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of goblins and orcs..

orcs goblins halflings

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#181
Nonek

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'Umiez iz WEAK! Green iz best!



#182
Elerond

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Warhammer and Warhammer 40k both (WH40k more often than WH) have in places very interesting lore, even though it is very inconsistent and has often quite radical changes between editions, but at least there is always something fresh. 



#183
BruceVC

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I don`t understand how racism/homophobia relates to orcs, but whatever.

 

As usual though I get hung up on all the propaganda terms being hurled around as if they mean something, so a few definitions:

 

Racism : Racially discriminatory policy. That`s what the -ism means. Anything that ends with -ism is a doctrine of political control, so really only governments are ever racist. If you hate other people just because of their skin color as an individual on principle you could also use it in a way, but it is more accurate to say racial hatred. I would even argue that the race issue is being used deliberately to stifle free speech. For example, if you criticize Obama you are automatically racist, even though he is half white and not a very black looking man at all. It`s a way to slander any opposition and has little to do with reality. If you criticize Israel you`re also a racist, even though Judaism is not a race but a religion. Inserting this issue everywhere is destroying language, whatever else people imagine it is in aid of.

 

Homophobia = An irrational fear of men. Even more specifically:  to have an irrational fear of things which are the same as you. But you can dislike homosexual activities without having an irrational fear of men, so this word is nonsensical. Again it is used to slander people and to stop the conversation, just like the word "racist" is.

 

I wish people would be more interested in what words actually mean, and not just use them because everybody else keeps repeating them without thinking. And either way freedom of speech is more important than any of this. If you`re not free to be a "racist" or a "homophobe" then you`re not free period. If you`re not free you`re a slave. So we should all celebrate both "racism" and "homophobia" as free speech exercises, no matter how offensive we find it or how ignorant it is. And that`s all I have to say about this to all the righteously indignant people you always run across whenever these issues arise.

 

And now, can we get back to orcs please....

 

Final point from me and then I'll move back to the Orcs

 

Homophobia isn't a fear of men but a dislike or a fear  of gay people, this is a very important distinction

 

http://www.oxforddic...lish/homophobia

 

http://www.merriam-w...nary/homophobia



#184
Nonek

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Such sweet lilting tones as well:

 

 

Edit: One has to wonder how much throat lubrication the voice actor quaffed.


Edited by Nonek, 08 August 2014 - 06:33 AM.


#185
ashtonw

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But despite all this overt exposure to racism and the fact we as South Africans are very aware of racism, sometimes we see it when its not there, I have never in all my years of playing fantasy games or reading books  every thought of Orcs as symbol of racism. Tolkien did grow up in South Africa and its quite possible that Orcs did represent black people to him, I always thought they represented Germans as others mentioned

 

Oh yes, the danger of being a member of a privileged class: seeing racism when it's not there. Can we just toss Tolkien aside for the moment (because I hate LoTR and I never finished the books) and just look at how tribal cultures in scifi and fantasy in general are treated as inhuman, barbaric, primitive "others" and what this says about how we view the real people who live in tribal cultures (who may not be necessarily black).



#186
Elerond

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I don`t understand how racism/homophobia relates to orcs, but whatever.

 

As usual though I get hung up on all the propaganda terms being hurled around as if they mean something, so a few definitions:

 

Racism : Racially discriminatory policy. That`s what the -ism means. Anything that ends with -ism is a doctrine of political control, so really only governments are ever racist. If you hate other people just because of their skin color as an individual on principle you could also use it in a way, but it is more accurate to say racial hatred. I would even argue that the race issue is being used deliberately to stifle free speech. For example, if you criticize Obama you are automatically racist, even though he is half white and not a very black looking man at all. It`s a way to slander any opposition and has little to do with reality. If you criticize Israel you`re also a racist, even though Judaism is not a race but a religion. Inserting this issue everywhere is destroying language, whatever else people imagine it is in aid of.

 

Homophobia = An irrational fear of men. Even more specifically:  to have an irrational fear of things which are the same as you. But you can dislike homosexual activities without having an irrational fear of men, so this word is nonsensical. Again it is used to slander people and to stop the conversation, just like the word "racist" is.

