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Hello!

So looks like PoE role-system will have something like D&D feats or SPECIAL perks to customize your character.

Let’s speculate what these feats could be!

 

In general I would like to see the feats that will allow to customize the same class few different ways:

 

General (no class restrictions):

- Survivability: More armor, hit points, saving throws, regeneration possibly.

- Offensive: Better to hit and damage.

- More to be done.

 

Fighters:

- Sword & board style: Generic balanced fighter. Some blocking\deflection improvements, some one-handed damage and to hit.

- Two-handed way: Two-handed weapons damage improvements, some aoe damage around the target, damage and to hit bonuses, some special attacks like disarm and knockdown.

- One-handed without a shield or heavy armor: Master-duelist style combat, impressive special attacks that weaken the target, improved mobility over the battlefield, dodge. Made his deflection somehow depends on its to hit.

- Dual weapons: Not sure it will be in the game, but I would like to see it.

- Ranged: Way of the sniper. Bows, crossbows, firearms.

- Vanguard\Tank\Bodyguard: Pure defense specialist - taunts, shield and heavy armor oriented feats. Currently this is what PoE fighter is (but I have seen no taunts).

 

Barbarians:

- Berserker way: Barbarians who heavily depends on frenzy and mastered it to be a powerful and fearsome weapon.

- Tribal defender way: A barbarian’s way of tanking. There are no shields, deflection and canny tricks like regular fighters do, there is rather a damage soaking due to huge hit points buffer and natural toughness. Big and ugly hulk that could completely ignore some arrows stick up his shoulder and will only notice this fact if somebody else will tell him. :)

- More ways to be done.

 

Druids:

- Wild Shape fighter: Wild shape improvements - different bonuses while shaped, new more powerful shapes that aren't available to other druids. This way you can make your druid a capable frontline fighter, a tank and even a hunter-killer.

- Offensive Spellcasting: Improvements to druid’s offensive spellcasting. A way to make an offensive spelcaster.

- Defensive Spellcasting: Defensive\Buffing\Healing spells improvements. The support way.

- More ways to be done.

 

Here are few feat ideas to start with:

 

General:

 

Weapon Finesse

Effect: When wielding light weapons (short swords, daggers, etc...) character could use its dexterity score (if it's higher than its strength) to determine to hit bonus.

Requirements: Dexterity score of X or higher.

Note: I don't know if strength will give any to hit bonuses in PoE, but usually it does in other games. If this is not the case for PoE - just forget this idea.

 

Druid:

 

Predator Grace

Effect: Being shape-shifted character gains +X dexterity and +Y movement speed.

Requirements: An ability to shape-shift (be a Druid obviously).

 

Predator Senses

Effect: Being shifted character gains its view range extended or anything else that will allow them to detect other creatures better (possibly show them on the minimap).

Requirements: Predator Grace feat.

 

Predator Might

Effect: Damage bonus while shifted.

Requirements: Predator Grace feat.

 

Predator Instincts

Effect: Being shape-shifted character gains to hit and critical chance bonuses.

Requirements: Predator Grace and Predator Senses feats.

 

Sabre-Toothed tiger Form

Effect: Character gains ability to shape-shift into powerful and fearsome primal hunter.

Requirements: Druid level X or higher, Predator Might feat.

 

Barbarian:

 

Powerful Frenzy

Effect: Character gains strength and constitution bonuses while frenzied.

Requirements: Frenzy.

 

Lingering Frenzy

Effect: Frenzy lasts longer (possibly allow taking this feat few times with cumulative effect?).

Requirements: Frenzy.

 

Fearsome Frenzy

Effect: Shout a fearsome battlecry entering a frenzy mode that will make surrounding enemies shaken (combat penalties) and even possibly make them flee in terror if they fail the will defense.

Requirements: Powerful Frenzy feat.

 

Vigorous Frenzy

Effect: Increased stamina and health regeneration while frenzied.

Requirements: Powerful Frenzy feat.

 

Indomitable Frenzy

Effect: Huge will defense bonus while frenzied.

Requirements: Powerful Frenzy.

 

Fight to Death (Ragnarok)

Effect: Huge damage and to hit bonus, immunity to control effects, cannot die until ability ends, but falls whacked out with 1 hit point left after that.

Requirements: High level barbarian.

Note: Barbarian rush into battle like it is the final battle between good and evil and there is no tomorrow.

 

Natural Toughness

Effect: Hit points bonus, let’s say 20% more each level up.

Requirements: Barbarians, constitution score of X or higher.

 

Scarred Skin

Effect: Character gains some damage reduction.

Requirements: Barbarian, constitution score of X or higher.

 

Feel no Pain

Effect: Bonus to fortitude defense.

Requirements: Scarred Skin.

 

Runic Skin

Effect: Some magic resistance.

Requirements: Natural Toughness, Scarred Skin, Feel no Pain, Barbarian level X or higher.

Note: There are ancient, dangerous and painful shamanic rituals that allow covering creature skin with magical runic tattoo that will protect against evil magic. Possibly frenzy should increase this effect.

 

Defend the Tribe

Effect: Huge defensive bonuses while frenzied.

Requirements: Natural Toughness, Scarred Skin, Feel no Pain, Runic Skin. This feat should only be available for barbarians that are invested greatly into the defensive feats line.

 

P.S.

Obsidian guys, in case you'll find useful some of these ideas - you can use it free of any charge and without any limitations. :)

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Yeah, all accuracy is already based on Dexterity in PoE. :)

 

As for the weapon-style ones, I think Josh recently commented on how they'd like to have feats(Talents in PoE) for specific fighting styles like that, but they don't know if they will or not (comes down to time and resources after they finish what's already on the agenda/schedule). We will be able to dual-wield, and such, though. Heck, we might even be able to dual-wield shields... :)

Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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Yeah, all accuracy is already based on Dexterity in PoE. :)

 

As for the weapon-style ones, I think Josh recently commented on how they'd like to have feats(Talents in PoE) for specific fighting styles like that, but they don't know if they will or not (comes down to time and resources after they finish what's already on the agenda/schedule). We will be able to dual-wield, and such, though. Heck, we might even be able to dual-wield shields... :)

Well, personally I feel it's good idea to allow to use different basic abilities to calculate accuracy, few of them at least - dexterity (default) and might (optional, unlocked by the feats\perks).

