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No experience from combat

experience combat leveling quests

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#41
Amentep

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Taking away experience rewards from enemies just seems like it will leave the combat a bit unrewarding.

 
Wouldn't the dropped loot from the bodies be the reward?

No, because Obsidian doesn't want to deprive the pacifists of good loot.
 
Some of it is helpful (for crafting), but it is more the exception than the rule.


That need not be mutually exclusive concept, IMO.

#42
Helm

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As it stands, combat is almost completely optional.


 

 

As it stands, it's near impossible to sneak through a map without aggroing stuff, and encounters at normal difficulty and higher definitely hurt.

 

Really? The NPCs act like they are blind when you are sneaking.

 

Anyway, I said almost completely optional. You will still have to fight a few enemies and... receive a fist full of nothing as a reward.



#43
Ell

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In general, I like the idea of discouraging munchkin-ish way of playing.

 

However, I would not go that far. I'd prefer that the players were still given some nominal amount of XP for the battles, simply because it's logical - when you participate in fights, you become a better fighter.



#44
Stun

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It pigeon holes players into playing one specific way. What if players don't want to do many quests? The only way to play if you want to get anywhere is by questing now. There's no just going out and adventuring around killing things as a form of progression.

Well, no.  This isn't Diablo.  If you don't want to do quests, this is probably not the right game for you.

Apparently this isn't Baldurs Gate 1, Planescape Torment, Icewind Dale, Baldurs Gate 2, or Icewind Dale 2 either. It's not even their spiritual successor.

All those games had Combat XP and quest/objective XP. And they all gave players the opportunity to quest or not-quest for XP. And they were good enough to be name-dropped by Obsidian in order to attract backers for PoE's kickstarter funding.

But lets cut the naivety. Obsidian (read: Josh Sawyer) did NOT decide to scrap Kill XP because he thought doing so would make the game more fun. He scrapped Kill XP because it takes FAR less work, and FAR less number-crunching to balance a game when you can simply hand-place and lump-sum all the XP rewards from act 1 to act 3 and create a rigid, tightly controlled level advancement from beginning for the sake of convenience.

Edited by Stun, 19 August 2014 - 08:43 AM.


#45
sparklecat

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The IE games had a lot of other things that PoE doesn't, and vice versa!  That does not mean it suddenly loses all similarity to them.

 

And no.  Unless all the quests are mandatory, which they are not, you are still going to have people progressing at different paces and reaching levels at different points, and you still need to balance for the range of possibilities.  As has been pointed out previously.  Your hypothesis on why this system was chosen is, quite frankly, terrible.


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#46
bob54386

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The lion area, sure it's easy to sneak around lions and druids.  I was able to get past the beetles and all but one wolf on the way towards the ogre area on normal difficulty.

 

Actually get into the dungeon, and this is the kind of stuff you have to put up with.  Yellow area makes mobs start walking towards you.  Get the mob's purple circle on top of your character's green circle and combat's initiated.  Photo below could easily turn into a party wipe if you were trying to sneak through it.  Can probably get to a courier to help advance the noble's daughter storyline without killing anything.  Definitely need to smash some spiders in order to get to the ogre.

http://s397.photobuc..._00003.jpg.html


Edited by bob54386, 19 August 2014 - 08:48 AM.

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#47
Stun

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What?

 
A large part of this game is killing creatures.

Yes.  So?  I'm killing them because they're between me and where I need to go, because they attacked me first, etc.  Not because I get some reward for doing so in XP or items.  A roleplaying reward, if you will

That's a Larping reward, not a roleplaying reward. The game mechanics will not recognize that you killed those creatures. You may as well have just soloed the game and rushed past them.

Edit: besides, I didn't explore what's-it-called Gorge because I needed to go there for some quest. I explored it because it was there to be explored. Yet not even exploration in this game yields Xp.

