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Update #81: The Front Line: Fighters and Barbarians

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It's a nice overall look because the colors and highlights work well. But yes, some of the proportions are a bit off. Especially the eyes, which seem physiologically too small. Still, it's not something you're going to notice much on a tiny icon.

 

For me it's the extended twirl at the end of the lip that makes it quite not right. I've since gone into Photoshop and fixed it up and now it looks great and will be using this as the portrait.

 

Actually, a question to the dev's, can we change the portraits of the NPC's?

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It's a nice overall look because the colors and highlights work well. But yes, some of the proportions are a bit off. Especially the eyes, which seem physiologically too small.

I've seen real-life people with smaller eyes. Plus, they're in profile... maybe she has relatively wide, lazy-ish eyes? Who knows.

 

Obviously everyone's welcome to their opinion, but it seems a little odd to me that, instead of saying "I dunno... I don't really like the size of the eyes, etc.", multiple people are all jumping on it as if pointing out a crooked doorframe. "Yep, that's definitely, concretely, flawed. It should be perfect 90-degrees." When the human anatomy allows for quite a range of proportions.

 

I don't understand the extent of the issue being had with it, namely, the certainty of its straying from some very rigid set of blueprints. Personally, I just find it a little odd, and, for lack of a better word, "nitpicky," since it seems to be saying "a human female could not possibly look like that."

 

There's absolutely nothing wrong with critiquing art, as long as it is done constructively.

 

 

Absolutely.  But in this case I don't agree with the critique. There's nothing about the portrait that isn't possible in a real human.

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Frankly, the biggest concern I have about this game is the amount of micro-management required by a party of six characters + a couple summoned creatures. RTwP games and TB games are different beasts. Single-character and party based games are different beasts too. More often than not developers seem to forget the inherent differences between these kinds of of games, and this brings to crap such DA: O. I'm glad that Josh and Tim are trying to make something balanced here, something that can work in real time and with a I.E like party, which means having classes with different levels of required maintenace.   

 

Rather than making certain classes less interactive, I'd prefer that the companion AI is decent enough to be competent without a lot of 'interference'.  They won't operate at peak efficiency, but they should be good enough to play through on the easier settings.  That way someone with a more laid back playstyle can be happy, yet players like me who actually enjoy RTwP party based tactical combat can have fun with all of the members of our party, instead of just half of them. 

 

 

 

If you have to rely on companion A.I. in a game where you are supposed to be in charge of a whole party, there something wrong in its systems. PoE is not an MMO nor a single character RPG. The whole point of a party based game is the squad management. It doesn't matter how "fun" is to play a specific class (leaving alone the fact that a low-maintenance class could be as fun as any other class). What's matter is how "fun" is to control the entire squad, which is what you do all the time as a player - and relying on A.I. is the antithesis of fun, even if the A.I. in question is really good.

It's not by accident that in the old I.E. games the only classes that required real management were casters. Melee fighters didn't required management at all. PoE already enhanced the original formula. 

 

 

You have a very narrow definition of party management. Perhaps someone finds a great deal of satisfaction in picking talents, equipment, and tactics that allow the non-PC party members to succeed without immediate microcontrol. The effort and the planning that went into such an approach is not a less valid way to the game. 

 

Also, while you may consider such an approach "the anthesis of fun" you are just stating your own preference. Someone else's definition of fun might be vastly different than yours. 

 

 

The day that someone  provides me with a single-valid explanation on how something that doesn't imply a player interaction is fun in a videogame, I will broaden my "narrow definition of fun".  Until that day, I will linger with my actual conviction :D.  

 

 

PS: don't get me wrong. I have nothing against a robust preparation phase in RPGs. But when preparation is the only fun part of the game, something is definitely wrong... 

Edited by Baudolino05

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Little offtopic but do we know how big is pool of talents for each class and how many we will be able to select? Will we get talent each level or every second? I am little worried because we should be capped at level 12 and if we can choose talent only lets say every 3rd level we will not customise our characters through the game. Equipment will have then much greater importancy


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Frankly, the biggest concern I have about this game is the amount of micro-management required by a party of six characters + a couple summoned creatures. RTwP games and TB games are different beasts. Single-character and party based games are different beasts too. More often than not developers seem to forget the inherent differences between these kinds of of games, and this brings to crap such DA: O. I'm glad that Josh and Tim are trying to make something balanced here, something that can work in real time and with a I.E like party, which means having classes with different levels of required maintenace.   

