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Dialogue Options Don't Really Do Anything

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#41
Namutree

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Ability Scores are cool and should stay. You guys are nuts.


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#42
Luckmann

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Ability Scores are cool and should stay. You guys are nuts.

 

It is the egalitarian way. Everyone is created equal. Death to ability scores.

Spoiler


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#43
Bazy

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All that said, if you find that some interaction really forces you to metagame to get the option you want, and requires you to act out-of-character, that's a serious narrative issue, so go ahead and report that as a bug. 

 

 

The main metagaming issue I have is that personality is a part of combat stats in such a way that it is very sub-par to take or not take Perception/Int/Resolve on some classes. I would've preferred personality traits be a bit more separate so that class choice doesn't dictate so much of my character's personality, if I want to build that class to be effective at the role I want anyway.

 

For example, if I am playing most caster classes there is very little reason to choose perception currently. It doesn't do anything that substantially improves those classes for their role outside of niche sub-par builds like a Skaen dual wielder.

 

Resolve is also a bit of a dud. All of my Druid, Cipher, Priest, Wizard builds right now have high Might, Intellect, and middling Dexterity. I knock a few points off Constitution, Perception, Resolve to achieve this. If I play any of these as my main I worry my character will be penalized in dialogue for being imperceptive and weak willed when those aren't necessarily aligning with the personality I'd want to play.

 

Right now the attribute effects don't feel that sensibly matched to their name anyway, if feels a bit like having the me attributes define combat capability and mental state was arbitrarily carried over from DnD.

 

 

Probably too late now I would've rather have something like a separate set of dialogue/personality-based strength/weaknesses and neutral ones with pro/cons, while for combat I'd be fine just picking increased AoE, duration, damage without them being packaged into attributes.

 

Agreed. But for now I give the attributes to my main that I would want its personality to have and just suck up the consequences. 



#44
Odd Hermit

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^ I agree, but what do you expect to occur without completely separating combat stats from non-combat stats?

I mean, you could do that, but then, how do you have checks for something like Strength or Dexterity? Do you have combat Dexterity, then non-combat Dexterity?

As a Wizard in D&D, I always enjoyed having pretty decent Strength, so that when we got into a bind and the Fighter or typical brute-force person was out cold, I could be surprisingly helpful by lifting debris, moving things, etc. It didn't really help me in combat much, so it was, in that context, a non-combat stat for me.

I'm just not sure how to design a stat system in which you don't have to give up a "roleplaying" (for lack of a better term) character aspect for sheer combat effectiveness at some point, or vice versa. You can't have EXCELLENT eyesight, but also be highly inaccurate in a fight. You can have high Perception and low Strength, but you can't be only-combat-good at something, while being non-combat terrible at it.

*shrug*. I guess this is where skills come in handy. You can be strong, but have absolutely no skill with a weapon whatsoever. Boom. You've got combat effectiveness potential, but the stat itself doesn't really lend itself to either combat or non-combat. That might be the best way to go. The stat is raw potential, and the skill is applied potential. As in, you could have amazing Perception, but that doesn't let you track an animal or aim a bow at a guy 100 yards away. You still need skill with tracking, and with archery.

 

Thing is, it's not a PnP game it's a CRPG. They can't create enough use for oddball uses for every attribute outside of combat. And it's harder to get into roleplaying a flawed character since a video game just isn't as open and flexible. You enter combat frequently and you're going to be at a noticeable disadvantage without necessarily having the means to counteract that whether it's leveling slowly on lower level / easier things or acquiring enough currency to buy gear to make up for an inefficient build.

 

And I would say you definitely could have excellent eyesight and be inaccurate in a fight. But arguing over such specifics isn't the point. What the attributes do right now could easily just be given to us unpackaged without the labels - you want longer durations? spend points on duration. Doesn't need to make your character have high intellect. Then we could indeed pick something like skills to apply to dialogues and other checks.

 

It's probably not going to happen, I just see it as a more ideal system. I'm not feeling the attributes thing, they're muddled, tangled up with skills, and somewhat inconsistent feeling.



#45
Gairnulf

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- I would urge any player to really roleplay his or her character. It's not something I can enforce on my end so much as encourage, but I would want players to choose options based on how they think and what they would say. There are a number of other systems choices we've made here (personality rep and background come to mind, as well as our companion interactions) to try to help the player to develop a character over the course of the story rather than to just play some empty, static avatar. Hopefully it gives a little more meaning to the overall experience.

All that said, if you find that some interaction really forces you to metagame to get the option you want, and requires you to act out-of-character, that's a serious narrative issue, so go ahead and report that as a bug.

Well, what you say here and what I heard from Josh in the interview on twitch, reminded me of the following question I had - in the twitch stream I heard that dialogue with a temporary npc I will have in the beginning of the game is used to set up my character's biography prior to the beginning of the events in the game. Back when I watched the Jesse Cox stream, where this dialogue was shown, I thought that I would rather not be completely honest about my past with a stranger. Yesterday I learned that if I had roleplayed in this way, this would have set up a biography I actually don't want my character to have. I know this isn't an issue now that I know about it, and also that I should bear the need to be honest with an npc I will have only for a short time (a fact which an unprepared player would not know on his first playthrough), but it's still a conflict between roleplaying and game mechanics requirements.

