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of goblins and orcs..

orcs goblins halflings

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#41
AGX-17

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Hi all,

I just realized orcs, goblins and halflings weren't going to be part of this game. While I don't necessarily criticize this design decision, I was wondering what would you lose by adding them at least at character creation?


Any semblance of creativity or respectability. Discussion over. Full stop.

Orcs, goblins and halflings can stay in their putrid, stagnant little plot in Tolkien-ripoff history. Obsidian can do better and they are doing better.

GODLYKE 4 LYFE! WESTSIDE!

Edited by AGX-17, 25 July 2014 - 04:38 PM.

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#42
Malekith

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^ This.

That PoE has elves,dwarves,D&D classes and Forgotten Realms-like setting are the worst parts of the Project already. Adding the rest of the baggage won't help.



#43
Calmar

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Using genuine orcs and goblins is ok - they're as much part of the fantasy-mythology as are angels, trolls, or wyverns. Using stuff that clearly behaves and feels like orcs and goblins but pretends to be an original creature (about every usually-evil race of usually-minions) is rubbish.


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#44
AGX-17

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Using genuine orcs and goblins is ok - they're as much part of the fantasy-mythology as are angels, trolls, or wyverns. Using stuff that clearly behaves and feels like orcs and goblins but pretends to be an original creature (about every usually-evil race of usually-minions) is rubbish.


Orcs are an invention of Tolkien. Please actually learn something about what you're saying before saying it. I'm a kind person so I don't want you to have to experience the taste of your own foot. They have no place in any mythology.

Goblins don't even qualify as being on the level of "myth." They're more on the level of "**** medieval parents told their kids would happen to them if they misbehaved." Wyvern is just a fancy name for dragons. Angels are an order of magnitude above all those other creatures due to their presence in Abrahamic religions, which are globally dominant and have billions of adherents.

All that said, it's always better to try to come up with your own concept of an original creature/race than to just brain-puke out all the stuff you read in high school. Maybe change some minor details for the sake of plausible deniability/avoid accusations of your dwarves being an arguably racist caricature of Jews.

Edited by AGX-17, 02 August 2014 - 04:02 PM.

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#45
Sarog

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 I'd be favour of including orcs if they were intelligently done. I've no expectation that they be added to Eora, but you never know. The setting hopefully has a long future ahead of it, which means a lot of room to grow.

 

Elves and dwarves have been pretty well developed in fantasy. Just about every blend of fantasy has three or four varieties of elf, and possibly multiple varities of dwarf. That element of Tolien's legacy has been thoroughly tapped. Orcs haven't. In most settings, particularly D&D settings, they are just a monstruous race with a poorly-conceptualized barbaric culture. If you're already accepting Tolkien's legacy into your work - which Obsidian has done with elves and dwarves - you have the opportunity to do something new with a traditional high fantasy race that is left underdeveloped by most franchises.

 

Warcraft of course puts a fair amount of emphasis on them, but while Warcraft may have had some good ideas it is pretty terribly written and could easily be outclassed. Elder Scrolls also does an interesting take and makes orcs playable and gives them a culture that is significantly different from the stereotype, though it is a fairly under developed part of the franchise lore.

 

Obsidian is putting its own spin on elves and dwarves. And what I appreciate about Josh's world building is the emphasis he puts on history. If Obsidian were to decide to include orcs in the setting at a later date, I'd be excited to see what Obsidian would do with them. Orcs in fantasy have yet to receive an intelligent, well-considered civilization and an interesting, serious history. Warcraft is too childish and dudebro, and Elder Scrolls comes close but does orcish civilization in very small scale and with very little attention.

 

So far in Eora humans seem to cover germanic, latin, and mesoamerican cultures, elves have a strong celtic influence, and aumaua seem influenced by the Far East. That still leaves a fair amount of historical inspiration that could be used to put a new twist on other races. Orcs could be injected with Turkic flavour, to take inspiration from the likes of the cumans, pechenegs, or early turks. Or they could take on an Armenian/Persian element and embrace a Middle Eastern aesthetic, which I think would be immensely interesting. Or, heck, you could even look to Greece for inspiration.

 

My point is that just about any direction that Obsidian would pick for orcs if they chose to explore them would be dramatically new development for a race that has received precious little inteligent consideration in the high fantasy genre, and that would be a lot of fun. I see plenty of room in the current status quo for orcs to be included at a later date without stepping on the aumaua's conceptual toes.

 

-------------------------------

 

 

Any semblance of creativity or respectability. Discussion over. Full stop.

Orcs, goblins and halflings can stay in their putrid, stagnant little plot in Tolkien-ripoff history. Obsidian can do better and they are doing better.

 

 

I might agree with this were elves and dwarves not present in the setting. The fact that they are renders the point absurd.