At least for some types of weapon - heavy two handed swords and axes for example. That will allow to build different fighter type characters with the same accuracy (and I believe it's must have for any melee character).

So I could imagine a nimble fighter (dexterity) with a sword, dagger or bow (or even a pair of weapons) that will have good reflex defense and will be able to use any weapon with good accuracy. And the other one warrior type - big and brute that only could have good accuracy with two-handed weapon, pour reflex defense and deflection (he is bound to two-handed weapons, so no shields) but in exchange he gains better damage output with 2handed weapons and fortitude defense.

The might-based warrior type is perfectly feats barbarians IMHO. :)

Edited by konst3d
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Few Fighter, sword + shield feats ideas.

 

Note: AFAIK there is no such thing like shield block in PoE (just deflection bonus), but you could emulate this: If the attack does NOT hit the character and this character have a shield equipped you make attack calculation once again (using the same values), but WITHOUT a shield deflection bonus - if this attack is hit the character, than obviously it was blocked by the shield.
Now you could use this knowledge to do thing like playing "shield-knock" sound, play some character blocking animation and so on...

 

Name: Shield Specialist (Passive)
Effect:
Some deflection bonus while shield is equipped (possibly that should scale with character level). Also possibly some fortitude defense bonus.
Requirements: Fighter.

 

Name: Shield Bash (Active)
Effect: Warrior uses his shield to make a sudden strike that could make the enemy shaken (accuracy and deflection penalty).
Requirements: Shield Specialist.

 

Name: Improved Shield Bash (Active)
Effect: The same but also a chance to knockdown (or stun) the target on failed fortitude defense.
Requirements: Shield Bash.

 

Name: Shield Assault (Active)
Effect: Covering with his shield warrior could sprint across the battlefield to the distant target. If the target is an enemy - it receives the Improved Shield Bash effect. You can also target any free area on the ground and just "travel" here this way. Oh, and also you gain some deflection bonus against attacks of engagement\disengagement.
Requirements: Improved Shield Bash.

 

Name: Improved Shield Assault (Active)
Effect: Basically the same but now you also do some damage against enemies you hit on your way and possibly you have a chance to knock them down.
Requirements: Shield Assault.

 

Name: Defensive Stance (Mode)
Effect: Penalty to offense (damage? accuracy? hit rate?) but bonus to deflection and fortitude.
Requirements: Shield Specialist.

 

Name: Bodyguard Stance (Mode)
Effect: Allies staying adjacent receive some of your shield deflection bonus. In exchange fighter suffers accuracy or damage penalty.
Requirements: Defensive Stance.
Note: Should not stack with Phalanx Training effect.

 

Name: Improved Bodyguard Stance (Mode)
Effect: Now allies gain full shield deflection bonus.
Requirements: Bodyguard Stance.
Note: Should not stack with Phalanx Training effect.

 

Name: Phalanx Training (Passive)
Effect: If there are other character with Phalanx Training and shield staying adjacent - both have the deflection bonus.
Note: Should not stack with Bodyguard Stance effect.

 

More to be done.

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This thread might be a little premature, considering we don't really know the nitty-gritty of character creation and progression yet. The beta is on its way, though, and Talents are something Obsidian is expecting a lot of feedback on. Give it six weeks, and we'll know a lot more.

 

I'm pretty sure Obsidian said they'd shy away from (long) Talent-chains. (The "Requirement: [previous Talent]" part.) I think they're right in doing so - if Talents are mostly there to widen build options and sprinkle some customization on your character, it doesn't help to lock down half or more of your Talent choices because you want to be "Good with Shields".

 

As another side note, why are your shield talents only available to Fighters? I don't see why it couldn't work on other classes. More useful on a frontline fighter than a wizard? Yeah, sure - but why should that restrict the wizard's options? I kinda want to nitpick a lot of other details in your examples, but I could be here all day, and it would kinda defeat the purpose of having fun with thinking up Talents and sharing them.

So here are two of my Talent Ideas. (Which might already exist, who knows?)

 

Look Ma, I'm a Wizard!
Like a wizard, when using an implement (Wand, Rod or Sceptre) as a weapon, cause a small area of effect Blast around the target.
Requirements: Not a Wizard.

 

Specialized Defense (or you know, something more fun sounding.)
Choose one of your Fortitude, Reflex or Will defenses. Increase this defense by 20, but decrease the other two by 5.

Edited by Ark Evensong
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This thread might be a little premature, considering we don't really know the nitty-gritty of character creation and progression yet. The beta is on its way, though, and Talents are something Obsidian is expecting a lot of feedback on. Give it six weeks, and we'll know a lot more.

This topic is more about "let's dream what kind of feats you would like to see in this game" then anything else. Sorry if I didn't make this clear, my english kinda sucks. :(

 

 

I'm pretty sure Obsidian said they'd shy away from (long) Talent-chains. (The "Requirement: [previous Talent]" part.) I think they're right in doing so - if Talents are mostly there to widen build options and sprinkle some customization on your character, it doesn't help to lock down half or more of your Talent choices because you want to be "Good with Shields".

Possibly you (and obsidian) are right, but I feel there should be some really powerful talents that should have some requirements to take.

Well, it's looks not right for me, if any wizard or rogue could spent one single talent\feat point and gain an ability to knockdown with great sword all adjacent enemies around him or do some other powerful combat trick.

Just my opinion however, and any requirement here are mostly a drafts\suggestions\ideas (like anything other).

 

 

As another side note, why are your shield talents only available to Fighters? I don't see why it couldn't work on other classes. More useful on a frontline fighter than a wizard? Yeah, sure - but why should that restrict the wizard's options? I kinda want to nitpick a lot of other details in your examples, but I could be here all day, and it would kinda defeat the purpose of having fun with thinking up Talents and sharing them.

Why fighter only - this is good question, I have also asked it myself.