Edited by Gairnulf, 21 March 2015 - 03:30 PM.

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#46
Bazy

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- I would urge any player to really roleplay his or her character. It's not something I can enforce on my end so much as encourage, but I would want players to choose options based on how they think and what they would say. There are a number of other systems choices we've made here (personality rep and background come to mind, as well as our companion interactions) to try to help the player to develop a character over the course of the story rather than to just play some empty, static avatar. Hopefully it gives a little more meaning to the overall experience.
 
All that said, if you find that some interaction really forces you to metagame to get the option you want, and requires you to act out-of-character, that's a serious narrative issue, so go ahead and report that as a bug.


Well, what you say here and what I heard from Josh in the interview on twitch, reminded me of the following question I had - in the twotch stream I heard that dialogue with a temporary npc I will have in the beginning of the game is used to set up my character's biography prior to the beginning of the events in the game. Back when I watched the Jesse Cox stream, where this dialogue was shown, I thought that I would rather not be completely honest about my past with a stranger. Yesterday I learned that if I had roleplayed in this way, this would have set up a biography I actually don't want my character to have. I know this isn't an issue now that I know about it, and also that I should bear the need to be honest with an npc I will have only for a short time (a fact which an unprepared player would not know on his first playthrough), but it's still a conflict between roleplaying and game mechanics requirements.

 

Agreed. I find what how they interpret my answer to not be what I had in mind for my character. I don't see why they don't just keep the blank slate. 



#47
Heijoushin

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- I would urge any player to really roleplay his or her character. It's not something I can enforce on my end so much as encourage, but I would want players to choose options based on how they think and what they would say. There are a number of other systems choices we've made here (personality rep and background come to mind, as well as our companion interactions) to try to help the player to develop a character over the course of the story rather than to just play some empty, static avatar. Hopefully it gives a little more meaning to the overall experience.

All that said, if you find that some interaction really forces you to metagame to get the option you want, and requires you to act out-of-character, that's a serious narrative issue, so go ahead and report that as a bug.

Well, what you say here and what I heard from Josh in the interview on twitch, reminded me of the following question I had - in the twitch stream I heard that dialogue with a temporary npc I will have in the beginning of the game is used to set up my character's biography prior to the beginning of the events in the game. Back when I watched the Jesse Cox stream, where this dialogue was shown, I thought that I would rather not be completely honest about my past with a stranger. Yesterday I learned that if I had roleplayed in this way, this would have set up a biography I actually don't want my character to have. I know this isn't an issue now that I know about it, and also that I should bear the need to be honest with an npc I will have only for a short time (a fact which an unprepared player would not know on his first playthrough), but it's still a conflict between roleplaying and game mechanics requirements.

 

 

That's a good point. You have to be a super honest chap for the purpose of creating your biography? It would be kind of ironic if you wanted to roleplay a mysterious, shady thief type...

 

But I guess when you straight out lie in these games, it usually literally says "lie" in brackets... everything else we must accept as the truth.


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#48
Katarack21

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- I would urge any player to really roleplay his or her character. It's not something I can enforce on my end so much as encourage, but I would want players to choose options based on how they think and what they would say. There are a number of other systems choices we've made here (personality rep and background come to mind, as well as our companion interactions) to try to help the player to develop a character over the course of the story rather than to just play some empty, static avatar. Hopefully it gives a little more meaning to the overall experience.

All that said, if you find that some interaction really forces you to metagame to get the option you want, and requires you to act out-of-character, that's a serious narrative issue, so go ahead and report that as a bug.

Well, what you say here and what I heard from Josh in the interview on twitch, reminded me of the following question I had - in the twitch stream I heard that dialogue with a temporary npc I will have in the beginning of the game is used to set up my character's biography prior to the beginning of the events in the game. Back when I watched the Jesse Cox stream, where this dialogue was shown, I thought that I would rather not be completely honest about my past with a stranger. Yesterday I learned that if I had roleplayed in this way, this would have set up a biography I actually don't want my character to have. I know this isn't an issue now that I know about it, and also that I should bear the need to be honest with an npc I will have only for a short time (a fact which an unprepared player would not know on his first playthrough), but it's still a conflict between roleplaying and game mechanics requirements.

 

 

That's a good point. You have to be a super honest chap for the purpose of creating your biography? It would be kind of ironic if you wanted to roleplay a mysterious, shady thief type...

 

But I guess when you straight out lie in these games, it usually literally says "lie" in brackets... everything else we must accept as the truth.

 

I was thinking about playing a former slave who is running from their past--my idea was to refuse to discuss my slave past during the biography, answer the other questions honestly, and slowly reveal my past to my companions over time as I'm forced to confront various issues and concepts over the course of the game. Now that I saw the stream the other day, I'm not sure any more if this is a viable roleplaying path.


Edited by Katarack21, 21 March 2015 - 10:49 PM.

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#49
Hassat Hunter

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Oh, the days that I spend an hour or 2 writing IWD character biographies no one reads and no-one cares about...

 

And yeah, ability scores, skill scores and whatever the hell else scores are awesome. I want my build to matter in dialogues too, dammit.







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