and clearing a whole room with it that was supposed to be harder... and then running into a room later where creatures might have resistances in the rock-paper-scissors of balancing quests.   It's up to a good GM to mix things up enough so that there are situations which punish the min-max guy.   Maybe the min-max fighter is vulnerable vs charm spells, so that is the session where the balanced cleric character shines.   Or maybe the min-max barbarian isn't good at range, so there's a session where arial foes are attacking a ship, and other sessions where that barbarian chews up everything.   Game design and quest design is the answer to min-maxing... not making all things equal.   Y'know what I mean?

 

Having to grind through fights and not be able to optimize builds takes away from the feeling of empowering the gamer.

[mrmonocle]

I think the problem in the current system is in poor derivative mechanic. Each stat has got one or two derivatives. If it was a grid based 1 major derivative, 1 moderate and 1 minor for each stat, there would be less complaints.

 

Exapmle:

str gives major to damage, moderate to carry wieght, minor to healing

con gives major to health, moderate to healing, minor to carry weight

res gives major to concetration, moderate to health, minor to healing

 

sorry for me bad Engrish, I hope you get the idea.

[Zeckul]

Apart from you not liking the current system and preferring a more "traditional" one, what gameplay advantages would you get from changing the attribute system?

[Ondb]

Apart from you not liking the current system and preferring a more "traditional" one, what gameplay advantages would you get from changing the attribute system?

 

What gameplay advantages the current system has over IE system beside being super balanced?. (which i really don't care in single player RPG)

[Grand_Commander13]

What gameplay advantages the current system has over IE system beside being super balanced?. (which i really don't care in single player RPG)

 

So basically... What is the advantage of the current system with the exception that it's better?

[Ondb]

 

What gameplay advantages the current system has over IE system beside being super balanced?. (which i really don't care in single player RPG)

 

So basically... What is the advantage of the current system with the exception that it's better?

 

 

Oh...i dont think that balanced means better.

[Malekith]

 

 

What gameplay advantages the current system has over IE system beside being super balanced?. (which i really don't care in single player RPG)

 

So basically... What is the advantage of the current system with the exception that it's better?

 

 

Oh...i dont think that balanced means better.

 

Balanced is generaly a virtue, but i believe Sawyer's way to achieve that has some serious trade offs

[Dragoon-]

I love D&D but I want Pillars of Eternity to be unique.

If the game was designed with this system and values in mind than there is no reason to change it. No copycat please.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Dragoon-

[GreyFox]

PE has 2 stats for stun locking...that can't be a good thing.

 

Resolve and Perception appear to need more than a minor tweak.

[Grand_Commander13]

PE has 2 stats for stun locking...that can't be a good thing.

 

... Which two stats? I thought only Perception made you more likely to stun lock someone.

[GreyFox]

 

PE has 2 stats for stun locking...that can't be a good thing.

 

... Which two stats? I thought only Perception made you more likely to stun lock someone.

 

 

Resolve resists stun-lock

 

So there are 2 stats that involve something that shouldn't even be a thing IMO.

[Bli1942]

I think the current system is OK but the description and names are not. Why would a dumb warrior need "Intellect"? That word is defined as cleverness. But in PoE warriors can make great use out of it for AoE and durations. Why would being clever help your warrior AoE? That makes no sense to be called "Intellect" Why would a mage need "Might"? Might often refers to the opposite of magic. They need to change those names, and also elaborate the descriptions so people actually completely understand that EVERY attribute helps EVERY class because at the moment that's still very vague. Might offers 8% healing for no explained reason

 

All in all I like that you don't have to stack attributes for certain classes, but they need a complete rewrite and name of at least half the attributes there

[Grand_Commander13]

Resolve resists stun-lock

Yeah, I kind of guessed that's what you meant. It's just that by that logic, there are two attributes that have to do with damage too.

 

If you don't think interruption should be a thing that's one thing, but it's not like the "this attribute is offensive, this attribute is defensive" paradigm is unique.

[xsubtownerx]

I like the new system. It's different but still familiar which is not an easy thing to accomplish. But Might needs to fixed. I dislike the fact that I need to invest in Might as a Ranger.

[Namutree]

I think the current system is OK but the description and names are not. Why would a dumb warrior need "Intellect"? That word is defined as cleverness. But in PoE warriors can make great use out of it for AoE and durations. Why would being clever help your warrior AoE? 

Complicated fighting techniques require you are smart enough to learn them.

[GreyFox]

 

Resolve resists stun-lock

Yeah, I kind of guessed that's what you meant. It's just that by that logic, there are two attributes that have to do with damage too.

 

If you don't think interruption should be a thing that's one thing, but it's not like the "this attribute is offensive, this attribute is defensive" paradigm is unique.

 

 

Might is the only attribute that directly affects damage.

 

If you want to say Int increases dot duration therefore more damage but that's only for dots.

 

Dex is for accuracy atm so that doesn't increase damage done per hit although it may increase dps.

 

Either way as far as Resolve/Perception go they only exist atm for that interrupt mechanic and some minor dialogue stuff(could just as easily be a skill instead).

 

So I very much am asking the question does this game need an interrupt mechanic?

and if so does it need to be based on Attributes?

 

The fact that most people use those two as dump stats and Obsidian has commented on those....probably has that question answered already.