And here is my answer:

1. Weapon\combat-style talents is a result of a long practice with the given weapon, not a divine gift or an innate ability, or some trick you have seen once and now you are able to reproduce it. Here is why there are "talent-chains": first you learn how to use a shield for protecting youself, than - how to hit an enemy with it, than how to run and hit anybody on your way...

2. Fighters are the most combat oriented class out there. Moreover, they have nothing except their combat prowess and weapon mastery. They shouldn't split their training to diplomacy or faith like paladins, or to pets like rangers should do. Also they have nothing except their sword & board to count on - no pets, no divine powers, no frenzy. So I believe the fighters are the class that should take the most from any weapon or combat style just to survive on the battlefiled.

Here is why I decided to restrict these feats to fighters.

Any wizard or druid should possibly be able take a shield and have its deflection bonus. But you have to train for years to be able to rush it through the battlefield knocking down anybody you hit on the way.

So fighters are the only class that have the most advanced combat styles and take the most from almost any weapon in game. There are barbarians for sure that are also good at frontline, but the source of their abilities is rather innate brute power, toughness and wild frenzy.

About a wizards and shields - I think there should be some general feats\perks that will allow your wizard to equip the shield and even to learn some shield tricks, BUT it should be considerable less powerful then fighter shield talents.

 

P.S.

I don't mind you or anybody else criticize any of my ideas. It's just some unpolished thoughts and they deserve to be criticized.   :)

Edited by konst3d
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I'd guess that the talents available to every class are almost exclusively passive buffs or combat modes at best.

 

In the DnD games using 3E the active talents are heavily tied to the fighter class (knockdown, aim: body part, whirlwind attack) so I'd guess that the combat classes in PoE just have these kind of abilites built in on lvl up of the respectice classes in order to differentiate them better (whats the point of giving everyone the same active ability?).

 

As far as I understand the design goals, talents would best be used to differentiate different builds and thats probably achieved most easily if you just give buffs to mechanics that are most often used in different roles (better healing, better evasion, better handling of certain weapons, better summons, better flanking, etc).

 

Also, note that the plan of the devs is to lock talents behind OR conditions. So even a powerful attack skill can be just using up one talent point if you lock it beneath (18 Might OR LVL 10). I don't think that they will differentiate between physical and magical attacks as even Might, the attribute governing attack strength, concerns both. Therefore its not a problem if a class has access to a powerful talent - it either paid its price in attributes or waited an apropiate time. So thats probably a reason why there won't be long talent lines.

Edited by Doppelschwert
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Well, personally I feel it's good idea to allow to use different basic abilities to calculate accuracy, few of them at least - dexterity (default) and might (optional, unlocked by the feats\perks).

At least for some types of weapon - heavy two handed swords and axes for example. That will allow to build different fighter type characters with the same accuracy (and I believe it's must have for any melee character).

So I could imagine a nimble fighter (dexterity) with a sword, dagger or bow (or even a pair of weapons) that will have good reflex defense and will be able to use any weapon with good accuracy. And the other one warrior type - big and brute that only could have good accuracy with two-handed weapon, pour reflex defense and deflection (he is bound to two-handed weapons, so no shields) but in exchange he gains better damage output with 2handed weapons and fortitude defense.

The might-based warrior type is perfectly feats barbarians IMHO. :)

I kind of agree. I do think that allowing for various factors (and not JUST Dex) to ultimately decide the final result that is your Accuracy rating is a very good idea, but I honestly don't think just switching to something else is a good idea. Dexterity is sort of fundamentally representative of coordination (amongst other things). So, no matter how strong you are, or wise you are (spells and the like, for example, being often based purely on mental stats), if you can't see something, then "aim" accurately at that thing (coordinate your senses of detection with your ability to direct force, whether mental or magic or physical, etc.), you're not going to have good aim. Some of the strongest people in the world can have horrible balance and hand-eye coordination, lack of depth-perception, etc.

 

But, like I said, I would like for things to affect it. Maybe if you've got a giant two-handed sword, and like 7 Might, you can only use it at 70% Accuracy. So, even if your DEX is a million, it doesn't just automatically make you flawlessly accurate with whatever weapon you're wielding.

 

A system with various contributing factors tends to provide a lot more interesting results in a variety of situations (and after a variety of different actions/efforts/choices) than one that's more stagnant. So, I definitely hope we see some stuff like that.

 

I definitely hate the Diablo-style "You only have 44 Strength, and you need 45 Strength to even WIELD this weapon" hard pre-requisites. I mean, I guess they sort of work in Diablo, because it's not really claiming much simulation. But, in a regular RPG, it's a little silly. "You can't even use this sword enough to THROW it at an enemy and harm them to any degree whatsoever, but now that you gained a point of Strength, you can flawlessly wield it like a boss! 8D!" Too rigid. Wayyyy too rigid.

Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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A system with various contributing factors tends to provide a lot more interesting results in a variety of situations (and after a variety of different actions/efforts/choices) than one that's more stagnant. So, I definitely hope we see some stuff like that.

 

You do realize that this devalues every factor at the same rate, do you?

The feat 'intuitive strike' (or whatever it's called) gives a character in DnD 3.5 the ability to use his wisdom modificator as an attack bonus.

Give this to a monk and basically everything he relies on is governed by wisdom only: Attack Bonus, Armor Class, DC of class abilities, Will Save.

Sure, you could also use strength for attack bonus or dexterity for armor class, but why would you do that at this point?

The result is min-maxing core stats which is exactly what PoE tries to avoid (and actually accomplishes).

And min-maxing are in fact boring and not very interesting results.

Edited by Doppelschwert
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O_O... I'm not trying to be snide here, but I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. I think you might've misunderstood me? But, I'm not sure exactly where/how, so I don't know how/what to clarify.

 

I wasn't talking about having all the attributes provide some positive modifier for all the mechanical values in the game, if that helps at all. All I was talking about, to put it simply, was having more than just a single factor to decide something like Accuracy. I think a game in which character A and character B can both have 15 DEX, but still have differing Accuracy ratings with various weapons and/or in various circumstances is a lot more interesting than one in which they both have the same Accuracy ratings no matter what, just to present the simplest example of the idea that I can.