 

I wish people would be more interested in what words actually mean, and not just use them because everybody else keeps repeating them without thinking. And either way freedom of speech is more important than any of this. If you`re not free to be a "racist" or a "homophobe" then you`re not free period. If you`re not free you`re a slave. So we should all celebrate both "racism" and "homophobia" as free speech exercises, no matter how offensive we find it or how ignorant it is. And that`s all I have to say about this to all the righteously indignant people you always run across whenever these issues arise.

 

And now, can we get back to orcs please....

 

Your definitions for those words aren't what people generally define them to mean.

 

Merriam-Webster uses following definitions

Homophobia: irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals

Racism: poor treatment of or violence against people because of their race

 

Oxford dictionaries uses following definitions

Homophobia: An extreme and irrational aversion to homosexuality and homosexual people.

Racism: 

  • The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
  • Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one’s own race is superior:

 

Dictionary.com uses following definitions:

Homophobia: unreasoning fear of or antipathy toward homosexuals and homosexuality. And intense hatred or fear of homosexuals or homosexuality

Racism:

  • a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
  • a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
  • hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

Wikipedia.com uses following definitions:

Homophobia encompasses a range of negative attitudes and feelings toward homosexuality or people who are identified or perceived as being lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender (LGBT). It can be expressed as antipathy, contempt, prejudice, aversion, or hatred, may be based on irrational fear, and is sometimes related to religious beliefs.

Racism consists of both prejudice and discrimination based in social perceptions of biological differences between peoples. It often takes the form of social actions, practices or beliefs, or political systems that consider different races to be ranked as inherently superior or inferior to each other, based on presumed shared inheritable traits, abilities, or qualities. It may also hold that members of different races should be treated differently.

 

Anti-Defamation League - ADL uses following definitions:

Homophobia is the hatred or fear of homosexuals - that is, lesbians and gay men - sometimes leading to acts of violence and expressions of hostility.

Racism is the belief that a particular race is superior or inferior to another, that a person’s social and moral traits are predetermined by his or her inborn biological characteristics. Racial separatism is the belief, most of the time based on racism, that different races should remain segregated and apart from one another.

 

Wiktionary uses following definitions:

Homophobia Fear, dislike or hatred of gays and lesbians.

Racism:

  • The belief that each race has distinct and intrinsic attributes.
  • The belief that one race is superior to all others.
  • Prejudice or discrimination based upon race.

 

Origin of word homophobia

Homophobia Society's rethinking of sexual orientation was crystallized in the term homophobia, which heterosexual psychologist George Weinberg coined in the late 1960s. Weinberg used homophobia to label heterosexuals' dread of being in close quarters with homosexuals as well as homosexuals' self loathing. The word first appeared in print in 1969 and was subsequently discussed at length in Weinberg's 1972 book, Society and the Healthy Homosexual.

 

Point of origin for racism is more difficult to determine, but Oxford English Dictionary first defined it as "[t]he theory that distinctive human characteristics and abilities are determined by race", and gives year 1936 as the first recorded use for it. Additionally, the OED records racism as a synonym of racialism: "belief in the superiority of a particular race".


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#187
BruceVC

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But despite all this overt exposure to racism and the fact we as South Africans are very aware of racism, sometimes we see it when its not there, I have never in all my years of playing fantasy games or reading books  every thought of Orcs as symbol of racism. Tolkien did grow up in South Africa and its quite possible that Orcs did represent black people to him, I always thought they represented Germans as others mentioned

 

Oh yes, the danger of being a member of a privileged class: seeing racism when it's not there. Can we just toss Tolkien aside for the moment (because I hate LoTR and I never finished the books) and just look at how tribal cultures in scifi and fantasy in general are treated as inhuman, barbaric, primitive "others" and what this says about how we view the real people who live in tribal cultures (who may not be necessarily black).

