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Macrae

What character/attributes to choose for role-playing?

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In old IE games when you wanted to create a character with whom you could really role-play your way out of situations and unlock special dialogue options that made the story deeper you just had to pump charisma up.

 

That of course gave you a weaker character in many situations as for many classes charisma was a dump stat. So basically some roles were more appropriate to become a role-playing character and this in some way forced you into making certain choices if you wanted to role-play.

 

Now in PoE, because the focus has been put on giving us the chance to have all kinds of viable character types a real question is:


If you want to have a role-playing-heavy character which attributes should you concentrate on?

 

At first glance it seems that, out of the 6 attributes, the most important one will be intelligence for obvious reasons, then maybe perception, which apparently permits you to open-up new dialogues through noticing some details. Might and dexterity could be useful in some instances requiring a skill-check action. Resolve is a tricky one, it says it's basically a leadership skill but will that influence any interactions? It seems like an important one anyway. And finally constitution is the obvious dumb stat here....(or is it? ;))

Also, from what we can see from the latest gameplay vids, it seems that usually an attribute has to be around 14 to be able to enable certain options in interactions...

Here's an attribute distribution I'm thinking about (for now) for a role-playing oriented char (total should be 71):

Might: 8

Constitution: 7

Dexterity: 14
Perception: 14
Intellect: 14
Resolve: 14

 

So basically if you dump constitution and another sacrificed attribute you can pump all the rest of them...but of course one wonders if there is indeed a such a threshold as 14, and if it is interesting to have an attribute higher for example. But it seems you can basically get a "smart" character if you dump the "physical" attributes..

 

According to that, an "ideal" class it seems (at least for now) would be a non-combat oriented character, so the obvious, number one choice, would be chanter in my opinion, then priest/wizard/cipher, then it's a little more tricky..

So for now, although I'm not really complaining about this, it seems that the basic rule of intelligent-oriented characters being better role-playing characters is still valid. But for the definitive answer we have to wait for the game to release, it will all depend on what skills each class has, because this will make an intellect build viable or not. I would love to have an Aragorn-like rogue role-player who could use his intellect to pump one of his skills up in combat..

Edited by Macrae

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Uh well all characters are heavy role playing characters.  Role playing isn't about having high charisma and being a political dynamo, it is about making a character then making decisions and taking actions based on how that character would handle those situations.  Your character can be a mentally stunted dumb oaf who wears a trash bag for clothes and still be a "role play" character.

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I understand the general approach is to tie all attributes to suitable role-playing (dialog) options. Wanna be a mean intimidating brute? Pump Might. Wanna reason your way of situations? Intelligence. Figure out people's motivations and play upon them? Perception. Impress them with the strength of your personality? Willpower. And so on. There isn't any one stat that covers all social situations anymore, which is a very good thing IMO -- it always bothered me that a big, mean, ugly brute of a fighter was at a disadvantage in Intimidate if he had dumped CHA.

 

(I used to houserule this, by the way: I allowed low-CHA brutes to flip the sign on their CHA modifier for Intimidate.)

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Bumping CHA wasn't even really the solution in the old infinity engine games anyway. The Baldur's Gate games had barely any stat-gated dialogue, and little of it was charisma dependent. Planescape had some CHA stuff sure, but WIS undoubtedly unlocked the most content, followed by INT. Maybe Icewind Dale 2 had some? I don't really remember, but it was a dungeon crawler, so I doubt it was that significant even if it were present.

 

I'd suspect that might will get more use than you'd think. Probably a lot of Might oriented intimidation options. Plus, don't forget the scripted interactions! While conversations will probably, as you suggest, generally favour "mental" stats, the scripted interactions will probably favour physical ones. 

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In Planescape Torment, when you wanted to create a character with whom you could really role-play your way out of situations you had to be a wizard.

 

Fixed.

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Uh well all characters are heavy role playing characters.  Role playing isn't about having high charisma and being a political dynamo, it is about making a character then making decisions and taking actions based on how that character would handle those situations.  Your character can be a mentally stunted dumb oaf who wears a trash bag for clothes and still be a "role play" character.

 

In role-playing games the numbers are a part of the process. They are what you use to define what your character is, what they are capable of. They're the limiter that says, "Your character is this" and not, "Whatever I want it to be at any given time." A Charisma score exists in lower, moderate or high portions to define certain forms of social capability, while a Strength or Constitution score can enhance such concepts. You may be a big brute, but that's pure intimidation, but a charismatic, well toned (Str) and healthy (Con) character is going to have visual aspects to back up their social abilities. Not that one needs such things, you can be a smooth talker, but otherwise overweight and wimpy.