 

I'm aware that we already know that, in PoE, at the very least, Fighters get an Accuracy bonus with melee weapons. Not to mention weapon-set proficiencies. So, I'd figure there are probably other modifiers, as well, throughout the entirety of the game, than just one or two Fighter things. But, the "Might could let you wield a huge weapon with 100% effectiveness instead of lesser effectiveness" bit was just an example of the type of thing that I think makes the system more interesting.

 

You can have a character with awesome DEX, but lesser MIG, and he can wield a giant weapon if he needs to (maybe you need the raw damage of that weapon to get through some armor's damage threshold, or you need the damage-type of that weapon or something, OR you need the greater hit percentage more than you need the extra damage, etc.), but the outcome is different than if he were a different character with more MIG and less of some other stat.

 

Variety is the spice of life. :)

Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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I feel the DEX as an only source of accuracy is a bit unnatural. Ok, it's an eye - hand coordination value and definitely you can't be to accurate without this, but...
As Lephys did say - what is if your MIG (hand) is too low and you barely able to hold this big and ugly sword? Will you be able to make any accurate strikes with this?
What if your perception (eye) is so low you barely see the opponent?
Yeah, the right way is possibly to introduce some minimal MIG and PER requirements for weapons. Now huge great axe will require let's say 10 MIG to use it well, if you have not enough MIG - you are still able to use it, but you suffer some accuracy penalty, the bigger the difference - the bigger penalty you suffer. Weapons like bows and crossbows could possibly have both MIG and PER requirements.
Moreover if your MIG and PER is considerable higher than required - you can gain some accuracy bonus (debatable, just an idea).
So at least, your accuracy depends on MIG, PER and DEX.
And weapons of different types have different MIG\PER\DEX requirements.
Obviously, to be accurate with huge weapons you need high MIG, high PER is required to use ranged weapons, DEX is a main factor for some light weapons as daggers and short swords.
So finally, you could introduce minimal MIG\PER\DEX for weapons, a system of penalties and bonuses depending on character MIG\PER\DEX values.
Or, you could just say that huge 2handed weapons use MIG for accuracy calculation, ranged uses PER, small weapons are DEX based and possibly a medium weapon could use both DEX and MIG - which is higher.
The same effect, much simplier calculation.
And now, being a fighter you aren't bound to DEX as a only source of accuracy.

 

P.S.
About D&D, Monks and 'intuitive strike' - my experience says that 'intuitive strike' monks are to weak. Yeah, you could take it and count your WIS as a primary attribute - high will save (but high level monks are anyway having mind-affecting spells immunity), AC and AB boost, what else?
Now compare it with DEX\'weapon finesse' variant - same AC, same AB, mind-affecting spells immunity, much better reflex save, tumble, hide, move silently and finally - high DEX opens a way to things like epic dodge (ignore all damage from first attack each round), expose weakness (DOT and debuff on enemy), self concealment (up to 50% chance to miss for _each_ opponent attack). Much better yeah?
Personally I think 'intuitive strike' is for druids to help his AB a bit. Clerics do already have things like divine favor\might\aid\and so on. You can create a WIS only monk with this feat but I see no point doing so.

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Ciphers, quite interesting class. Most likely this will be my first character. The ways I would like to be able to customize my cipher:

1) Melee, anyway you should melee to build your focus, but why stop than? Let's just use this focus to even better melee!
2) Spellcasting obviously.
3) Mind control. Why to melee or cast - let's just take a control over some enemy fighters and casters!
4) Animats. Ciphers are mind and soul masters and animats are souls trapped into some "vessels", right? Why not to create a powerful animat to help you in combat?
5) Necromancy... This is about souls again. There are a lot of dying enemies across the battlefield, imagine you could trap the soul inside the body and force it to obey. But this necromancy has nothing in common with skeletons\mummies\vampires, you just able to create few temporary slaves, no undead armies.

 

One more word about ciphers and animats - I think there should be something speciall about these two. As I said before, animats is souls trapped inside some objects and ciphers are a soul masters. Possibly the loss of the body could hurt the spirit somehow and left it more vulnerable to cipher abilities, but possibly even vise versa.

 

And few talent ideas (ok, let's use this term). And no requirements, mostly.

 

Name: Soul Armor (Passive)
Effect: Cipher gains deflection bonus based on amount of focus he has developed.
Note: Keep melee!

 

Name: Soul Blade (Passive)
Effect: Cipher gains accuracy and some damage bonus based on amount of focus he has developed.
Note: Even more reasons to keep melee!

 

Name: Soul Vamp (Passive)
Effect: Killing an enemy in melee range, cipher restores some of its health, stamina and focus.

 

Name: Soul Spike (Active)
Effect: Cipher uses some of his focus to create pale phantom spike of deadly energy that pierce the target body ignoring any armor and shield (melee range).

 

Name: Soul Poison (Modal)
Effect: Cipher's weapon radiates noxious pale glowing that makes each hit extremely painful and reduces target accuracy for short time.
Note: Stacks with Soul Whip. But drains more focus then Soul Whip provides.

 

Name: Suppressive Gaze (Modal)
Effect: Cipher suppresses his melee opponent will weakening his deflection.
Note: Drains focus. Melee range. Could only suppress one oponent at a time.

 

Name: Mind Over Body (Passive)
Effect: Cipher's will become so strong that he could use it to endure physical suffering. Cipher could use his INT instead of CON to determine fortitude defense.
Requirements: High intelligence.

 

Name: Mind Over Death (Passive)
Effect: Cipher could even ignore the lethal blow and keep fighting for some time after his heart stops beating.
Requirements: Very high intelligence.

 

Name: Mental Suppression (Mode)
Effect: Cipher turns on trans attacking mentally group of enemies. Depending on creature will defense it could be a) disabled (staying helpless) b) suppressed (suffers huge combat penalties) c) unaffected.
Note: You could select creatures that will be suppressed. The number of creatures depends on cipher's INT and on will defense of each creature already selected. Cipher stays helpless until this mode is on, unable to move, use other abilities and even protect him. Drains focus depending on number of creatures affected and their will.