 

 

Alright lets have this debate, I want to be clear on your point. Are you saying that generally in Sci-fi and fantasy, like Orcs, tribal cultures are seen as barbaric and primitive and what this really represents is symbolism for black people nowadays? If I understand you correctly. I don't see the connection because many modern tribes have been integrated into society? And yes of course there are black people who live still live outside  cities. For example  in South Africa we have millions of people who live in rural areas but we don't consider them primitive or barbaric. Most of them are not sophisticated due to lack of education or poor education  buts that just a reality. And of course education is key to change this  and our government spends the most money in its budget on education. But this takes time

 

So I still don't see how barbaric tribes in fantasy realistically represents black people?


Edited by BruceVC, 08 August 2014 - 07:20 AM.


#188
ashtonw

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I tried to make it clear I WASN'T talking about black people- racism isn't just whites vs blacks. 


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#189
Nonek

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Now Goblins I always like to portray as a far more fantastical species, terrifying evil spirits that are spawned wherever the dark shadows gather, that will drag the weak down into their lairs and feast while cackling and screaming. I also usually like to make them potent in terms of spellweaving and enchantment.


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#190
PrimeJunta

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Also polyamory is wrong.

 

You don't mix Greek and Latin roots. It's polyphilia or multiamory dagnabbit!

 

(JK)


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#191
Amentep

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Are you saying that generally in Sci-fi and fantasy, like Orcs, tribal cultures are seen as barbaric and primitive and what this really represents is symbolism for black people nowadays?


To me, I interpret what ashtonw is saying to be that tribal cultures in sci-fi/fantasy are often seen as backward subhumans in need of the enlightenment from (or eradication by) the main culture. Its a reinforcement of the type of cultural imperialism that says it is okay to play colonial and bring civilization to the savages because its for their betterment to be forced to follow your culture than their own.

Mind you just as problematic is the Noble Savage view of primitive culture; in this scenario they should be embraced and emulated -- if not joined - because they have held on to an inherent "honesty" lost in modern culture. This view can eradicate an existing culture just as easily as the other...
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#192
BruceVC

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I tried to make it clear I WASN'T talking about black people- racism isn't just whites vs blacks. 

 

 

Are you saying that generally in Sci-fi and fantasy, like Orcs, tribal cultures are seen as barbaric and primitive and what this really represents is symbolism for black people nowadays?


To me, I interpret what ashtonw is saying to be that tribal cultures in sci-fi/fantasy are often seen as backward subhumans in need of the enlightenment from (or eradication by) the main culture. Its a reinforcement of the type of cultural imperialism that says it is okay to play colonial and bring civilization to the savages because its for their betterment to be forced to follow your culture than their own.

Mind you just as problematic is the Noble Savage view of primitive culture; in this scenario they should be embraced and emulated -- if not joined - because they have held on to an inherent "honesty" lost in modern culture. This view can eradicate an existing culture just as easily as the other...

 

 

I'm not sure what she means , she mentioned Tribal culture. Tribal culture still exists today but they exist primarily in Africa and South America. So I don't know why it is an unreasonable assumption if you mention tribal culture and I assume you mean black tribes. Ashton maybe give some examples so I understand you properly?

 

But yes of course  racism is not always white vs black, any racial  group can demonstrate racism. I would think that is obvious? But also what is inherently wrong with bringing technical advancements to less fortunate people? Why should we see this as bad thing, the main reason for this is that is associated with Colonialism and this more about the abuse of less advanced cultures and controlling of there natural resources. But if  you can improve the lives of people less fortunate this is a good thing and something we should aspire to, its the implementation of it that to me can be controversial

 

Let me give an example. As most of you probably know there is the spread at the moment of the Ebola virus in some Western  African countries, this is a very deadly and concerning virus that doesn't exist in Western countries. So what is wrong with the  World Health Organisation coming to places like Liberia  and telling them, and helping them,  that  they really need to improve certain aspects of there healthcare and social conditions  to prevent this type of virus?



#193
Namutree

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Oh yes, the danger of being a member of a privileged class: seeing racism when it's not there. Can we just toss Tolkien aside for the moment (because I hate LoTR and I never finished the books) and just look at how tribal cultures in scifi and fantasy in general are treated as inhuman, barbaric, primitive "others" and what this says about how we view the real people who live in tribal cultures (who may not be necessarily black).