 

Rather than making certain classes less interactive, I'd prefer that the companion AI is decent enough to be competent without a lot of 'interference'.  They won't operate at peak efficiency, but they should be good enough to play through on the easier settings.  That way someone with a more laid back playstyle can be happy, yet players like me who actually enjoy RTwP party based tactical combat can have fun with all of the members of our party, instead of just half of them. 

 

 

 

If you have to rely on companion A.I. in a game where you are supposed to be in charge of a whole party, there something wrong in its systems. PoE is not an MMO nor a single character RPG. The whole point of a party based game is the squad management. It doesn't matter how "fun" is to play a specific class (leaving alone the fact that a low-maintenance class could be as fun as any other class). What's matter is how "fun" is to control the entire squad, which is what you do all the time as a player - and relying on A.I. is the antithesis of fun, even if the A.I. in question is really good.

It's not by accident that in the old I.E. games the only classes that required real management were casters. Melee fighters didn't required management at all. PoE already enhanced the original formula. 

 

 

You have a very narrow definition of party management. Perhaps someone finds a great deal of satisfaction in picking talents, equipment, and tactics that allow the non-PC party members to succeed without immediate microcontrol. The effort and the planning that went into such an approach is not a less valid way to the game. 

 

Also, while you may consider such an approach "the anthesis of fun" you are just stating your own preference. Someone else's definition of fun might be vastly different than yours. 

 

 

The day that someone  provides me with a single-valid explanation on how something that doesn't imply a player interaction is fun in a videogame, I will broaden my "narrow definition of fun".  Until that day, I will linger with my actual conviction :D.  

 

 

PS: don't get me wrong. I have nothing against a robust preparation phase in RPGs. But when preparation is the only fun part of the game, something is definitely wrong... 

 

 

For some there is fun to have in management, because it creates excitement to see if you did right choices beforehand. This is why such games as fantasy football and football manager games exist. Although I don't personally find them that exciting but I know lot of people that find them exciting. I think it similar to excitement that one feels when they play slot machines, where only interactions with game are putting money in and pressing start and hoping that you get money out. 

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Frankly, the biggest concern I have about this game is the amount of micro-management required by a party of six characters + a couple summoned creatures. RTwP games and TB games are different beasts. Single-character and party based games are different beasts too. More often than not developers seem to forget the inherent differences between these kinds of of games, and this brings to crap such DA: O. I'm glad that Josh and Tim are trying to make something balanced here, something that can work in real time and with a I.E like party, which means having classes with different levels of required maintenace.   

 

Rather than making certain classes less interactive, I'd prefer that the companion AI is decent enough to be competent without a lot of 'interference'.  They won't operate at peak efficiency, but they should be good enough to play through on the easier settings.  That way someone with a more laid back playstyle can be happy, yet players like me who actually enjoy RTwP party based tactical combat can have fun with all of the members of our party, instead of just half of them. 

 

 

 

If you have to rely on companion A.I. in a game where you are supposed to be in charge of a whole party, there something wrong in its systems. PoE is not an MMO nor a single character RPG. The whole point of a party based game is the squad management. It doesn't matter how "fun" is to play a specific class (leaving alone the fact that a low-maintenance class could be as fun as any other class). What's matter is how "fun" is to control the entire squad, which is what you do all the time as a player - and relying on A.I. is the antithesis of fun, even if the A.I. in question is really good.

It's not by accident that in the old I.E. games the only classes that required real management were casters. Melee fighters didn't required management at all. PoE already enhanced the original formula. 

 

 

You have a very narrow definition of party management. Perhaps someone finds a great deal of satisfaction in picking talents, equipment, and tactics that allow the non-PC party members to succeed without immediate microcontrol. The effort and the planning that went into such an approach is not a less valid way to the game. 

 

Also, while you may consider such an approach "the anthesis of fun" you are just stating your own preference. Someone else's definition of fun might be vastly different than yours. 

 

 

The day that someone  provides me with a single-valid explanation on how something that doesn't imply a player interaction is fun in a videogame, I will broaden my "narrow definition of fun".  Until that day, I will linger with my actual conviction :D.  

 

 

PS: don't get me wrong. I have nothing against a robust preparation phase in RPGs. But when preparation is the only fun part of the game, something is definitely wrong... 

 

 

For some there is fun to have in management, because it creates excitement to see if you did right choices beforehand. This is why such games as fantasy football and football manager games exist. Although I don't personally find them that exciting but I know lot of people that find them exciting. I think it similar to excitement that one feels when they play slot machines, where only interactions with game are putting money in and pressing start and hoping that you get money out. 