 

Name: Mental Domination (Mode)
Effect: The same as Mental Suppression but you gain full control over the targets.
Note: More focus drain.

 

Name: Mind Link (Mode)
Effect: Cipher falls into a trance connecting allied minds into single network that allows them to act as one creature greatly improving each of them. Each ability of each party member becomes equal to higher one across the group.
Note: Cipher staying helpless for the duration. Maybe to powerful, not sure.

 

Name: Assume Direct Control (Mode\Active\Not sure)
Effect: Cipher takes direct control over the creature body temporarily suppressing the owner soul. The main difference with domination is that cipher retains all of its abilities and also gains the object abilities. You could also take the control over your party members (this way you shouldn't beat its will - let's take they are agreed :) ). You could use melee to gain focus to stay longer in this body... You could only have one creature under the direct control, in fact cipher's soul temporarely migrates into new body.
Note: Drains focus, amount depends on creature will (if it's hostile, some constant otherwise). Cipher's body layng helpless on the ground for the duration of the effect. If the subject dies under direct control effect the cipher suffers massive neural shock that left him with huge INT, will defense and focus regeneration penalties (so he mostly useless for the rest of the battle).

 

Name: Soul Cage
Effect: Puts damage over time effect on the target. If the target dies until the effect is active it becomes a zombie-animat that fights on the cipher side.
Note: Animat lifetime is short. And possibly it drains cipher's focus to stay "alive".

 

Name: Annihilate Soul
Effect: Annihilate the soul captured with Soul Cage ability with powerful surge that damages surrounding creatures and have some chance to knock them down.

 

Name: Animat Servitor
Effect: Cipher gains an animat companion.
Note: He could play a bodyguard until you are in trance or become a perfect subject to assume direct control. I could also imagine some talents that will improve it both ways.

 

More to be done.

Edited by konst3d
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Or, you could just say that huge 2handed weapons use MIG for accuracy calculation, ranged uses PER, small weapons are DEX based and possibly a medium weapon could use both DEX and MIG - which is higher.

The same effect, much simplier calculation.

And now, being a fighter you aren't bound to DEX as a only source of accuracy.

See, I prefer the multi-faceted system you described in the example prior to this. Having an entirely different stat (in this case, Might) suddenly determine your ability to hit things, in place of Dexterity, is just a change for change's sake, as it's no less unnatural. You could have a blind, clumsy Fighter who's freakishly muscley, and he's be the most accurate guy in the universe, able to stab the wings off a fly with his greatsword.

 

Having Dex always serve as the foundation for accuracy is the best approach, methinks. The effects of other stats on various specific scenarios offers a lot of great variety to things, while you still know that a low-Dex character is pretty much going to be less accurate, in general, than a high-Dex character.

 

There's plenty of room for supplemental effects, though. Like we said, Might's effect on heavier weapons. You could have Perception, for example, affect ranged-weapon range -- if you have maximum Dex, but low Perception, your accuracy would start dropping off at about 20 feet, whereas, if you have high Perception as well, you'd maintain full accuracy until, say, 50 feet. With that, you get this dynamic:

 

One archer can have 20 Dexterity but only 10 Perception (just example numbers -- high DEX and lower PER) and have a 100% chance to hit foe X at 20 feet, but only a 60% chance to hit the same foe at 50 feet. While, another archer could have 10 Dexterity and 20 Perception, and maybe he'd only have a 75% chance to hit that very same foe at 20 feet, but he might STILL have a 75% chance (as opposed to the first guy's 60%) to hit that foe at 50 feet. Thus, you've built one archer to work better at sniping, while the other's way better at shorter-ranged combat, even with the same class and weapon equipped.

 

That's the kind of stuff I love to see stats allow for. I mean, combat damage is already treated that way. You have a base damage value, then it gets modified by a lot of things before the final damage number pops out. You do 30 damage, because of your Might and your weapon. That guy has low defense? Well, you more often get critical hits, so you deal more than that. That guy has 20 armor? Well, you don't deal as much. You're dealing shock damage? Well, you deal more again. Etc.

 

You don't have to change what fundamentally determines the base damage. You just allow for various factors to alter it in varying circumstances. That's pretty much the foundation of allowing for tactics.

 

Annnnywho, I digress a little, but I like it when feats and traits do the same thing.

 

I'll give an example of the worst thing I think a feats/traits system can do, and that's solely adjust numerical values. When every single feat is "10 more damage" or "15 more accuracy" or "bigger AOE circles", etc. I think there's a problem. Now, it's a bit different if it's "+X damage under such-and-such circumstances," because that gives you the opportunity to set up those circumstances, depending on what they are.

 

I think the more a bonus supports something you can actively make happen (with effort), the better it is, as opposed to just affecting passive sets of circumstances.

Edited by Lephys

Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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2Lephys

I'm mostly agreed with everything you have said about accuracy, dexterity, might and perception. The only thing that confuses me a bit is that how complicated thing become. You have a heavy crossbow let's say. It is heavy enough to have some MIG requirements, so you should calc an accuracy penalty (or even a bonus - not sure) based on the difference with your actual MIG. Now at the battlefield you have to calc how far your target is and calculate your accuracy penalty\bonus coming from PER. And also you have to combine these all with your base DEX-provided accuracy. And also, this way, DEX become a 'must have' for any melee or ranged character - you basically can’t hit anybody without good DEX and there are nothing to replace it with. But well, possibly it's the most realistic approach out there, finally 'accuracy' is very complicated thing and it depends on many different things starting with your body condition and ending with battlefield illumination (day\night) and weather (rain\snow\mist\sand storm).

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O_O... I'm not trying to be snide here, but I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. I think you might've misunderstood me? But, I'm not sure exactly where/how, so I don't know how/what to clarify.

