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Bow: I did this in my first game and found that the AP cost + the lack of damage from low Dex and low skill investment makes it not worthwhile. Unless you're, say, giving your fighter dex & bow skills, in which case, you're gimping the entire character. Which is fine if you want to do that, but then of course things will become harder.

 

Sneak at 4AP is advantageous for a marksman for instance, because even with quickdraw a bow attack is 5AP. As for melee, the point is (1) restealthing at end of turn can make your guy invisible for the entire turn; (2) potentially meaning you don't need to waste AP repositioning for a backstab. 

 

Higher sneak levels narrows enemies' cone of vision and their awareness levels, which can be crucial for a successful sneak. Even for ranged characters, you're not always so far away from everybody that you can do it with impunity at level 0 and still be close enough for good THC.

 

Edit: I don't know if they fixed this, but I think Guerilla & Backstab is also meant to stack. So, restealth and backstab = quadriple damage, and maybe it stacks with Bully, even? Time to find out.

Yeah, I don't plan on raising Madora's dex, but she does still carry a low level bow with maybe 6 or 7 dex requirement - which even then is only achieved through gear and no actual investment. Damage and accuracy is terrible compared to the thief's bow, but having it be a fire bow is handy if only to ignite explosions.

 

I'm still dubious of the value of restealthing, since with all that considered, the only real possible advantage is being hidden during enemy movement (which with all the AoE ground effects going on will be far from guaranteed). And yes, I assume Guerilla and Backstab are meant to stack, but even then it's not worthwhile. A 6ap (4ap to restealth, 2ap to perform the actual attack) investment for a 4x damage attack is literally the same damage as just backstabbing twice for 2ap each time.

 

P.S. My bow attacks cost 4ap. Are higher level weapons more ap to use?

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Bow: I did this in my first game and found that the AP cost + the lack of damage from low Dex and low skill investment makes it not worthwhile. Unless you're, say, giving your fighter dex & bow skills, in which case, you're gimping the entire character. Which is fine if you want to do that, but then of course things will become harder.

 

Sneak at 4AP is advantageous for a marksman for instance, because even with quickdraw a bow attack is 5AP. As for melee, the point is (1) restealthing at end of turn can make your guy invisible for the entire turn; (2) potentially meaning you don't need to waste AP repositioning for a backstab. 

 

Higher sneak levels narrows enemies' cone of vision and their awareness levels, which can be crucial for a successful sneak. Even for ranged characters, you're not always so far away from everybody that you can do it with impunity at level 0 and still be close enough for good THC.

 

Edit: I don't know if they fixed this, but I think Guerilla & Backstab is also meant to stack. So, restealth and backstab = quadriple damage, and maybe it stacks with Bully, even? Time to find out.

Yeah, I don't plan on raising Madora's dex, but she does still carry a low level bow with maybe 6 or 7 dex requirement - which even then is only achieved through gear and no actual investment. Damage and accuracy is terrible compared to the thief's bow, but having it be a fire bow is handy if only to ignite explosions.

 

I'm still dubious of the value of restealthing, since with all that considered, the only real possible advantage is being hidden during enemy movement (which with all the AoE ground effects going on will be far from guaranteed). And yes, I assume Guerilla and Backstab are meant to stack, but even then it's not worthwhile. A 6ap (4ap to restealth, 2ap to perform the actual attack) investment for a 4x damage attack is literally the same damage as just backstabbing twice for 2ap each time.

 

P.S. My bow attacks cost 4ap. Are higher level weapons more ap to use?

 

 

Being hidden during enemy movement is crucial for survival in late game, when more squishy characters (i.e. not fighters) can be ripped apart in two or three attacks. 5 Stealth Skill = 1AP to stealth. 3AP per stealth attack at 4x damage, as opposed to 2AP normal attack at 1x damage. (In both cases you attack twice with daggers, so that doesn't matter.) Sorry, but it's very clearly a ticket to damage heaven. At least, it is a viable build, though if you are struggling already at Normal then perhaps it wouldn't be optimal. Elemental magic is fun too and much easier to get mileage out of.

 

Bows are 4AP, crossbows are 6 I think? 

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Haven't used a crossbow, no idea. Finding in the early game bows drop at about a 10:1 ratio to crossbows, and they both use DEX as a prerequisite, so it appears for now that crossbows are an expensive novelty at best. It's kind of ridiculous really that all one-handed melee weapons are one skill, all two-handed weapons are one skill, but bows and crossbows are separate skills. At least change the primary stat on crossbows so it'd be a viable secondary weapon for pure fighter classes (bonus for realism too).