 

The numbers are an intricate part of role-playing, they are your character - they're a portion of what makes that character, 'them' and not 'you' . . .you are capable of all manner of things, but, in a role-playing game, you're trying to apply what you know within the limitations of who your character is and what they're capable of. Hence the numbers helping define who they are, and what they're capable of. Sure, you can write up a background, but if the numbers don't support that background it's faulty - the numbers, in this sense, matter more than what you imagine, because they're giving you context for what is possible to imagine, keeping the game fair and assisting in the endevour that keeps characters from devolving into, "I'm an immortal and invulnderable half demon, half angel, half vampire, half werewolf pirate ninja demon slayer king paladin blackguard!"

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Since Might is king of all (dps, healing, Fortitude, pack space) then I will likely pump that across all classes. Following that I will simply choose whichever secondary stat applies to the classes and increase that. Everything else will likely stay at baseline.


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perception, intellect and resolve will possibly be dialogue heavy.


Remember: Argue the point, not the person. Remain polite and constructive. Friendly forums have friendly debate. There's no shame in being wrong. If you don't have something to add, don't post for the sake of it. And don't be afraid to post thoughts you are uncertain about, that's what discussion is for.
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Pet threads, everyone has them. I love imagining Gods, Monsters, Factions and Weapons.

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Since Might is king of all (dps, healing, Fortitude, pack space) then I will likely pump that across all classes. Following that I will simply choose whichever secondary stat applies to the classes and increase that. Everything else will likely stay at baseline.

So might, not dex, is the DPS primary stat for rogues and rangers as well as the conventional heavy hitters?

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Since Might is king of all (dps, healing, Fortitude, pack space) then I will likely pump that across all classes. Following that I will simply choose whichever secondary stat applies to the classes and increase that. Everything else will likely stay at baseline.

So might, not dex, is the DPS primary stat for rogues and rangers as well as the conventional heavy hitters?

Might governs healing, damage, and carrying capacity for all classes. However, AoE and durations on effects are governed by Intellect. Dexterity increases accuracy, and thus will decrease grazes and increase full hits and crits if I am not mistaken. While Intellect increase AoE and Duration. So, dexterity and intellect could be a DPS gain with the right class, skill set, play style, and/or situational uses.

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Would be nice if "dumb" races had some race-bound dialogue options and scenario branches, the same with "dumb" classes ("dumb" meaning "is mechanically ineffective to raise intellect/perception high for that one").

 

Also,

(I used to houserule this, by the way: I allowed low-CHA brutes to flip the sign on their CHA modifier for Intimidate.)

 

Doesn't seem like a good idea to me, either for the game balance (making negative modifier a positive thing isn't a good idea and can be abused) or for the meaning of CHA stat. CHA means force of personality, it is not beautiful/ugly axis. To substitute STR for CHA is a recommended way for such situation.

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I'm gonna go with Perception and Resolve for my first character, I believe. I want a witty leader and that seems to be the way to go.

But I wouldn't worry about it too much. It seems like they actually made sure that each attribute gets some action outside of combat, so it's gonna be great fun to toy around with different builds and see what options become available.

 

I'll definitely avoid trying to get all possible options for one character. It's more interesting to have weaknesses as well.

 

 

 

Uh well all characters are heavy role playing characters.  Role playing isn't about having high charisma and being a political dynamo, it is about making a character then making decisions and taking actions based on how that character would handle those situations.  Your character can be a mentally stunted dumb oaf who wears a trash bag for clothes and still be a "role play" character.

 

In role-playing games the numbers are a part of the process. They are what you use to define what your character is, what they are capable of. They're the limiter that says, "Your character is this" and not, "Whatever I want it to be at any given time." A Charisma score exists in lower, moderate or high portions to define certain forms of social capability, while a Strength or Constitution score can enhance such concepts. You may be a big brute, but that's pure intimidation, but a charismatic, well toned (Str) and healthy (Con) character is going to have visual aspects to back up their social abilities. Not that one needs such things, you can be a smooth talker, but otherwise overweight and wimpy.

 

The numbers are an intricate part of role-playing, they are your character - they're a portion of what makes that character, 'them' and not 'you' . . .you are capable of all manner of things, but, in a role-playing game, you're trying to apply what you know within the limitations of who your character is and what they're capable of. Hence the numbers helping define who they are, and what they're capable of. Sure, you can write up a background, but if the numbers don't support that background it's faulty - the numbers, in this sense, matter more than what you imagine, because they're giving you context for what is possible to imagine, keeping the game fair and assisting in the endevour that keeps characters from devolving into, "I'm an immortal and invulnderable half demon, half angel, half vampire, half werewolf pirate ninja demon slayer king paladin blackguard!"