 

I wasn't talking about having all the attributes provide some positive modifier for all the mechanical values in the game, if that helps at all. All I was talking about, to put it simply, was having more than just a single factor to decide something like Accuracy. I think a game in which character A and character B can both have 15 DEX, but still have differing Accuracy ratings with various weapons and/or in various circumstances is a lot more interesting than one in which they both have the same Accuracy ratings no matter what, just to present the simplest example of the idea that I can.

 

I'm aware that we already know that, in PoE, at the very least, Fighters get an Accuracy bonus with melee weapons. Not to mention weapon-set proficiencies. So, I'd figure there are probably other modifiers, as well, throughout the entirety of the game, than just one or two Fighter things. But, the "Might could let you wield a huge weapon with 100% effectiveness instead of lesser effectiveness" bit was just an example of the type of thing that I think makes the system more interesting.

 

You can have a character with awesome DEX, but lesser MIG, and he can wield a giant weapon if he needs to (maybe you need the raw damage of that weapon to get through some armor's damage threshold, or you need the damage-type of that weapon or something, OR you need the greater hit percentage more than you need the extra damage, etc.), but the outcome is different than if he were a different character with more MIG and less of some other stat.

 

Variety is the spice of life. :)

 

You were suggesting that different attributes factor into the same derived stat. Your example consisted of Dexterity and Might factoring into Accuracy. In this situation, you usually become indifferent to which attribute to increase in order to increase accuracy. This becomes clear in systems like Arcanum where the derived stats grow in a linear rate with the attributes, but even in your example where we have a product ( modification(might)*accuracy(dex) ) you can skip one of the attributes (although the incentive to just go for one attribute is smaller in your example).

The result is that when you have to raise an attribute, you don't need to consider between dexterity and might anymore when it comes to accuracy so your decision becomes actually easier.

If, in a classic setting, strength governed chance to hit and damage and dexterity governed chance to hit and evasion, the decision boils down to damage versus evasion. If you then feel like you don't ever need evasion because you have a tough armor, the decision becomes a no-brainer.

However, if the attributes are evenly spread in function, then there is IMO a greater incentive to spread your points accordingly. If strenght only governs damage and dexterity only governs to hit and evasion, then you probably need both to keep being effective at hitting things.

 

Don't get me wrong, you can have such a system and it works, but this is a matter of preference. The system you describe may be more realistic or may be able to express more stuff, but it probably ends up convoluted and with a lot of special cases. To refer to your example again, as soon as you introduce might into the equation for the greatsword, then your greatsword has a lof of downsides:

You have to give up your second hand, your attack speed and you even need two attributes to use it correctly. Balancing dictates that this weapon should somehow offer more in exchange, which makes it then strictly better in some sense compared to other weapons. Because to use it is either a penalty to players not having enough attributes or an advantage to players having enough attributes (again, compared to other weapons), wherever you want to put the baseline of balance. Again, this actually decreases incentive to use this stuff in the first place as it  nudges you to the 'correct' attributes you should choose.

 

Again: It all boils down to the question whether you prefer to display a lot of people through attributes or if you prefer to have intuitive, balanced rules.

I prefer the later, simple and intuitive approach. The example with the monk just highlighted that, even if other attributes give you bonuses as well, if you aggregate enough derived stats the decision becomes a no brainer.

 

 

 

 

P.S.

About D&D, Monks and 'intuitive strike' - my experience says that 'intuitive strike' monks are to weak. Yeah, you could take it and count your WIS as a primary attribute - high will save (but high level monks are anyway having mind-affecting spells immunity), AC and AB boost, what else?

Now compare it with DEX\'weapon finesse' variant - same AC, same AB, mind-affecting spells immunity, much better reflex save, tumble, hide, move silently and finally - high DEX opens a way to things like epic dodge (ignore all damage from first attack each round), expose weakness (DOT and debuff on enemy), self concealment (up to 50% chance to miss for _each_ opponent attack). Much better yeah?

Personally I think 'intuitive strike' is for druids to help his AB a bit. Clerics do already have things like divine favor\might\aid\and so on. You can create a WIS only monk with this feat but I see no point doing so.

 

Your argument is solely based on epic levels, which are not what most people play. Immunity towards mind-affecting spells, as well as the other epic talents are available at lvl 20+ only, whereas most people prefer to play DnD between the sweet spot of lvl 5-15.

I can make a similar claim that up to lvl 20, given evasion and in particular improved evasion, the reflex save is not every important to a monk so that a higher will save will prove better. Furthermore, given the high saves of a monk, I think saves are not the important thing here.

Making a WIS monk ensures that your monk kills wizards before epic levels, which is IMO the point of the class. And in this context, a high DC for stunning fist is far more important.

About the skills, that all depends on how you play the monk. There are also a lot of interesting and effective wisdom based skills available, for example healing.

Don't get me wrong, you are right about the epic levels, but its hardly fair to assume that everybody only plays with the ultimate goal to be in epic levels.

Edited by Doppelschwert
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Back to accuracy.
Well, I believe the problem is with the term itself. It's used a bit wrong in PoE.
What 'accuracy' basically is?
It's an ability to deal a precise strike. Yeah if you have enough MIG to handle your weapon and enough PER to see the target then it's possibly completely covered by your DEX.
But the problem is - accuracy itself is not enough to hit the real target, a monster or a knight with sword and board that does not want you to hit him!
He will try to dodge your hit, to block it with the sword or shield, and finally - you have to pierce its armor (deflection) to hit...
So you could be the most accurate man in the universe, but if you are unable to overcome his blocking\dodging ability or if your rapier is unable to pierce his plate - you will do no hit. On the other hand, you could be a half-giant with very limited DEX but with a lot of MIG and big and ugly 6-feet-long club and just smash this blocking-master with his weapon, armor and shield over the ground. You don't need too many DEX or PER to hit the human-size target in melee range.
So the accuracy itself does not reflect the fact you should not only do a precise strike to hit, you also have to overcome the target defense to make your attack hit the target!
This way the accuracy and DEX is just a part of some more complex ability to deal a damage with a weapon.
Let's name it AF (attack factor). Now let's see what else could affect it.
Strength (MIG) - you can hit so hard that any block with weapon or shield will be unable to stop your weapon from penetrating the armor, especially if it's some heavy weapon like great axe or sword or even heavy hammer. There is still a chance to dodge the hit, but unlikely a knight with the shield and full plate will be able to do so.
Perception (PER) - you direct your arrows into some vulnerable zones of the armor.
Dexterity (DEX) - you attack very fast constantly changing the direction of the hits so your opponent just fails his blocking attempts.
So finally we come back to the idea to use different attributes to calculate your ability to hit the things. You could do it with MIG and heavy 2handed weapons, you could do it with DEX and light weapons that allow you to attack fast, you can do it with PER and ranged weapons.