 

But yeah, I wasn't aware the cost of restealthing was down to 1ap at higher levels (though I would have imagined it'd have to do with high scoundrel skill and not high sneaking skill?). At that point, yes, it's worth it for damage. That said though, the comparison is 4x damage from stealth vs 2x damage from regular backstab from positioning, surely. So even then it's still 3ap for 4x damage vs 2ap for 2x damage, objectively better certainly, but not quite so good as you put it.

 

 

EDIT: Oh, I'm probably confusing regular restealth with the special ability to do so. Not sure how much it's costing me at the moment since I rarely have the opportunity to use it, big fights being the line-of-sight messes that they are.

Edited by Humanoid

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There are good crossbows around but I agree they're not really worthwhile - the AP cost is a real killer. Crossbows needed to have some special property, like piercing enemies in a line, to make them interesting. 

 

Anyway, yeah, I've just played a couple hours with my stealth duo and it's not an easy build to play. My point was less that it is awesome than it is viable, and I'm glad there's several viable characters to play. Crafting also gets fun once you get used to recipes and ingredients, though it is overwhelming at first. 

 

Worst part of the game has to be the retarded imp.

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There are good crossbows around but I agree they're not really worthwhile - the AP cost is a real killer. Crossbows needed to have some special property, like piercing enemies in a line, to make them interesting. 

 

Anyway, yeah, I've just played a couple hours with my stealth duo and it's not an easy build to play. My point was less that it is awesome than it is viable, and I'm glad there's several viable characters to play. Crafting also gets fun once you get used to recipes and ingredients, though it is overwhelming at first. 

 

Worst part of the game has to be the retarded imp.

Crossbows should have high ROF/low AP cost/low skill threshold while bows should have the highest armor penetration/negation and crit damage modifier against non zomboid/skeletal enemies.

Edited by AGX-17
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It's okay if there's also a Very Easy difficulty.

Every game has that, it's called Cheat Engine. My favourite way of re-playing a game is with a pimped out cheat character, I wan't to see how much I can break the game.

Edited by trulez
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It's okay if there's also a Very Easy difficulty.

Every game has that, it's called Cheat Engine. My favourite way of re-playing a game is with a pimped out cheat character, I wan't to see how much I can break the game.

 

 

Really, you consider that a cheat option?

 

I just see Very Easy as a way for someone to be entertained in a particular game without too much challenge, I have only ever used Easy mode rarely but when fighting certain end bosses

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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My group is now level 5, and I'm trying to decide a direction to go with my wizardy-type character.  I started him as a Witch, but I was slow to grasp how the skillpoint level-up worked.  I initially thought there was a level threshold that was preventing me from adding a 2nd point to any of his skills.  By the time I figured out that it cost 2 skillpoints to increase a skill to level 2, I had already raised a lot of skills to level 1 (every spell school but Fire).  I now have 2 skillpoints "saved" and have to decide where to put them.  And this includes some consideration w/r/t whether I'm planning to keep Jahan around, long-term. 

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Yeah, that skill point thing is a bit confusing.

 

Easy isn't a cakewalk or anything in this game, enemies still use all their spells and abilities against you, you just don't go down quite as quickly and they go down faster to your attacks.

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Skill point spending scales up (1, 2, 3, 4, 5) which makes +1 to skill equipment particularly valuable. It also means that you won't be able to 'grandmaster' (5) more than two spell schools, usually. That's still more than enough - it's not like you need your mage to be able to cast every spell in the game. I'd say leave all spell schools at 1 and then level them up as you need depending on the spells you disocver and the spells you find you use often (tooltip for each spell will show when low skill level in that school is hamstringing your use). 

 

Pumping INT is important as it reduces spell cooldowns & increases their effectivity; get it to, say, 20 INT and you're casting most simple spells with no cooldown or only 1 turn.

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In me and my girlfriends co-op game I'm playing a rogue-like character, and from a pure single target damage perspective, that character is the top in most fights.

 

And that's without relying on stealth overly much.  The pure amount of attacks you get through pull their weight, and I find the rogue abilities to be very useful (invisibility, self-haste, stun, charm). All attacks are backstabs since targets really only turn around when you miss, and it's rare to miss on a backstab.

 

And due to the high amount of attacks, chances to trigger secondary effects on targets is pretty high.

 

Rogues excel at taking out high value targets like archers or spellcasters, but they're less effective at heavily armored targets. Maybe an archer character would be better for that purpose, but the rogue is more fun.