 

 

Your point? Karkarov said every character is a role-playing character, no matter how high/low the attributes are. Your post does not address that at all. (It reads as if Karkarov had said "attributes don't make a character, your ability to roleplay does", which he didn't say.)

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The numbers are an intricate part of role-playing, they are your character - they're a portion of what makes that character, 'them' and not 'you' . . .you are capable of all manner of things, but, in a role-playing game, you're trying to apply what you know within the limitations of who your character is and what they're capable of. Hence the numbers helping define who they are, and what they're capable of.

I think you have that backwards.  You create a character, then you assign stats to suit the character you are creating.  It has been over a decade since I played a game (out side of games that have static protagonists or are pure dungeon crawls) where I had to "roll" a character and take what I got.  Almost every role playing system is based on point buy's and so is Eternity.

 

So again, you get to decide what you want to play and distribute those stats based on those decisions.  If you are distributing stats and then saying "what does this guys stats say about them" then you are doing it wrong.  That is called "Roll Playing" or to some extent being a Munchkin.  I have made it clear in multiple posts all over this forum I am not big fan of either.

Edited by Karkarov

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Since Might is king of all (dps, healing, Fortitude, pack space) then I will likely pump that across all classes. Following that I will simply choose whichever secondary stat applies to the classes and increase that. Everything else will likely stay at baseline.

So might, not dex, is the DPS primary stat for rogues and rangers as well as the conventional heavy hitters?

Might governs healing, damage, and carrying capacity for all classes. However, AoE and durations on effects are governed by Intellect. Dexterity increases accuracy, and thus will decrease grazes and increase full hits and crits if I am not mistaken. While Intellect increase AoE and Duration. So, dexterity and intellect could be a DPS gain with the right class, skill set, play style, and/or situational uses.

 

 

And don't forget it also effects Fortitude. Might is a super powerful attribute, imo. 


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And don't forget it also effects Fortitude. Might is a super powerful attribute, imo. 

That is what is cool about the system Obsidian has in place here though, on some level all the stats are actually very powerful.  There is no more "dump stat".

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There may not be a true dump stat but not all stats are created equally either, imo. Sure you can create some one-off build that specializes in a particular thing but I think there are certain attributes that are more valuable than others.

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There may not be a true dump stat but not all stats are created equally either, imo. Sure you can create some one-off build that specializes in a particular thing~ but I think there are certain attributes that are more valuable than others.

Could be, but Josh said over in the SA fora that the values of raising attributes in CC aren't all equal. One point of Perception gives a bigger boost to interrupt chance than one point of Dexterity gives to accuracy. So that's another way to balance their utility.

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Whaaaaaa? I wonder whats the point of that? Must have had a hard time making no "dump stats".

 

Would there happen to be hard numbers that displays this anywhere that you can link?


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Whaaaaaa? I wonder whats the point of that? Must have had a hard time making no "dump stats".

 

Would there happen to be hard numbers that displays this anywhere that you can link?

 

No numbers--Josh didn't give any.  I also extrapolated that the differences might apply to more than one set of stats.  Well, make up your own mind--he posted this about a week ago:

 

 

Josh Sawyer said:

 

The amount by which a point of Dexterity increases Accuracy is less than the amount by which a point of Perception increases Interrupt. Interrupts are pretty valuable.

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As for balancing among ability scores, actually, it's been very obvious if you read the devs' posts related with ability scores… I don't know why a part of people overlook the obvious point: The devs are making the game based on their own rules and they can adjust them in a way they like. They made a solid basis during the pre-production period so that they can only need to adjust variables later. I think they are currently optimizing the system while test-playing and, if some people want to join the process, they can do it with a cost with the upcoming beta. They sound quite confident, too.

 

On topic, in PnP experience, the players can interpret the ability score by themselves and arrange it as a part of role-playing but, in CRPG, it's the devs who come up with the actual lines. Personally, I'd assign points to ability scores just for party chemistry and I may find it rather annoying at times if the devs try to define the PC through the stats. So, even if there are choices based on ability scores, I'll probably avoid them when I don't feel it fits my image of the PC.

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So, even if there are choices based on ability scores, I'll probably avoid them when I don't feel it fits my image of the PC.

Heh, Im just the opposite. If I see an option for a ability/skill response I always take it just because its there.


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You can turn that off, right? I remember reading that was among the things you can toggle, dialogue option descriptors like [intimidate] and [Athletics].

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So, even if there are choices based on ability scores, I'll probably avoid them when I don't feel it fits my image of the PC.

Heh, Im just the opposite. If I see an option for a ability/skill response I always take it just because its there.

 

 

I do the same as you usually. But since in PoE successful skill checks are not necessarily win buttons, I may rethink my attitude. What's the point of breaking character if you get no bonuses for that...

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