Very low DEX could introduce some attack penalty for every weapon, but you really shouldn't have it very high to be able to hit the man-size target in melee range.

 

 

Your argument is solely based on epic levels, which are not what most people play. Immunity towards mind-affecting spells, as well as the other epic talents are available at lvl 20+ only, whereas most people prefer to play DnD between the sweet spot of lvl 5-15.

I can make a similar claim that up to lvl 20, given evasion and in particular improved evasion, the reflex save is not every important to a monk so that a higher will save will prove better. Furthermore, given the high saves of a monk, I think saves are not the important thing here.

Making a WIS monk ensures that your monk kills wizards before epic levels, which is IMO the point of the class. And in this context, a high DC for stunning fist is far more important.

About the skills, that all depends on how you play the monk. There are also a lot of interesting and effective wisdom based skills available, for example healing.

Don't get me wrong, you are right about the epic levels, but its hardly fair to assume that everybody only plays with the ultimate goal to be in epic levels.

Monk as a wizard-slayer only\mostly? It's highly debatable I would say, but let's not start this here. :)

Well, possibly mid\low level WIS monk will not be so bad as 20+. But anyway, haven't seen any pure WIS monk myself. By the way, healing is a cross-class skill for monks, so you will not be any effective with this anyway. Actually there are only 2 WIS based monk skills (3.5 ed. at least): Spot and Listen. And 4 DEX based: Tumble, Parry, Move Silently, Hide.

Edited by konst3d
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2Lephys

I'm mostly agreed with everything you have said about accuracy, dexterity, might and perception. The only thing that confuses me a bit is that how complicated thing become. You have a heavy crossbow let's say. It is heavy enough to have some MIG requirements, so you should calc an accuracy penalty (or even a bonus - not sure) based on the difference with your actual MIG. Now at the battlefield you have to calc how far your target is and calculate your accuracy penalty\bonus coming from PER. And also you have to combine these all with your base DEX-provided accuracy.

... But... those all have to be calculated anyway. Almost any ranged weapon system, for example, in any game, has a distance factor. Look at Fallout, even with its age. Then, you already have modifications from weapons, skills, feats, buffs, etc. So those are already in place. It would just be a matter of different, individual ones that happen to be derived from what's coded as a stat-checking factor for that weapon (like MIG for weapon heaviness, or PER for distance accuracy dropoff, etc.)

 

You make it sound as though what I'm suggesting takes a simple system and makes it complex. But, it's pretty much just working with what's already there. Besides... YOU don't have to do any of this, in a cRPG, because the game does it for you.

 

Also, there's in an "either adequate or less than" form. For one thing, the stats already provide global bonuses. So, for your Might to give you +15% damage, AND give you +something damage for a particular weapon, would be redundant at the least. Secondly, if it simply provides a detriment if it's low (a la MIG), or a bonus if it's high, then what you end up with is a more convoluted "this stat directly affects your accuracy, also, on a scale, just like the base accuracy stat (DEX)."

 

 

You were suggesting that different attributes factor into the same derived stat. Your example consisted of Dexterity and Might factoring into Accuracy. In this situation, you usually become indifferent to which attribute to increase in order to increase accuracy. This becomes clear in systems like Arcanum where the derived stats grow in a linear rate with the attributes, but even in your example where we have a product ( modification(might)*accuracy(dex) ) you can skip one of the attributes (although the incentive to just go for one attribute is smaller in your example).

Ehh... sort of. But, it's not the same thing. Your accuracy is only SOMETIMES affected by your Might. Your might doesn't actually just sit around in a formula determining your Accuracy, if you want to get technical (and I do, because it's a functional difference). It actually just gets checked if it needs to, to determine a modifier which is then applied to your final accuracy. No different from a debuff. Your Accuracy isn't "DEX * Debuff." It's just Dex, right now. A debuff is a specific, isolated, temporary thing. "Hey, that Accuracy total you got from that formula to determine that character's passive Accuracy value? Reduce it by 10 now, for like 15 seconds."

 

So, yeah, that's a different thing. I agree that it's best not to have two stats factor into one passive value. However, what I'm describing is having factors on the battlefield that call for a check to another stat to determine a modifier. OR, in the case of Perception in my example, It doesn't actually affect Accuracy, but instead, adjusts the already-present range modifier on Accuracy. As I said, If you have 1 DEX and 20 PER, your Accuracy's still crap. It's just the same level of crap (without dropping off) for a much better range.

 

That, to me, is an interesting dynamic. You can make an archer who can make LONGER shots with any given weapon, without making flat-out more-accurate shots than another archer. That one is, in fact, remarkably similar to the current "Might affects damage bonus, Intellect affects AoE size" setup, for, say, a Wizard with a bunch of AoE spells.

 

Sure, your AoE size affects how many targets you can potentially hit, and, thus, how much damage you can deal (X damage times Y opponents = total damage), but it doesn't determine the damage value for the spell you cast. Thus, you can make a high MIG high INT Wizard (at the cost of other stats, obviously) who does the most damage to the highest potential number of targets, OR just a high MIG Wizard who does the most damage but to not as many targets, OR just a high INT Wizard who hits more stuff more often, but does less base damage. Allows for several significant variants of Wizards, all with the same two stats.

