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And there wouldn't need to be two different documentaries. Flow mentioned to ship the complete documentary later as a physical dvd/blu-ray.

There would if you wanted to please everyone. That's kind of my entire point. Some people are gonna go "whoa, a delay on the documentary? NOT COOL, man!", just like current people are going "Whoa, there won't be a disc? NOT COOL, man!"

 

Everyone prioritizes the factors differently, and it's easy to say "Pssh, what I want is more important than what others may want." And there's not really an option for Obsidian that pleases everyone, shy of an "all of the above" option, which would require multiple versions of the documentary.

 

 

I don't think Obsidian is required to please everyone; I would have preferred a physical copy of the documentary, but my internet connection is perfectly capable of downloading it quickly enough and I can make one myself.  Not a big deal.  But I do think that this is unfair on the people whose situation is different to mine - those with awful speed or usage caps who selected physical goods because downloading anything significant wasn't an option for them.

 

That said, if it were me, I'd view spending extra money on shipping out the documentary separately to be an utter waste, and would rather that the funds go towards the expansion.  Kickstarters promise a lot of things that end up needing to be cut or changed because the logistics don't work out in practice; this is better than cut content.

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Oh hey, a creature lore post! I'm always going on about how you guys should do more of this non-spoiler setting posts, so glad to see my wishes get fulfilled. Thoughts:

 

Blights:

 

Love the concept, not so much the execution. It's not apparent from the animations that these are the spirits of the dead: They look just like plain-old elemental blobs. I think they could have been far more effective if they actually *looked* like how they're described in the flavor text, though I understand that in practice they'll be too small on the screen for small details like hundreds of human hands to be easily visible (but I don't think this is an unsolvable problem for a talented artist). Also, an aside, but wouldn't it be more indicative if the different types of blights were named after the natural disasters that created them? Like change "Earth" to "Landslide" or "Rain" to "Flood" or "Wind" to "Hurricane".

 

Xaurips:

 

I actually saw these on youtube before I jumped over here to read the update, and my first reaction was "Man, these look *exactly* like Kobolds; If it didn't have Pillars of Eternity labeled on it I'd assume this was for a licensed D&D title. I hope they have something neat that separates them from the generic D&D kobolds besides the name." And... yeah. From the design and the flavor text I'm not sure what worldbuilding purpose these serve besides "We need another type of weak, swarming mook enemy that lives in caves for the player to fight for variety reasons, and Kobolds are easily recognizable so we don't have to spend time expositing about them." Maybe the writers can give them some interesting stuff in dialogue, assuming we ever get to talk to any of them. (I'd really rather Pillars of Eternity not be the kind of RPG where even intelligent enemies unfailingly fight the player to the death on sight for no reason because the game doesn't view them as anything more than blobs of XP for the player to get.)

 

Vithrack:

 

Of the three creatures presented today I think the Vithrack are probably the best executed, at least from an artistic/lore standpoint. It's interesting how they're highly altruistic toward each other; It'd have been very easy to go the obvious Drow-imitator route (especially with the spider motif) and made them all backstabbing **** (in spite of their difficulties with their reproduction and with their hostile native environment, which has always made Drow and Drow-wannabes leave a bad taste in my mouth), and I'm very happy that you've avoided this route (and taken some Mind Flayer influences as well without copying the icky "invaders from the future" bull). I do have two problems though: First, given what we're told about the Vithrack's low population and harsh environment, it'd make the most sense for them to stick together in one place, but the description seems to imply that they're scattered about in small pockets. Is there any good reason for this? Second, the "low birthrates" without further justification feels like a cop-out rather than a proper explanation for why the species doesn't just conquer the world: Why are their birthrates so low? Why can't they do anything to increase them? (With Drow the explanation always seems to be "Well they live to be 1000 years old but as elves they only have the same number of kids over their lifetime as humans, so that averages out to one kid every 200-300 years. Don't think about it too hard.")

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Not at all happy with the Blu-ray "turning into" a digital reward... :verymad:

 

... in other words:

 

We were faced with a bit of a dilemma when it came to the full documentary footage. In order to provide a physical copy of the documentary when the game shipped, we would be unable to show the final leg of production in order to have time to print all of the discs and packaging decided to go cheap because Paradox wants to maximize their profits at the expense of KS backers like me.
 
 

 

Perhaps I'm being cynical but changing physical rewards to digital means less expense for their publishing "partners" even though backers (a.k.a. "old-school box collectors") like myself spent hundreds of dollars, above and beyond, for those physical pieces... I HATE digital downloads/ rewards/ etc. It stinks of being cheap and really not having the person own it. Yes, the core game matters most but I, and others I'm sure, put in a lot more than most would pay for any game with the promise of certain extras.