But this misses the point. PoE looks like it will easily be just as combat heavy as the baldurs gate games. Which menas you're not going to be tangibly rewarded for something you have to do for 80% of the friggin game.

By definition, that makes gameplay mostly POINTLESS.

Edited by Stun, 19 August 2014 - 09:02 AM.

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#48
sparklecat

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What?

 
A large part of this game is killing creatures.

 

Yes.  So?  I'm killing them because they're between me and where I need to go, because they attacked me first, etc.  Not because I get some reward for doing so in XP or items.  A roleplaying reward, if you will

 

That's a Larping reward, not a roleplaying reward. The game mechanics will not recognize that you killed those creatures. You may as well have just rushed past them, or cast invisibility and strolled past them.

 

I'm not really sure what you think roleplaying is, in that case.



#49
bob54386

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It pigeon holes players into playing one specific way. What if players don't want to do many quests? The only way to play if you want to get anywhere is by questing now. There's no just going out and adventuring around killing things as a form of progression.

Well, no.  This isn't Diablo.  If you don't want to do quests, this is probably not the right game for you.

 

Apparently this isn't Baldurs Gate 1, Planescape Torment, Icewind Dale, Baldurs Gate 2, or Icewind Dale 2 either. It's not even their spiritual successor.

All those games had Combat XP and quest/objective XP. And they all gave players the opportunity to quest or not-quest for XP. And they were good enough to be name-dropped by Obsidian in order to attract backers for PoE's kickstarter funding.

But lets cut the naivety. Obsidian (read: Josh Sawyer) did NOT decide to scrap Kill XP because he thought doing so would make the game more fun. He scrapped Kill XP because it takes FAR less work, and FAR less number-crunching to balance a game when you can simply hand-place and lump-sum all the XP rewards from act 1 to act 3 and create a rigid, tightly controlled level advancement from beginning for the sake of convenience.

 

One thing a lack of kill XP does add -- this beta is the first time I've played an RPG and thought about NOT killing all the things at the end of the quest.  In BG or BG2 I wouldn't have given it a second thought.  In my mind this system is undoubtedly superior from a role-playing perspective.

 

From a rewards perspective, I think they need to make loot a little more compelling -- the spiders in my picture above don't drop anything good, and they can easily wipe my party.  I saw the argument that they 'don't want to deprive pacifists of good loot', but that begs the question: 'why does a pacifist need a +5 sword of murder?'


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#50
Tartantyco

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That's a Larping reward, not a roleplaying reward. The game mechanics will not recognize that you killed those creatures. You may as well have just soloed the game and rushed past them.

 

 

Stun, LARP stands for Live Action Role Playing. That's people who play a roleplaying game in person. It has absolutely no relevance to the discussion here, so just stop abusing terms you don't even understand.


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#51
Waywocket

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 this beta is the first time I've played an RPG and thought about NOT killing all the things at the end of the quest. 

 

Seriously? This is a thing that people actually did?



#52
Stun

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Stun, LARP stands for Live Action Role Playing. That's people who play a roleplaying game in person. It has absolutely no relevance to the discussion here, so just stop abusing terms you don't even understand.

In cRPG larping is pointless stuff you do for RP purposes that the game mechanics don't recognize. Like making sure your character eats 3 meals a day when you're playing skyrim. or dropping gold and weapons in front of a Talos shrine.

It's meaningless "pretend" crap.

Edited by Stun, 19 August 2014 - 09:10 AM.


#53
Forlorn Hope

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Yes... I kind of miss combat XP... But in all fairness, I sometimes forget that I am not being rewarded for the combat and still enjoy fighting monsters etc. However, maybe I'd prefer combat XP.



#54
bob54386

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 this beta is the first time I've played an RPG and thought about NOT killing all the things at the end of the quest. 

 

Seriously? This is a thing that people actually did?