 

Sure, there are times when after delivering your initial flurry of attacks you feel a bit exposed and you can go down quickly. But that's part of the playstyle.

 

I do hate that dead characters get less xp though...

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"I'm playing a rogue-like character, and from a pure single target damage perspective, that character is the top in most fights."

 

Nah.

DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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 All attacks are backstabs since targets really only turn around when you miss, and it's rare to miss on a backstab.

 

Yeah, this is pretty damn useful. We're talking 8-10 backstabs in a single turn in terms of actual attacks. Just had a nice battle where my characdters just winked in and out of stealth charming, burning and backstabbing the enemy, who spent most of the battle wandering around in panic.

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"I'm playing a rogue-like character, and from a pure single target damage perspective, that character is the top in most fights."

 

Nah.

 

The whole quote was "In me and my girlfriends co-op game I'm playing a rogue-like character, and from a pure single target damage perspective, that character is the top in most fights."

 

So I'm assuming you are Spider's girlfriend, since you know who is the top damage dealer in all of his fights.  Congrats, I think Spider is a real catch.   :wub: 

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Spider, talk to us, we can help. Don't stay in an abusive relationship. Post your experiences.

 

Do it in WOT, though, or I'll have to ban you. It's just how it is.

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My group is now level 5, and I'm trying to decide a direction to go with my wizardy-type character.  I started him as a Witch, but I was slow to grasp how the skillpoint level-up worked.  I initially thought there was a level threshold that was preventing me from adding a 2nd point to any of his skills.  By the time I figured out that it cost 2 skillpoints to increase a skill to level 2, I had already raised a lot of skills to level 1 (every spell school but Fire).  I now have 2 skillpoints "saved" and have to decide where to put them.  And this includes some consideration w/r/t whether I'm planning to keep Jahan around, long-term.

At least at later levels (actually, pretty much your next level or the one after) you'll get two points per level, and later even more. So it would have eventually telegraphed how it works I guess. :p But it's no bad thing to raise all the skills to level 1 to unlock them, three spell slots each is generally enough to get the utility spells and other things you'd want to use often. I mean when you need to make some rain, it doesn't really matter if you do it on your mage with 1 point in Water Magic or the one maxed out on it.

 

For my notes as much as anything else, a reference as to what you get pointwise for each level.

 

 

EDIT: As for the rogue thing, I'm not so concerned about combat effectiveness because it is fun to use, and the balance at normal is loose enough as for that to not be an issue. But the actual thiefly parts of being a rogue aren't so hot and never feel satisfying (as in "awesome, I've just pulled off a very clever alternative solution"), but that's more a failure of gameworld design than of class design.

Edited by Humanoid

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Yeah, given the increasing marginal cost of investing in abilities, it seems that a 1-point investment in a school is a rather efficient way to use a scarce resource. 

 

I've noticed that you can "forget" spells from your slots-- is it possible to fill those spots with higher-minimum-character-level spells later on?  I get that the "do X damage" type effects would be less effective, but do things like high level summons also scale to ability-point investment?

 

Glass Cannon seems to be a slam-dunk for any non-tanky character, no?  Or would a party with 3 Glass Cannons, plus 1 warrior and a few summons be too squishy?   

Edited by Enoch
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Yes, you can, but higher level spells have scaling AP cost (e.g. it might cost 8ap at 1 point skill, but only 6ap at 3 points), so casting them with low skill may be problematic for combat skills if they end up costing more AP than you get per turn. Like how wielding weapons that are higher level than your melee characters costs them extra AP to swing, this is the counterbalance to novice fire mages or whatever casting high level fire spells.

 

And yes, apparently glass cannon is amazing for anyone, including tanky characters, because the AP gain means all the points you'd normally be putting into speed can go into constitution instead to offset the penalty, resulting in a net gain. That said, since I read that, I've made a point of it to not take the perk, I'd rather not break the difficulty curve too much. :p (Heard leech and maybe zombie are similarly gamebreaking)

Edited by Humanoid

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Lone Wolf and Glass Cannon are almost cheat abilities in how good they are. Basically like Gifted.

 

And yeah, higher level spells will tend to give AP penalties, e.g. trying to cast fireball with level 1 fire. But level 1 in an element for utility spells like teleport is great. Electrification or whatever its called, the close range stunning basic air spell, is excellent - keep raising the mage's INT and you can use it to stun enemies for 3AP all the way to the endgame.

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Teleport is pretty dang powerful for me.  So I get to move someone away from me, do a bunch of damage in the process, and drop him on another enemy, doing even more damage?  Thank you.

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