 

Just disappointed but we'll see what else changes before release...

 

You're not being cynical, you're being tinfoil-hat-conspiracy-nut-cracy whose convinced that the profits of a tangentially relevant publisher is to blame for Obsidian wanting to deliver the best content they can to us, their fans, even if that means changing the method of that delivery. 

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I get the point of increased shipping costs being a pretty big deal, but it's also an exaggeration to suggest sending one CD mailer envelope is the same cost as sending a bulky parcel containing a large CE box, hefty artbook, T-shirts, cards, etcetera, unless the US Postal Service works in stranger ways than I could have imagined.

 

 

(Quick guess as to cost of 5000-7000 DVD mailers at say, $10-15 each (I imagine very conservative considering a good number of them would be domestic mail only), I'd say south of $100,000. Not small but not end-of-the-world stuff either)

 

No you are wrong, problem is not about how big is delivery, but that you have to do it twice

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I've spent a lot of money in this kickstarter, first and foremost to help making this game possible, but also because I wanted the signed CE. Every backer had the possibility to choose between physical and digital-only tiers, and those who chose the physical rewards did so for a reason. My reason was not the cloth map, not the artbook, not the mouse pad (sorry), but the documentary on BluRay. I was looking forward to just putting the disc in the player and watching the documentary on the big screen. With the technical equipment in my living room, that's not half as easy with a digital downloadable version.

 

You have set up surveys in the past, maybe it's possible to let the backers choose between two or more (reasonable) options, for example:

- getting the CE on time, without BD, but another reward

- get the digital version of the game on time, but the physical rewards two months later, including the BD, but not the new reward

 

If that is not possible, it would be really great if one of the digital downloadable versions of the documentary would be a BluRay-ISO, so that we can burn the discs ourselves.

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Not at all happy with the Blu-ray "turning into" a digital reward... :verymad:

 

... in other words:

 

We were faced with a bit of a dilemma when it came to the full documentary footage. In order to provide a physical copy of the documentary when the game shipped, we would be unable to show the final leg of production in order to have time to print all of the discs and packaging decided to go cheap because Paradox wants to maximize their profits at the expense of KS backers like me.
 
 

 

Perhaps I'm being cynical but changing physical rewards to digital means less expense for their publishing "partners" even though backers (a.k.a. "old-school box collectors") like myself spent hundreds of dollars, above and beyond, for those physical pieces... I HATE digital downloads/ rewards/ etc. It stinks of being cheap and really not having the person own it. Yes, the core game matters most but I, and others I'm sure, put in a lot more than most would pay for any game with the promise of certain extras.

 

Just disappointed but we'll see what else changes before release...

 

You're not being cynical, you're being tinfoil-hat-conspiracy-nut-cracy whose convinced that the profits of a tangentially relevant publisher is to blame for Obsidian wanting to deliver the best content they can to us, their fans, even if that means changing the method of that delivery. 

 

 

Regardless as to their actual motive for "changing the method of delivery", it is a change from what was originally promised and people paid for. Those who choose digital only could care less, I get that, but many spent much larger sums for promised physical rewards. I've backed many games on KS because of the promise for a return to "old school" games including the promise of "old school" boxes full of feelies/ trinkets/ extras that we used to get back in the day.

 

I'm just one of those grumpy old gamers that doesn't feel like I own anything that is digitally delivered. I want the physical boxed game on my shelf. :bat:

Edited by mindx2
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The only way the physical DVD can be remedied is to ship a blank DVD, a DVD writer and the digital link so that we can burn it ourselves. There, problem solved.

 

Or they can delay shipping the game until the DVD is done. So everyone gets the game later.

 

Although if I remember correctly, the DVD and the whole documentary wasn't even in the initial offerings when the kickstarter was published. It just became a free add on near the end of the drive. So...I don't really understand outrage. I find it hard to believe that people increased their funding just to get a physical copy of the DVD.

 

At the same time, I'm all for keeping businesses accountable. Let's just hope the physical reward makes up for this screw-up.

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The only way the physical DVD can be remedied is to ship a blank DVD, a DVD writer and the digital link so that we can burn it ourselves. There, problem solved.

 

Or they can delay shipping the game until the DVD is done. So everyone gets the game later.

 

Although if I remember correctly, the DVD and the whole documentary wasn't even in the initial offerings when the kickstarter was published. It just became a free add on near the end of the drive. So...I don't really understand outrage. I find it hard to believe that people increased their funding just to get a physical copy of the DVD.