 

I mean, I never thought twice about jumping on top of a Koopa.  Heck, I'll probably just kill all the things in this game as well -- I guess I'm usually looking for the tactical challenge and phat loots.  But at the very least I need to figure out who to kill in some situations -- can't kill both medred and Nyfre to get XP.  choices.



#55
Wintersong

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As I understand they've said they just want combat to be for the fun of it. Taking away experience rewards from enemies just seems like it will leave the combat a bit unrewarding. I feel like I will skip even trying to get in fights because there's not much benefit and mostly detriment. You risk your characters getting hurt/knocked out/killed for what, beating enemies juts for the fun of it? There's always a balance of risk vs. reward in these kinds of games and it seems that balance has been upset.
 
Sure some enemies may drop items, but that'll be the only reward of combat? I think it's a mistake for them not to give any exp. Perhaps cutting the exp gains from enemies down so that you don't gain a ton, but none? That means the only point of the game is to just grind through quests as fast as you can with no reason to kill enemies and skip all unnecessary stuff.
 
It pigeon holes players into playing one specific way. What if players don't want to do many quests? The only way to play if you want to get anywhere is by questing now. There's no just going out and adventuring around killing things as a form of progression.
 
Let's face it, players want to be rewarded and they want to get that reward via the fastest means possible. That means is going to be skipping unnecessary combat and leaves combat in general feeling like a chore that you must do along the path to grinding out these quests.
 
I haven't played the beta myself so this is just as I understand it from what I've heard and read. Just wanted to get my thoughts out about this.

To a point it sounds like playing a MMORPG, where instead of doing the quests, you just grind your way up. Which considering how many quests are done in MMORPGs, I cannot blame players for it (I do like grinding too sometimes).
 
If the game is well designed, you should get enough exp to complete the game just by doing the main line of quests. And I guess that those are mandatory to trigger different areas/stuff/final_dudeboss.
 

It disincentivizes exploration and combat for me. I know I'm better off waiting until I have a quest for tackling an area before actually going out and tackling it. 
I also know that with the exception of named NPC's there isn't any reason not to bypass random encounters with beatles/animals/etc because I'm not going to be rewarded even slightly for it. 
 
With no exp rewarded for encounters it's less rewarding to stray from the critical/quest path and do your own thing.
I doesn't have to be a lot either.  Even minimal exp can make a big difference.

Is "your own thing" just level-ups? Because if you don't go to an area just to explore it or to do a quest in it, why else go there? It's true that you may want to explore an area searching for "treasure", "epic shoopeker" or who knows what. Then, dealing with "wildlife" is the previous step to enjoying such reward. If the area has no quests in it (rare), in any case it should contain "valuables" worth the effort of going there and dealing with whatever is there (exp or not). Our main reason to explore should be tangible stuff and not exp.
 
I think that it's ok that "random" encounters not offer nothing but loot. That should be their only reason of existence. Optionals, more of the same. Unless you are collecting wolf pelts or roleplay a wolf hater, willingly jumping into a random wolf encounter doesn't make much sense. Unless you just do it for the fun of playing a combat!!! Or maybe failed to sneak... :p
 
Don't get me wrong. I like leveling up. It sucks when an RPG system puts the nice goodies up in the high levels and one cannot wait to reach them to finally have a functional character as one wants it to be. And leveling up also gives a sense of progression (which games like Oblivion send to hell by scaling up stuff).
 
If you hit max level in a game and there are still areas to explore, do you stop exploring because you gain no exp from the monsters? Or stop doing quests?
 
------

Even D&D says how exp can be given in different ways and killing stuff is just one... which can be optional. Beating an encounter is the basic way. A trap? You can get exp by disarming it... or by finding a way to bypass it. Sleeping ogre at the door? Exp for killing it or just by sneaking without waking him up. Even it's mentioned as an alternative to only give exp for quest completed (taking into account all the encounters in it, of course).
 