 

Don't get me wrong, you can have such a system and it works, but this is a matter of preference. The system you describe may be more realistic or may be able to express more stuff, but it probably ends up convoluted and with a lot of special cases. To refer to your example again, as soon as you introduce might into the equation for the greatsword, then your greatsword has a lof of downsides:

You have to give up your second hand, your attack speed and you even need two attributes to use it correctly. Balancing dictates that this weapon should somehow offer more in exchange, which makes it then strictly better in some sense compared to other weapons. Because to use it is either a penalty to players not having enough attributes or an advantage to players having enough attributes (again, compared to other weapons), wherever you want to put the baseline of balance. Again, this actually decreases incentive to use this stuff in the first place as it nudges you to the 'correct' attributes you should choose.

That's true, and maybe (depending on other things) that's not the best way to handle a specific weapon type. However, I don't think it says anything inherently bad about the utilization of a secondary effect for a given stat (Might, in this example).

Edited by Lephys

Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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acrobatic - pre-requirement high dexterity and athletics. offers some dialogue options, provides a small bonus to deflection and reflexes while wearing light armour, and has several points on the game maps where you are capable of traversing otherwise intraversible terrain. (click on a vine laden wall with this trait, you can climb on it. find a rope between two buildings, allows you to get to another balcony, etc. Potentially gives you alternative routes into buildings)

Remember: Argue the point, not the person. Remain polite and constructive. Friendly forums have friendly debate. There's no shame in being wrong. If you don't have something to add, don't post for the sake of it. And don't be afraid to post thoughts you are uncertain about, that's what discussion is for.
---
Pet threads, everyone has them. I love imagining Gods, Monsters, Factions and Weapons.

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One of the first things I was compelled to do upon reading class descriptions is make a dual wielding rods/scepters/wands wizard for the natural AOE damage when using implements (rods/wands/scepters).

 

The other things was to see how good exploiting INT was for non caster classes to increase AOE damage with guns/bows or two handed weapons.

 

Are there throwing weapons?  I hope there is a talent to allow rangers and rogues to use some abilities with implements.

 

Also a plate wearing grimoire smacking wizard sounds too awesome.

 

But I am already letting my inner altoholic get the better of me!

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  • 2 weeks later...

How The Mighty Have Fallen - Critical strikes against targets now have a chance to knock them down, the chance being determined by the enemies might x2. Must have 15 Perception to purchase this trait.

 

Jugernaught - Reduces the heavy armor penalty by 1% per point in endurance and resolve.

 

Deadeye - Gives the user a 25% chance to reduce interrupts with equipped with a bow, crossbow, or throwing implement.

 

Phalanx - Gives a defensive bonuses for having a shield equipped, a spear equipped, or when standing next to an ally. This bonus is further increased if your ally also shares this secret knowledge.

 

Momentum - Increases your run speed as you run further. 

 

Pursuit of Justice - Increases run speed significantly when an enemies back is turned to you.

 

The Flow of Battle - Increases attack speed as you land hits, significantly for crits, and incredibly for killing blows, for a short duration.

 

Last Stand - damage increases as you fall near death.

 

Underdog - Increases your endurance and might by 1 for every level an enemy you are fighting is above you, up to a maximum of 2 each.

 

Unstoppable - Critical damage is now applied over five seconds instead of immediately. If this damage would have killed you, you shrug it off. (Barbarian Only, 10+ Resolve)

 

Never Show Your Back - Through the experience of many fights, the fighter has learned when to slip in the deadliest of blows to fleeing enemies - Fighters now have +20% chance to critically strike on disengagement strikes, and 25% increased damage.

 

Lead Through Example - Fighters, Paladins, Barbarians, upon landing a critical blow, increase their allies likelihood of landing a critical blow on their next attack by 10%.

 

Eye for An Eye - Fighters, Barbarians, Paladins, return a free attack upon being critically struck (Resolve 12+)

 

Eager to Fight - Recovers from disables, knockdowns, and controls much quicker (Resolve 14+)

 

Attack of Opportunity - Upon dodging or deflecting, slip in a free glancing blow (Dexterity 11+)

 

Improved Attack of Opportunity - Upon dodging or deflecting, slip in a free blow that cannot crit. (Dexterity 13+)

 

Masters Attack of Opportunity - Upon dodging or deflecting, slip in a free critical blow (Dexterity 15+)

 

Fighter's Cunning - Experience shows you where to strike. Do an extra .5 flat damage on any attack up to a maximum of 9 (based off intellect x1/2, Fighter, Barbarian, Rogue, Paladin only).

 

Gang Up - A free attack on any enemy that has been knocked down within current melee range. 

 

Blade Turning - Increases deflection chance by 10% when not equipped with a shield.

 

Improved Blade Turning - Slip in a free glancing blow upon turning an attack

 

Masters Blade Turning - Slip in a free blow upon turning an attack, with an improved chance to critically hit by 10%. (Dexterity 15)

 

Weighted Blows - Increases damage with melee weapons and melee attacks by .5 per point of endurance.

 

Rangers Resolve - No rest penalty for switching to melee weapons (Ranger, Resolve 11+)

 

Rangers Steel Resolve - A rangers first melee strike will always be a critical strike (Ranger, Resolve 13+, Must have Rangers Resolve).

 

Quick-Draw - After applying a critical strike with melee weapons, the next ranged attack that is not a glancing blow will be a critical strike on the same target with enhanced damage.

 

Hot-Swap - No rest penalty for switching to ranged weapons. 

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The Path of Blood - Upon landing a killing blow, the barbarian enters wild sprint at no cost. (Resolve 15+)

 

Blood Pack - When attacking the same target as it's pet, the Ranger receives a 5% accuracy bonus and a 5% bonus to melee damage.

 

Separate the Weak - When attacking isolated targets (targets within XYZ distance of an ally), a rangers or his pets attacks slow the movement speed of the enemy by 20%.

Edited by Pray
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I'm gonna play the game and then see what I'd like to be able to have, and add it as a suggestion.

I agree with this attitude, but the super nerd in me enjoys making this stuff up.

 

So here's another:

 

Ranger's Patience - If the Ranger hasn't taken damage or received negative effects, or moved within the last 10 seconds, he receives a 50% chance to crit when flanking. (15+ Perception)

Edited by Pray
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