 

At the same time, I'm all for keeping businesses accountable. Let's just hope the physical reward makes up for this screw-up.

 

It looks like the physical copy of the 'Making of' DVD doesn't even kick in until the $140 level. For contributing that much, I think they are entitled to some special treatment.

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Not at all happy with the Blu-ray "turning into" a digital reward... :verymad:

 

... in other words:

 

We were faced with a bit of a dilemma when it came to the full documentary footage. In order to provide a physical copy of the documentary when the game shipped, we would be unable to show the final leg of production in order to have time to print all of the discs and packaging decided to go cheap because Paradox wants to maximize their profits at the expense of KS backers like me.
 
 

 

Perhaps I'm being cynical but changing physical rewards to digital means less expense for their publishing "partners" even though backers (a.k.a. "old-school box collectors") like myself spent hundreds of dollars, above and beyond, for those physical pieces... I HATE digital downloads/ rewards/ etc. It stinks of being cheap and really not having the person own it. Yes, the core game matters most but I, and others I'm sure, put in a lot more than most would pay for any game with the promise of certain extras.

 

Just disappointed but we'll see what else changes before release...

 

You're not being cynical, you're being tinfoil-hat-conspiracy-nut-cracy whose convinced that the profits of a tangentially relevant publisher is to blame for Obsidian wanting to deliver the best content they can to us, their fans, even if that means changing the method of that delivery. 

 

 

Regardless as to their actual motive for "changing the method of delivery", it is a change from what was originally promised and people paid for. Those who choose digital only could care less, I get that, but many spent much larger sums for promised physical rewards. I've backed many games on KS because of the promise for a return to "old school" games including the promise of "old school" boxes full of feelies/ trinkets/ extras that we used to get back in the day.

 

I'm just one of those grumpy old gamers that doesn't feel like I own anything that is digitally delivered. I want the physical boxed game on my shelf. :bat:

 

 

And you're getting the damn physical box with a large bunch of trinkets. What you're not getting a physical copy of is a minor bonus thrown in towards the second half of the Kickstarter campaign. 

 

I'm not refuting that this is a Obsidian straight up changing part of the rewards for Kickstarter backers. What I'm saying is that they have some very, very good reasons for it, and it's rather unreasonable to get up into arms over it given how small a part of the actual product is being affected. 

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It's very hard to get what your entire point is when you muddy the waters with things like extra cost to the backers when no one said anything of the sort.

*shrug*... I just deduced it was feasible, is all. I don't have to only talk about things other people have already posited. I can think up my own stuff, you know. Can't help it that an idea you or someone else didn't already present somehow muddies the waters of comprehension for you. That's not my intention. I'm just trying to share my part in the discussion. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

I'll just pretend that instead of acting like it's somehow obvious that I'm full of nonsense simply because you didn't immediately understand my point, that you actually asked "what made you think of that?"

 

Well, I'm glad you pretend-asked! See, in the initial Kickstarter, they listed "include an extra such-and-such ($20 or $25, I think?) for international shipping." What is that? An extra cost. What did they do with it? Mitigate it by diverting extra cost to the backers whose reward-fulfillment incurred that extra cost.

 

So, it's not even really true that "no one" said anything about extra cost to the backers, really, since Obsidian already presented the idea of extra cost for reward fulfillment shifting (at least partially) to an extra cost to the backers. So, it's not exactly preposterous or arbitrary to suppose that they might, hypothetically, charge more if they had to make an extra shipment to a couple thousand people.

 

And there ya have it. I'm glad you've expressed such an interest in productive discussion, Hiro, and that you're so incredibly tolerant of perspectives and ideas that differ from your own immediate thoughts. ^_^

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Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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Regardless as to their actual motive for "changing the method of delivery", it is a change from what was originally promised and people paid for. Those who choose digital only could care less, I get that, but many spent much larger sums for promised physical rewards. I've backed many games on KS because of the promise for a return to "old school" games including the promise of "old school" boxes full of feelies/ trinkets/ extras that we used to get back in the day.

To clarify things, Kickstarter is not a store. You didn't pay for a product that you are now not receiving. You paid for the game to be created.

 

Obsidian has decided - unfortunately for you and me both - that in order to fulfill the spirit of the pledge rewards that they'll be going to a digital distribution for one of the promised physical items and adding in a bonus unknown physical item to make up the difference.

 

I'm just one of those grumpy old gamers that doesn't feel like I own anything that is digitally delivered. I want the physical boxed game on my shelf. :bat:

 

I pledged for physical rewards simply because I don't have a good way to do anything online other than post to simple message boards anymore. And that's not going to change without me moving locations, it seems. So there were already certain digital rewards in my pledge that would never be accessible; in that sense I'm a bit disappointed that one of the physical rewards that I as looking forward to has now moved into that glorious "unachievable" state as several others.