Makes sense? Yes, it does. Allocating exps in the monsters, only incentivates unnecesary violence. As much as special treasure tables for them. :p So if you just want loot, it'll be always be there is some form. And focusing the exp in the quests, makes you focus on which should be really important. Killing stuff is important in games like Torchlight or Diablo (and the LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!!11!1!!!1) and while games like this or BG are combat centric, they are not ARPGs and don't need to emulate them. No one forbids you to have fun killing non quest monsters, it only encourages you to do it just for fun.

-----

My first character talks with dude outside village. Talks with woman inside village. Kills woman to save time. Talks with man outside village. Kills man because of stuff said. Gets loot from both but no exp.

My next character talks with dude outside the village. Talks with woman inside the village. Cooperates with her. Talks with man outside village. Kills man. Gets loot only from the dude and also get almost enough exp to go from level 5 to 6.

Fair? I see no problem there.


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#56
Kinthalis

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My own take on this is that I'm ok with it, but that I think a better solution would be to simply award a higher amount of XP for non-combat solutions to a problem, and have the quest line be smart enough to know that you went and killed the Ogre anyway, so now the XP bonus for talking our way out is removed.

 

I don't know how feasable that would be though. Sounds like an extra layer of complexity on an already complex system.



#57
fruiteater

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So i actually didnt thin this would be such a hot topic, but after reading through this thread (and some of the other threads) i have to ask: is the sole purpose of playing an RPG the accumulation of experince points? because the more that i read this less i see interesting disscussion of pro´s and con´s of both systems and more "if i dont get xp for it, it invalidates me doing it so i should not even bother with it". I dont really get it.


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#58
Qiushui

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I'm not entirely decided on which way is best though I am leaning toward the system as it currently stands, possibly with a few other small ways to gain exp such as exploration (which will encourage you to get through trash mobs even with no kill exp because you will have to pass by them / kill them etc. to explore everything)

 

Hell, even with the current system there IS incentive to get by / kill trash mobs, how do you know that there isn't a quest giver, or any other number of good things,  waiting on the other side??

 

The idea that every little thing you do in the game should give you exp, just because this is an RPG, is silly. Do you get exp for saving the princess in Super Mario World? No, you do it because it's fun. This isn't some MMO / Competitive online game, you don't need a reward for every little thing you do. You can actually just enjoy playing the game.

 

Do you do combat because you get exp or because it's fun? In a game that is actually good, it would be because of the latter. The former is called grinding, nobody wants that, I hope.


Edited by Qiushui, 19 August 2014 - 11:03 AM.

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#59
Volourn

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XP is about rewading the player for overcoming challenges, role-playing, quest compeltion, and C&C.

 

And, claiming that giving combat xp is rewarding 'deriative behaviour' insults PE since PE wants you to fight. It's largely focused on combat. All characters are based on combat. Not getting xp for combat (not neccessarily xp per kill or non hostile characters) is silly.

 

This isn't SRR where it works.

 

Again, XP is about rewarding the player. That's where it fails in this game (beta). Period.

 

 

 

"- go kill the ogre and see."

 

I did. No xp.


Edited by Volourn, 19 August 2014 - 11:22 AM.

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#60
Stun

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The idea that every little thing you do in the game should give you exp, just because this is an RPG, is silly.

I don't think too many people here are advocating that we should get rewarded for every little thing we do. They're merely asking to be rewarded for engaging in combat, which in a combat centric RPG, cannot be considered a "little thing".
 

Do you get exp for saving the princess in Super Mario World? No

If PoE was being advertised as the spiritual successor to Super Mario World, that would be an impregnable argument. It's not though. This game was *created* to be all about the IE game Nostalgia. To quote Josh Sawyer, it's supposed to make you feel like you are "coming home again". Bottom line: The IE games rewarded XP for killing and questing. Quest XP and Kill XP was *fundamental* in those games. It should have been in PoE as well.

Edited by Stun, 19 August 2014 - 11:35 AM.

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