 

Taking a stand against Tolkien would be well and good, but including elves as an obligatory part of high fantasy robs that stand of any credibility. Do you think elves rob the setting of any creativity or respectability? If the answer is "no", then you are excercising an entirely arbitrary judgment of what is good Tolkien and what is bad Tolkien. Which is fine, but entirely subjective. Claiming an objective disparity between the "credibility" of elves and that of orcs is ridiculous.

 

 

 


Orcs are an invention of Tolkien. Please actually learn something about what you're saying before saying it. I'm a kind person so I don't want you to have to experience the taste of your own foot. They have no place in any mythology.
 

 

 

Orcs as we understand them are an invention of Tolkien. Which is equally true of elves and dwarves. But they do have mythological credentials, just obscure ones. Older forms of the word were used in English to refer to evil spirits, undead corpses, and something which matches our concept of an ogre. The modern orc has come a long way from that, but so have modern elves grown distinct from their mythological origins.


Edited by Sarog, 03 August 2014 - 01:26 AM.

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#46
Darkpriest

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To be honest, I feel like there is a place for Orcs, for example a culture based on Aztec (more stationary) or Hun (nomadic) type. Not just mere brutes, but still warlike. Their labor based on slaves, more rural and religious types than art and science, but still with some own architecture that is not looking like primitive huts unless they are true nomads.


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#47
drake heath

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I might agree with this were elves and dwarves not present in the setting. The fact that they are renders the point absurd.

 

Taking a stand against Tolkien would be well and good, but including elves as an obligatory part of high fantasy robs that stand of any credibility. Do you think elves rob the setting of any creativity or respectability? If the answer is "no", then you are excercising an entirely arbitrary judgment of what is good Tolkien and what is bad Tolkien. Which is fine, but entirely subjective. Claiming an objective disparity between the "credibility" of elves and that of orcs is ridiculous.

 

Yeah, I mean, drawing an arbitrary line like "Elves partially based on Native Americans are acceptable, while anything that looks like an Orc/Goblin/Halfling/Gnome is unacceptable and unoriginal."

Because "Elves = Celtic Native Americans" as never been done before, ever.

 

You guys need to have more trust in the worldbuilding abilities of Obsidian, I'm sure if they wanted to add Orcs/Goblings/Haflings/Gnomes they'd do a good job on making them more original and unique, like they're doing with the elves.

 

I think just breaking the fantasy trope of "Race = Culture" (which they're doing with PoE), without making them just an odd exception, goes a long way in making a typical fantasy race more original; and if they can do it with elves and dwarves, (even humans), why can't do they do it with Orcs?


Edited by drake heath, 03 August 2014 - 04:43 AM.

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#48
wolfstriked

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Love Dwarves but they are never made the way I would like to see them.Extreme strength with +4 points towards that score(living deep inside of rock tends to requiere great strength) coupled with a large negative also and that is very slow movement.So in open area combat they kinda suck as enemies can kite them from afar but get them into closed tight spaces and those little buggars grow and grow and you will feel just how tough they really are.

 

Which gets me to a question I have for POE.I have this thing in RPG's that ruins the game for me whenever it happens and that is magical items that improve attributes.You go all out in making parties with strong fighters and then you find a ring that grants your weakling the same strength.Why even bother then is the feeling I get and then I start metagaming and starting fighters with low strength and high dex and then giving them the belt of cosmo strength.In my recent playthru of BG2enhancedI found Viconia and love the fact that she can not use so many weapons.It added flavor to her but then I found a belt of stone giant strenth and voila.Sorry just my pet peeve with RPG's and magical items that balance out all the characters.


Edited by wolfstriked, 03 August 2014 - 11:24 AM.


#49
archangel979

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Do we really need goblins and orcs? I don't remember any in BG1 and BG2. 



#50
Sarog

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Do we really need goblins and orcs? I don't remember any in BG1 and BG2. 

 

Not so much a matter of "do we need them?" as it is a matter of "could they contribute something worthwhile to the setting?" and "could the setting contribute something worthwhile to them?". In both cases I'd say the answer is yes. With respect to orcs, at least. I'm more ambivalent about goblins.

 

But there were plenty of orcs in both Baldur's Gate games. They just weren't terribly important or interesting.


Edited by Sarog, 04 August 2014 - 04:39 AM.

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#51
Chilloutman

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Do we really need goblins and orcs? I don't remember any in BG1 and BG2. 

 

Irenicus dungeon is filled with goblins



#52
Messier-31

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^ This.

That PoE has elves,dwarves,D&D classes and Forgotten Realms-like setting are the worst parts of the Project already. Adding the rest of the baggage won't help.

 

Take these "worst parts of the Project" away and what does it leave you? Humans? Oceans and meadows? That's a cliche rip-off too.

 

Just go and play Tides of Numenera instead if you're not into classic fantasy, geez. (why did you back the game in the first place?)


Edited by Messier-31, 04 August 2014 - 04:51 AM.

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#53
drake heath

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^ This.