 

Shawdowrun has been pretty good in regards to tribal societies. I recently played Shadowrun for the genesis and thought the Amerindians were pretty cool. I wish more tribal societies were portrayed like that. 


Edited by Namutree, 08 August 2014 - 09:30 AM.


#194
NWN_babaYaga

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We will never live in a perfect world... racism, islamophobia, jewophobia christianophobia, homophobia etc. will only be erased once we are all just one monotone human something that cant use it´s own brain anymore and is plugged into a computer that uses you as a drone to work and consume. We have hell and heaven here on earth depending what destiny (even it sounds harsh) you have.  As long as money and consumerism exists you have poor and rich people and that is the biggest issue of everything imo. Racism was no issue in ancient times i bet but with the monotheistic religions it became a real problem and now money is the new age religion that is more destructive then the religions of old. So i dont see racism or homophobia as a big problem but the soulless zeitgeist of money rules everything and everyone sells out. But instead of trying to do something about the real problems arguing about the mentioned is more appropriate.... like another trend as always. Throw a bone of some enlightment into the media and let the "illuminated" few here and there telling like parrots the mass what humanism is or should be in the future not seeing their own inner demon who wants to force his oppinion on others... and if you dont see that i´m sorry for you ;)



#195
Macrae

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Guys, please stop using these retarded 18 year old leftist words...racism, fascism, homophobia, whatever...!!

 

It's only about interests guys!! Rich Arabs and Jews get along very well!!! So called "racism" is created so that lower class workers can keep busy blaming each other instead of the real responsible which is global capital!! For fuk's sake stop it with these ready-made expressions used to categorize people!!

 

SKull very clearly sums it up: "...it is used to slander people and to stop the conversation."
 

These are expressions forced onto the population, especially on young 18 year old middle class western populations, to lock the conversation, prevent people from questioning and actually using their brains..

------

Back to the main discussion, I don't think orcs are racist representations of any particular human social group EVEN THOUGH it probably is the representation of the accumulated collective subconscious perception of "threat from the east" in the minds of the western populations...nothing wrong or unethical here...


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#196
ashtonw

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I'm not sure what she means , she mentioned Tribal culture. Tribal culture still exists today but they exist primarily in Africa and South America. So I don't know why it is an unreasonable assumption if you mention tribal culture and I assume you mean black tribes. Ashton maybe give some examples so I understand you properly?


Native Americans? Due to genocide and imperialism their societies may not look the same as they did centuries ago but they still have tribal identities and culture. After murdering them, robbing them of rights, and continuing to practice discrimination against them, it's a little awful to take symbols and stereotypes associated with them, remove the human element, and stick them on monsters.
 

I would think that is obvious? But also what is inherently wrong with bringing technical advancements to less fortunate people? Why should we see this as bad thing, the main reason for this is that is associated with Colonialism and this more about the abuse of less advanced cultures and controlling of there natural resources. But if  you can improve the lives of people less fortunate this is a good thing and something we should aspire to, its the implementation of it that to me can be controversial


What good are technical advancements if they come with oppression and exploitation? Why does "less technically advanced" always equal "less fortunate"?


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#197
Mangonel

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Came for orcs and goblins, got dissertations on the history of racial stereotypes in literature. Vaguely on topic?

 

Anyway, I'm not too troubled with PoE's lack of some fantasy staples. Its fine to use genre staples, but its equally good not to rely too heavily on them when world-building lest your work end up a generic fantasy rehash.



#198
Amentep

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But also what is inherently wrong with bringing technical advancements to less fortunate people?


Why are they less fortunate? Because they don't live like you do?
 

But if  you can improve the lives of people less fortunate this is a good thing and something we should aspire to, its the implementation of it that to me can be controversial



The idea that - in generalities - you can "improve" the lives of "less fortunate" you're already assuming that your way of life is correct and those who don't live that life need your interference to be enlightened to your righteousness.
 

Let me give an example. As most of you probably know there is the spread at the moment of the Ebola virus in some Western  African countries, this is a very deadly and concerning virus that doesn't exist in Western countries.