 

 

Well, even if I can see why some people enjoy this kind of games, we are talking about an I.E-like game here. And if there is one thing that I.E. games did well, this was allowing players to control a party of six characters without pausing every 2 seconds or relying on companion A.I. The balance between high and low maintenance classes had a big part in this achievement. 

Edited by Baudolino05

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One Stands Alone - When barbarians are Engaged by two or more enemies, they gains a bonus to melee damage. They cannot be Flanked unless they are Engaged by more than three enemies.

 

This one seems a little non-intuitive to me; if you're having to defend against more than one attacker is seems like your likelihood of inflicting damage would actually drop unless the two opponents are getting in each other's way. I guess it must be a soul power...


"It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats."

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It looks at least remotely similar to me. Eder's obviously rougher, but the general approach to the human looks decently similar. *shrug*

The art style falls within "BG1/IWD1 hybrid look with 'natural' color palette, mix of fine and loose brush strokes and shoulders up proportions" category, but other than that I really don't see any similarlities between Kaz' work on Eder and this potrait. The linework, brushwork and texturing is just completely different (in my opinion).

 

There's some similarities to how Polina does darker pencil style shadings to resemble shadowing, but her outlines of the character are very soft, whereas Polina's are very sharp. Kaz's outline of characters are very "ethereal" or ghostlike as there's no one clear outline, there's like a few overlapping ones.

Edited by Sensuki

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One Stands Alone - When barbarians are Engaged by two or more enemies, they gains a bonus to melee damage. They cannot be Flanked unless they are Engaged by more than three enemies.

 

This one seems a little non-intuitive to me; if you're having to defend against more than one attacker is seems like your likelihood of inflicting damage would actually drop unless the two opponents are getting in each other's way. I guess it must be a soul power...

 

 

I guess you could see it by viewing barbarians as fighters who are more used to fighting alone in large chaotic melees, they are known for being independent. Whereas a traditonally trained fighter probably has more of a military approach where you move and fight as a unit, supporting the man next to you.

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One Stands Alone - When barbarians are Engaged by two or more enemies, they gains a bonus to melee damage. They cannot be Flanked unless they are Engaged by more than three enemies.

 

This one seems a little non-intuitive to me; if you're having to defend against more than one attacker is seems like your likelihood of inflicting damage would actually drop unless the two opponents are getting in each other's way. I guess it must be a soul power...

 

 

multiple enemies are more dangerous than one, so your relexes become more sharp => u deal more damage.

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One Stands Alone - When barbarians are Engaged by two or more enemies, they gains a bonus to melee damage. They cannot be Flanked unless they are Engaged by more than three enemies.

 

This one seems a little non-intuitive to me; if you're having to defend against more than one attacker is seems like your likelihood of inflicting damage would actually drop unless the two opponents are getting in each other's way. I guess it must be a soul power...

 

Its called being psycho, having killer instinct. Barbarians are those soldiers in war who get a massive excitement and adrenaline rush when faced with overwhelming adversary. When other soldiers are cowering with fear their vision jumps to 20/20 looking to inflict death.

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Thanks for the update once again. Nearly all of the classes sound interesting, including the fighter and the barbarian. In my opinion the portrait looks superb. F yeah.

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"Maybe your grandiose vocabulary is a pathetic compensation for an insufficiency in the nether regions of your anatomy."

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Is the flanked status actually commutative? Does it make a difference if you are flanked by 2 opponents or by 4? If so, I'd imagine Barbarians could be far better tanks than fighters when they're facing hordes of trash mobs. 

 

Brute Force abitlity sounds cool, it's often too easy in rpgs to make a uniform good tank by just piling up one defense like deflection. Barbarians would just represent a different fighting style to counter this.

 

One Stands alone: I find that hard to bite too, but from a gamist point of view it's perhaps fun. 

 

Carnage: the attack on multiple enemies thing is good and all, still, I think it would be better to have the option to turn it off, in order to get other bonuses, or to use other abilities. The way I see it, barbarians are already distinct enough from the fighter class, even without carnage.

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The art style falls within "BG1/IWD1 hybrid look with 'natural' color palette, mix of fine and loose brush strokes and shoulders up proportions" category, but other than that I really don't see any similarlities between Kaz' work on Eder and this potrait. The linework, brushwork and texturing is just completely different (in my opinion).

No argument there. I guess I just meant... well, imagine if the same person did something in charcoal, then did something else in fingerpaint. Obviously technical aspects are going to look different. But it could still even be the same artist with the same "style."