Edited August 22, 2014 by GreyFox

[Grand_Commander13]

Constitution affects how much of your life you take in damage. If you have twice as much stamina, the percent of your life you take in damage is halved. If you ignore heals, it's mechanically the same as giving you a percent chance not to take damage, or a percent damage reduction.

[GreyFox]

Constitution affects how much of your life you take in damage. If you have twice as much stamina, the percent of your life you take in damage is halved. If you ignore heals, it's mechanically the same as giving you a percent chance not to take damage, or a percent damage reduction.

 

I am pretty sure you are incorrect here or maybe I'm missing what you are trying to say but:  http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Attribute

 

Everyone takes the same % of damage except the Barbarian who goes 1:6 whereas everyone else is taking life damage at 1:4 in relation to stamina.

[Namutree]

I've looked into this issue and I believe I have a simple solution to poe's attribute woes:

 

A) Might should not affect healing rate. Damage and fortitude defense is enough. Right now might is op. This will fix it.

 

B) Resolve should affect healing instead of might. Resolve is both under-powered and not useful enough for every class. This will fix it.

 

C) Perception needs to be given a very minor chance to increase your crit rate. I'd say about +0.25%. This will fix perception.

 

Done. Poe will now have balanced attributes.

[Grand_Commander13]

I am pretty sure you are incorrect here or maybe I'm missing what you are trying to say but:  http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Attribute

 

Everyone takes the same % of damage except the Barbarian who goes 1:6 whereas everyone else is taking life damage at 1:4 in relation to stamina.

What I'm saying is that Constitution and Might interact very similarly to Perception and Resolve: while Resolve allows you to shrug off interrupts entirely, Constitution raises your health pool so that the damage you take matters less.

[GreyFox]

 

I am pretty sure you are incorrect here or maybe I'm missing what you are trying to say but:  http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Attribute

 

Everyone takes the same % of damage except the Barbarian who goes 1:6 whereas everyone else is taking life damage at 1:4 in relation to stamina.

What I'm saying is that Constitution and Might interact very similarly to Perception and Resolve: while Resolve allows you to shrug off interrupts entirely, Constitution raises your health pool so that the damage you take matters less.

 

 

I get what you are saying but its still in the "not really known" category since Might is a small percentage of the damage you take. One of the PE weapons does 11-19 damage...say you have +30% damage on a max damage hit that's 5.7 out of 24.7.

 

Weapon damage/attacks used against you are more important than might since that's where most of the damage you take is coming from. But what's more important with the interrupt mechanic?

 

This is from the Wiki:

 

Interrupts/Concentration

If a character is hit while preforming an action such as casting a spell, attacking an enemy or reloading a weapon his action is interrupted, if he can't maintain his Concentration. If an action is interrupted, it stops. If it's a repeated action like reloading/firing or performing standard attacks, it will restart from the beginning as soon as the interrupt animation finishes. For one-off/special use actions, the action isn't "lost" (meaning you can try using it again) but it will not auto-re-attempt.^[2]

• Concentration: Concentration prevents you from playing hit reactions when you take damage. If you cannot maintain Concentration, you will play a hit reaction and your attack/reload/spell is interrupted.^[3] Concentration is influenced by Resolve.
• Interrupt: If your Interrupt is high you will stop the enemies actions if you hit them more often. Each weapon/attack have a base interrupt value and attacks that have high rates of fire (like wands and spell missiles) or area of effect abilities have low base Interrupt values. But there are exceptions, Firearms have relatively low base Interrupt (and high damage) and Thrust of Tattered Veils has a high base Interrupt (but does very little damage).^[4][5][6] Interrupt is influenced by Perception.

 

So really we don't know exactly how Perception and Resolve work since apparently weapons have an interrupt value....how does this factor in when one stat benefits(or suffers) from an item as well?

For example how does it go when you max Perception but use a crappy "interrupt value" weapon....you've trained or specialized in interrupts but yet your weapon can't/won't get the job done? Just doesn't seem like a well fleshed out stat/mechanic to me.

Like shouldn't the stat fully determine interrupts if we're going that route? or Should the weapon/armor system determine interrupts(ie Poise from Dark Souls). Or another system altogether...

[Fluffle]

We don't even have feedback yet in the combat log when interrupts take place.

And if they succed or if they don't.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Fluffle

[The Guilty Party]

I'm not saying the current system doesn't need tweaks, but just because something is not D&D does not make it bad. It's new, it's something you have to learn as opposed to having it already known, but change can be a good thing.

 

Plus D&D stats were never particularly balanced or sensible, it's just inertia that has kept them around, imho.

[orangeauto281]

I like the new system but agree it needs tweaks

 

It actually encourages roleplaying a character instead of min maxing. I never understood the fun of min-maxing in a single player game...

 

Plus the convo system and scripted interactions adds even more reasons for diverse builds which the system encourages.

[Bli1942]

I like that it's broad it just needs clarification that it's that broad by way of less specific attribute names. The attributes all work great for any class, but especially "might" and "intellect" sound as if they are way too specific to warriors then mages respectively even though they aren't. Something like "power" instead of "might" would work. Perhaps "technique" instead of "intellect" as that is fairly broad, sounding as if it would help with any skill instead of just brains-related skills

 

To be honest it's not a huge problem if people read the stats thoroughly as well as don't go in with the typical D&D stats in their head, but the problem is not everyone does that and people are definitely going to stack might for a warrior or intellect for a mage still, with those current names

Edited August 22, 2014 by Bli1942