That PoE has elves,dwarves,D&D classes and Forgotten Realms-like setting are the worst parts of the Project already. Adding the rest of the baggage won't help.

 

Take these "worst parts of the Project" away and what does it leave you? Humans? Oceans and meadows? That's a cliche rip-off too.

 

Just go and play Tides of Numenera instead if you're not into classic fantasy, geez. (why did you back the game in the first place?)

 

Obsidian: "Hey, guys we want to make a game like the old IE games, such as BG and IWD!"

 

*4 Million Backer Dollars Later*

 

Backers: "Ugh, why is it like Forgotten Realms!? I hate that stuff!"


Edited by drake heath, 04 August 2014 - 04:57 AM.

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#54
Panteleimon

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Any semblance of creativity or respectability. Discussion over. Full stop.

Orcs, goblins and halflings can stay in their putrid, stagnant little plot in Tolkien-ripoff history. Obsidian can do better and they are doing better.

 

 

I might agree with this were elves and dwarves not present in the setting. The fact that they are renders the point absurd.

 

Taking a stand against Tolkien would be well and good, but including elves as an obligatory part of high fantasy robs that stand of any credibility. Do you think elves rob the setting of any creativity or respectability? If the answer is "no", then you are excercising an entirely arbitrary judgment of what is good Tolkien and what is bad Tolkien. Which is fine, but entirely subjective. Claiming an objective disparity between the "credibility" of elves and that of orcs is ridiculous.

 

 

Orcs and Goblins are two great examples of elements that virtually always encourage lazy, derivative and just plain bad writing.  Obsidian is putting together a world where culture(and the budding nationalism appropriate to the renaissance era) are the defining features of people much more so than simply race.  If they brought in Orcs(which I don't believe they ever will) they'd just be the same old Mongol/Hun/Tartar knockoffs they always are. People you can immediately identify as the "bad guys" and slaughter without the slightest thought or intellectual excercise and who don't require any investment in building their culture, language or way of life before the player gets to hack away at them.

 

They've already managed to avoid silliness like having their nativist elves live in treehouses or in nomadic clans, and their dwarves pull on a much more interesting angle as explorers, seafarers and fronteirsmen(which itself is informed by the real history of Vikings as intelligent explorers and traders and not just axe-wielding berserk raiders) rather than the incredibly well-trodden, boring "mountain dwelling smiths with Scottish accents and Babylonian arcitecture" .

 

They're got a good thing going.


Edited by Panteleimon, 04 August 2014 - 05:54 AM.


#55
archangel979

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Do we really need goblins and orcs? I don't remember any in BG1 and BG2. 

 

Irenicus dungeon is filled with goblins

 

Weren't those kobolds? 

 

OK, I don't remember any goblins and orcs in BG1 and I didn't miss them.


Edited by archangel979, 04 August 2014 - 05:29 AM.


#56
Malekith

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Take these "worst parts of the Project" away and what does it leave you? Humans? Oceans and meadows? That's a cliche rip-off too.

 

Take away these parts and replace them with somehting else obviously, not just remove them. And i would love a game without humans as well.

 

 

Just go and play Tides of Numenera instead if you're not into classic fantasy, geez. (why did you back the game in the first place?)

I love fantasy, just the traditional parts of it are way overused and never were interesting in the first place. Even fantasy literature has moved away from that crap, but video games are still trying to copy Tolkien/D&D.

 

As for why backed this project, because BG2/PS:T are my favorite games to date, and i trust Obsidian to deliver more than i trust inXile. Plus Ziets described PoE setting as closer to Malazan than Tolkien, so that's a plus. That doesn't mean that there aren't things in the project that i wouldn't prefer being done a different way.



#57
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I hope it is something like Malazan. That setting rules, even if the last volumes of the Book of the Fallen got a bit boring due to epic overload.
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#58
Malekith

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I hope it is something like Malazan. That setting rules, even if the last volumes of the Book of the Fallen got a bit boring due to epic word overload.

Fixed. Erikson rules, but he needs a tighter editor.


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#59
Sarog

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Orcs and Goblins are two great examples of elements that virtually always encourage lazy, derivative and just plain bad writing.

 

This is equally true - I would argue more true - of elves and dwarves. But Obsidian is including those, and we trust them to do a good job.

 

There rest of your post doesn't make sense to me. You seem to praise Obsidian for doing new, creative things with the races they've chosen to include, but assume that if Obsidian were to include orcs they would not be able to do similar creative things. There's nothing inherent to orcs and goblins that would suddenly make Obsidian incapable of creativity. You're arguing from a double standard.


Edited by Sarog, 04 August 2014 - 06:44 AM.

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#60
Chilloutman

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Do we really need goblins and orcs? I don't remember any in BG1 and BG2. 

 

Irenicus dungeon is filled with goblins

 

Weren't those kobolds? 

 

OK, I don't remember any goblins and orcs in BG1 and I didn't miss them.

 

 

Most are goblins







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