 

That's all I meant. It remound me of the Eder portrait, is all.


Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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One Stands Alone - When barbarians are Engaged by two or more enemies, they gains a bonus to melee damage. They cannot be Flanked unless they are Engaged by more than three enemies.

 

This one seems a little non-intuitive to me; if you're having to defend against more than one attacker is seems like your likelihood of inflicting damage would actually drop unless the two opponents are getting in each other's way. I guess it must be a soul power...

 

Its called being psycho, having killer instinct. Barbarians are those soldiers in war who get a massive excitement and adrenaline rush when faced with overwhelming adversary. When other soldiers are cowering with fear their vision jumps to 20/20 looking to inflict death.

 

"You must only let the red rage take hold of you in the thick of battle."

"I know, dad, I KNOW!! I've heard it all a thousand times!! RRAARRGGHH!!!"

 

*ahem*

Eric the Viking Flashback


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Now that we have all the class updates, it'd be very nice to hear about the current state of the Skills system. :) I can't imagine that would pose any spoiler issues.

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"It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats."

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Now that we have all the class updates, it'd be very nice to hear about the current state of the Skills system. :) I can't imagine that would pose any spoiler issues.

Seconded. I'd also love to hear about some talents, just to get an idea of how much character differentiation they afford.

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"You must only let the red rage take hold of you in the thick of battle."

 

"I know, dad, I KNOW!! I've heard it all a thousand times!! RRAARRGGHH!!!"

 

 

Tim Robbins, Cleese, Rooney ... I think I would like to see this. Have not, before. 

Edited by ManifestedISO

All Stop. On Screen.

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"You must only let the red rage take hold of you in the thick of battle."

 

"I know, dad, I KNOW!! I've heard it all a thousand times!! RRAARRGGHH!!!"

 

 

Tim Robbins, Cleese, Rooney ... I think I would like to see this. Have not, before. 

 

It's a classic


_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

*Casts Nature's Terror* :aiee: , *Casts Firebug* :fdevil: , *Casts Rot-Skulls* :skull: , *Casts Garden of Life* :luck: *Spirit-shifts to cat form* :cat:

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How are fighters supposed to survive health wise without a improved stamina to health ratio?

I know they can regen a lot of stamina during a fight and have better physical defenses but that isn't going to help them in the long run while barbarians have double health and monks have the whole wound system.

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Personally, I would love to learn more on enemy A.I. in Pillars of Eternity.

 

The original IE games were notoriously lacking in that department, sporting a fairly dumb A.I. that—for example—would just stand there idly if your character went invisible, and/or would never use up any consumable item in their possession (e.g. potions, wands, scrolls, etc.). Enemy casters would systematically rely on the same spells in the same order with no apparent strategy in every encounter.

 

I hope PoE's A.I. will be more varied, cunning, and challenging—especially considering all the fire power available to PCs with these awesome class designs :)

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I asked some questions about Talents and Enemy AI (among other things) in an interview I sent off a week or so ago. ETA was "a couple of weeks", so I might get it back next week.

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How are fighters supposed to survive health wise without a improved stamina to health ratio?

I know they can regen a lot of stamina during a fight and have better physical defenses but that isn't going to help them in the long run while barbarians have double health and monks have the whole wound system.

Well, it might help them in the long run. We don't know just how significant those defense bonuses actually are. The language in this update is vague. All we know is that they have the highest deflection scores of any class, they have a passive armor bonus ability, and inflicting critical damage on them will be 20% harder to do. This probably means they'll be taking less damage in melee than everyone else.

 

 

And in those times when all of the above fails them, there's This:

•Unbroken (Active) - This ability can only be activated when the fighter is at 0 Stamina. When used, the fighter will stand back up with 50% of her Stamina.

^ this looks like the proverbial reset button. I like "second chance" stuff like this. Prevents the degenerate save scummer in me from reloading the game :) Edited by Stun
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These fighter abilities seem rather lackluster, most of them being easily grouped to "abilities regarding hitting more/harder" or "abilities regarding longevity/taking more damage"; the only interesting one for me was Crippling Guard that at least had a crowd control function. Why are there not any knockback abilities? No way of pinning the enemy down or swapping positions with them? These are also possible 'tanking' abilities and just as disciplinary... To me it would be more interesting if fighters have the option to choose a few of these just as the monks do. Maybe the problem lies in me seeing only a few of the abilities while there are many more interesting unlisted abilities, with the ones being shown just being there to show the focus of the class.

 

This aside, I ****ing love the portrait.

Edited by Waswat
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