 

But at the end of the day, I paid to make the game. Having the game is my reward, the other stuff is just gravy.

 

The only way the physical DVD can be remedied is to ship a blank DVD, a DVD writer and the digital link so that we can burn it ourselves. There, problem solved.

Not really, I have blank DVDs. A connection that would actually download a media file of any length is what I lack. If Obs can put that in my shipment, I'd appreciate it. ;)

Edited by Amentep
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People here really like to white-knight for Obsidian don't they. They are big boys and can defend them selves without the need for you people jumping at the throat of anyone who has anything remotely negative to say.

 

Take this documentary thing, Obsidian didn't have enough foresight to consider that the documentary would take longer to make then the game did, so they promised it as a physical copy. That is their mistake plain and simple, people have a right to be miffed about it. It may not matter to you but it matters to someone else. Live and let live as they say.

 

But no, some people here always have to go full retard.

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People here really like to white-knight for Obsidian don't they. They are big boys and can defend them selves without the need for you people jumping at the throat of anyone who has anything remotely negative to say.

 

Take this documentary thing, Obsidian didn't have enough foresight to consider that the documentary would take longer to make then the game did, so they promised it as a physical copy. That is their mistake plain and simple, people have a right to be miffed about it. It may not matter to you but it matters to someone else. Live and let live as they say.

 

But no, some people here always have to go full retard.

 

Um ok if somebody has a problem with something somebody said they have a right to say something.  Even regardless of whether there is some compelling need to defend poor voiceless game developers.  I mean what they say may be full retard but simply having an opinion on something somebody said about Obsidian isn't necessarily that.

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Um ok if somebody has a problem with something somebody said they have a right to say something.  Even regardless of whether there is some compelling need to defend poor voiceless game developers.  I mean what they say may be full retard but simply having an opinion on something somebody said about Obsidian isn't necessarily that.

 

I don't have a problem with people replying and voicing their opinions. What I have a problem with is the white-knighting and jumping at peoples throats.

Edited by Sarex
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Um ok if somebody has a problem with something somebody said they have a right to say something.  Even regardless of whether there is some compelling need to defend poor voiceless game developers.  I mean what they say may be full retard but simply having an opinion on something somebody said about Obsidian isn't necessarily that.

 

I don't have a problem with people replying and voicing their opinions. What I have a problem with is the white-knighting and jumping at peoples throats.

 

 

Yet you are eager to white-knight for those whose throats are endangered by the obsidian white knights. Curious.

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"Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says."

 

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I don't have a problem with people replying and voicing their opinions. What I have a problem with is the white-knighting and jumping at peoples throats.

AKA "I have no problem with people replying and voicing their opinions... as long as their opinions aren't in any way in favor of Obsidian's decision."

 

It's totally fine to call bullpoop, but if you simply observe that it may not be bullpoop, suddenly you're a "white knight."

 

"Hello, my dear princess... I can see you're out for a stroll in the rain!"

*Knight rides up* "Actually, it isn't raining right now."

"Ahhh, a WHITE knight, I see! Here to defend this fair maiden?"

"... Ummm, sure, dude. Look, it's not raining, alright?" *rides off*

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Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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^ There is. It was in a recent update. Can't remember what the thing's called, though. But it'll list all manner of creature info, and even fill in data about the creatures (typical HP, natural armor ratings, etc.) as you fight them and learn such things. ^_^

Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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*shrug*... I just deduced it was feasible, is all. I don't have to only talk about things other people have already posited. I can think up my own stuff, you know. Can't help it that an idea you or someone else didn't already present somehow muddies the waters of comprehension for you. That's not my intention. I'm just trying to share my part in the discussion. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

So you just like to make up random stuff that has no relevance to the topic at hand, go off on weird WTF tangents and try and argue those points. And when I say no one ever mentioned anything that you're posting about, your excuse is, "I can think up my own stuff". And it wasn't me or other people that muddied the waters. It WAS YOU making up random stuff that no one brought up. Sounds like that is your intention. Otherwise stop making up this random stuff that no one brought up.

 

 

I'll just pretend that instead of acting like it's somehow obvious that I'm full of nonsense simply because you didn't immediately understand my point, that you actually asked "what made you think of that?"

 

Well, I'm glad you pretend-asked! See, in the initial Kickstarter, they listed "include an extra such-and-such ($20 or $25, I think?) for international shipping." What is that? An extra cost. What did they do with it? Mitigate it by diverting extra cost to the backers whose reward-fulfillment incurred that extra cost.