Not sure what you mean here; Ebola hasn't really spread far from its sources (as far as we understand them) because of the way it transmits from animals to humans; a hemoragic fever like the hantavirus that is spread by air in rat droppings is much more mobile.

Once in humans, we have a better understanding of how to prevent transmission there as well.

With regarding WHO and Ebola though, I don't think anyone would argue that there aren't ways to educate people about public health to the benefit of all populations. Heck, even trying to stop the mentality where people with HIV would rape virgins with the idea that it'd cure aids isn't really the issue.

To pull this to goblins and orcs, the cultures of the adventurers rarely have them lecturing orcs on disease tranmission, but more likely having them stick a knife in them and loot their corpses. In D&D IIRC Orcs don't even have a good diety to follow, so they're paper enemies, with no complexity supposed to represent the "evils" of the uncivilized there only to destroy the "good" culture, so thus must be destroyed first.

Now far be it from me to say they need to be more than 2 dimensional, but I recognize that people can rightly see the problem built around a "cowboy and indians" ethos.

Edited by Amentep, 08 August 2014 - 10:27 AM.

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#199
BruceVC

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I'm not sure what she means , she mentioned Tribal culture. Tribal culture still exists today but they exist primarily in Africa and South America. So I don't know why it is an unreasonable assumption if you mention tribal culture and I assume you mean black tribes. Ashton maybe give some examples so I understand you properly?


Native Americans? Due to genocide and imperialism their societies may not look the same as they did centuries ago but they still have tribal identities and culture. After murdering them, robbing them of rights, and continuing to practice discrimination against them, it's a little awful to take symbols and stereotypes associated with them, remove the human element, and stick them on monsters.
 

I would think that is obvious? But also what is inherently wrong with bringing technical advancements to less fortunate people? Why should we see this as bad thing, the main reason for this is that is associated with Colonialism and this more about the abuse of less advanced cultures and controlling of there natural resources. But if  you can improve the lives of people less fortunate this is a good thing and something we should aspire to, its the implementation of it that to me can be controversial


What good are technical advancements if they come with oppression and exploitation? Why does "less technically advanced" always equal "less fortunate"?

 

 

Okay I see what you are saying, I am a software consultant and I live in a world of 1 and 0 so I need examples in order to get clarity. So thanks for the Native American example

 

Yes there is no doubt that atrocities were committed in the past against various tribes in various countries. But nowadays the intention of Western countries is to help less fortunate countries or societies within reason, this of course does not mean all Western assistance doesn't have ulterior motives or is completely altruistic but if you think of the millions of dollars that gets poured into Africa and certain countries it is really suppose to uplift people. And I am not talking about investment from corporations, that's obviously about positive return but the country invested in obviously benefits through jobs and taxes and allows the governments of those countries to enhance and implement  education and healthcare and other areas of social transformation

 

So not all foreign aid is about exploitation. And finally why wouldn't any culture with a sense of the advantages of living in a global and educated world not want to be part of a system where you have electricity, housing and jobs? So this wouldn't apply to tribes in the heart of the amazon who don't know much about the outside world but if you go your average rural African person that is what they endeavour to....jobs, basic social services and a future for the children that lies outside poverty This is a natural part of a progressive society ?


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#200
BruceVC

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But also what is inherently wrong with bringing technical advancements to less fortunate people?


Why are they less fortunate? Because they don't live like you do?
 

But if  you can improve the lives of people less fortunate this is a good thing and something we should aspire to, its the implementation of it that to me can be controversial



The idea that - in generalities - you can "improve" the lives of "less fortunate" you're already assuming that your way of life is correct and those who don't live that life need your interference to be enlightened to your righteousness.
 

 

 

No offense Amentep but I do think my life is correct, not because I am arrogant but because I don't live in poverty. And why wouldn't anyone who lives in poverty not want to uplift themselves?

 

As I said in  the post above if you ask your average indigent South African what they expect from society and there government they always say the same thing " a job and basic services ( housing, water and electricity) and a future for there children". This is irrefutable and understandable considering the conditions many poor people live in







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