 

 

Why should I ask why you are bringing up nonsense? Why should I go off on these weird nonsensical irrelevant tangents of yours? I don't want to go down that road of yours. I wan't to nip your nonsense in the bud.

 

And there we have it. You make up nonsense. And then you make up nonsense questions thinking others will ask them and you prepare a nonsense answer in preparation for it. Guess what? We're not all like you. When people like me see your nonsense, we try to shut it down.

 

So, it's not even really true that "no one" said anything about extra cost to the backers, really, since Obsidian already presented the idea of extra cost for reward fulfillment shifting (at least partially) to an extra cost to the backers. So, it's not exactly preposterous or arbitrary to suppose that they might, hypothetically, charge more if they had to make an extra shipment to a couple thousand people.

 

And there ya have it. I'm glad you've expressed such an interest in productive discussion, Hiro, and that you're so incredibly tolerant of perspectives and ideas that differ from your own immediate thoughts. ^_^

 

And more nonsense. There's no postage for domestic US residents. So you would have quite a few being not charged to backers. Just because postage is charged for an international backer for a CE doesn't mean a dvd posted out later would also be charged.

 

And there you have it. I'm glad you've shown us your posting style and how you like to make stuff up, go on random weird tangents and then try and second guess other people by making up nonsense questions for us and then try and prepare answers for those questions you'll never receive. Because we don't like talking nonsensical made up rubbish. :)

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Yet you are eager to white-knight for those whose throats are endangered by the obsidian white knights. Curious.

 

I think you and I don't have the same definition of what white-knighting is.

 

AKA "I have no problem with people replying and voicing their opinions... as long as their opinions aren't in any way in favor of Obsidian's decision."

 

It's totally fine to call bullpoop, but if you simply observe that it may not be bullpoop, suddenly you're a "white knight."

 

"Hello, my dear princess... I can see you're out for a stroll in the rain!"

*Knight rides up* "Actually, it isn't raining right now."

"Ahhh, a WHITE knight, I see! Here to defend this fair maiden?"

"... Ummm, sure, dude. Look, it's not raining, alright?" *rides off*

 

 

What are you even talking about. Obsidian promised physical copies and went back on it it. How is that not raining? Dude I will say this for a 100th time, lay off the metaphors you suck at them.

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So you just like to make up random stuff that has no relevance to the topic at hand, go off on weird WTF tangents and try and argue those points.

No, I just like to observe possibilities that are perfectly relevant to the discussion. International shipping is an extra shipping cost, and Obsidian charged for it. Shipping a 2nd shipment just for documentaries, instead of the single shipment they were planning is an additional shipping cost.

 

Just because that doesn't make sense to you for some reason doesn't mean I'm going to go around being ashamed of myself and rethink my whole thought process or something.

 

I don't know why you have such narrow boundaries in a discussion, and why someone presenting an idea you don't condone automatically equals "WTF/completely irrelevant" issues and gets you all worked up. It's baffling.

 

You're right that they don't have to charge us for that 2nd shipment. And you're right that Flow wasn't initially describing the passing of that cost on to customers. I apologize for causing confusion with my response, but I was simply observing a possibility, and have not argued against either of those points this whole time. Maybe take it down a notch, Hiro.

 

What are you even talking about. Obsidian promised physical copies and went back on it it. How is that not raining? Dude I will say this for a 100th time, lay off the metaphors you suck at them.

Way to be an adult about it, Sarex.

 

There was a reason they've made the decision they have, and they're still delivering the documentary, AND giving us another freebie that is yet unknown. It could be a free trial for high-speed satellite internet for all we know. It's as simple as that.

 

You can call it defending Obsidian, and I'll keep calling it "pointing out stuff that's true that you happen to not like because it doesn't allow your complaints to feel justified."

Edited by Lephys
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Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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I hope you guys have more to show us than elementals, kobolds and mindflayers. I mean, visually they look great, especially the elementals, but I was hoping for more originality than variations on a theme. Please tell me there are more creatures in the world than just bipedal humanoids. It's one of those areas where you could have stunned me with your creativity but didn't. I was just hoping for some more originality.

 

Now, sure, you've not shown me your whole bestiary, but you did select these specific three for your presentation. Well I'm unimpressed.

Edited by JFSOCC
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Remember: Argue the point, not the person. Remain polite and constructive. Friendly forums have friendly debate. There's no shame in being wrong. If you don't have something to add, don't post for the sake of it. And don't be afraid to post thoughts you are uncertain about, that's what discussion is for.
---
Pet threads, everyone has them. I love imagining Gods, Monsters, Factions and Weapons.

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