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Is this racist?


BruceVC

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http://www.women24.com/News/EWN-cartoon-deemed-racist-ANC-says-it-is-an-insult-to-voters-20140530

 

So some of you guys think that at times I over-analyse issues of social justice and sometimes highlight problems where problems don't exist. I understand that even if I don't agree all the time. I have explained that due to the history of the country I live in and my personal experiences I do take issues of social justice seriously

 

 

Anyway I want to share with you and get your opinions on some of the issues around social justice that we deal with in South Africa on a weekly basis. Yesterday a prominent media outlet posted a cartoon basically suggesting that the ANC, our current ruling political party, are clowns. You can see the cartoon in the link I posted and you can read about the incident

 

You don't need to know the exact history of the politicians in the cartoon but needless to say they haven't done very good jobs in there portfolios. There has been a huge outcry from people and mostly black South Africans suggesting that the cartoon is profoundly racist and wanting the cartoonist to be fired.

 

The media outlet has apologized for any hurt caused and the whole incident has been referred to a Media Ombudsman for review and possible further action.

 

So what do you guys think, is the is type of cartoon acceptable?

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"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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The ministers as clowns-bit is certainly acceptable. The crux is the voters in the bottom right corner. Not only are they being called "poephols" ("a-s-s-h-o-l-e-s" in Afrikaans). They are clearly black, and then with that clown face paint - they come across as black-face cartoons, which don't go down well at all, given those kinds of cartoons place in history). All in all, I think the cartoonist took it too far, and it certainly borders on racism, However, a sincere apology should be enough. A crowd with torches and pitchforks calling for the sacking of the editor and the cartoonist is just over the top, methinks.

Edited by IndiraLightfoot

*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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If you ask me, almost everything is acceptable.

 

People everywhere need to grow a thicker skin and stop acting like the entire world revolves around their oh-so-precious feelings.

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If you ask me, almost everything is acceptable.

 

People everywhere need to grow a thicker skin and stop acting like the entire world revolves around their oh-so-precious feelings.

Ideally, I agree with you. But there are a few symbols that are simple too charged to just do a laissez faire on it all. :)

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*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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The ministers as clowns-bit is certainly acceptable. The crux is the voters in the bottom right corner. Not only are they being called "poephols" ("a-s-s-h-o-l-e-s" in Afrikaans). They are clearly black, and then with that clown face paint - they come across as black-face cartoons, which don't go down well at all, given those kinds of cartoons place in history). All in all, I think the cartoonist took it too far, and it certainly borders on racism, However, a sincere apology should be enough. A crowd with torches and pitchforks calling for the sacking of the editor and the cartoonist is just over the top, methinks.

 

You make some reasonable points and yes the issue is more about how the voters are portrayed. People don't like being called ignorant for voting for the ANC and the cartoon shows them in a demeaning light. But good perspective :)

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Okay, let me play devil's advocate here. I will admit that I may not see all the nuances in this cartoon, so perhaps for someone with a more South African perspective there is more offensive stuff in this cartoon then I can see. But would you say this cartoon is worse than say, the Danish cartoon that caused a lot of outrage among muslims? The one that very few people in the west thought needed an apology, and that was defended on the grounds that even if we didn't agree with the message itself, most of us felt that the cartoon maker was free to publish in the name of free speech?

 

I don't see the clowns cartoon to be any more or less offensive. Stereotypes and exaggerations are exactly what these kinds of cartoons thrive on. If a cartoonist wants to draw a Turk they give him a fez and a mustache, if they want to draw a Dutch girl she's going to wear wooden shoes, a silly hat and possibly smoke a joint. And you can certainly imagine that these kinds of stereotypical images will cause offense to some people.

 

So the question is where to draw the line. If we accept that these kinds of cartoon will always cause offense, do we start to make exceptions? Do we say, well, we can make fun of everyone - but not of these guys, that would be too much?

 

And personally, I am wondering how much of ANC's rage is actually directed at the perceived racism, and how much about the fact that they don't like what the cartoon actually said about what they were doing.

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Never attribute to malice that which can adequately be explained by incompetence.

 

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Well, not surprised that there's outrage on Twitter.

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Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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Okay, let me play devil's advocate here. I will admit that I may not see all the nuances in this cartoon, so perhaps for someone with a more South African perspective there is more offensive stuff in this cartoon then I can see. But would you say this cartoon is worse than say, the Danish cartoon that caused a lot of outrage among muslims? The one that very few people in the west thought needed an apology, and that was defended on the grounds that even if we didn't agree with the message itself, most of us felt that the cartoon maker was free to publish in the name of free speech?

 

I don't see the clowns cartoon to be any more or less offensive. Stereotypes and exaggerations are exactly what these kinds of cartoons thrive on. If a cartoonist wants to draw a Turk they give him a fez and a mustache, if they want to draw a Dutch girl she's going to wear wooden shoes, a silly hat and possibly smoke a joint. And you can certainly imagine that these kinds of stereotypical images will cause offense to some people.

 

So the question is where to draw the line. If we accept that these kinds of cartoon will always cause offense, do we start to make exceptions? Do we say, well, we can make fun of everyone - but not of these guys, that would be too much?

 

And personally, I am wondering how much of ANC's rage is actually directed at the perceived racism, and how much about the fact that they don't like what the cartoon actually said about what they were doing.

 

That's a very insightful post jadedmeister and I agree with most of it.

 

IMO the outrage from ANC supporters is more around the criticism on how they have been governing the country than the fact it is racist. But they are embellishing the racist element. To be clear the cartoon is not saying black South Africans are clowns, they are saying the people who voted in the ANC are clowns. Yes its not a nice thing to say but its a political cartoon and as you mentioned cartoons do present a caricature of people they represent.  What the cartoonist should have done is include some white faces in the picture of the voters then there would have been less of a furore

 

And I also think the global outrage due to the Danish cartoons was overdone and uncalled for

Edited by BruceVC

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Within what framework are we working here? Within the South African constitutional law or in the moral domain? Because i am only interested in the latter.

"Some men see things as they are and say why?"
"I dream things that never were and say why not?"
- George Bernard Shaw

"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

 

"The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."

- Some guy 

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First of all Twitter thinks everything is racist, Secondly I don't see the danger of one cartoon. It usually takes a massive amount of propaganda 24/7, government support and the silent of other views for a cartoon to be considered dangerous. Even then its just part of a greater whole with a sinister purpose.
So it offends people, the question should be: "Is it right?"

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I'd say the answer to that question is kind of like the answer to "who's the sucker in this poker game?"*

 

*If you can't tell, it's you. ;)

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No.

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The story here isn't a racist cartoon.

 

The story is how the governing party is taking the history of oppresion and death in South Africa, and using it as a 'get-out-of-jail'.

 

That's offensive.

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"It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"."

             -Elwood Blues

 

tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp.

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Within what framework are we working here? Within the South African constitutional law or in the moral domain? Because i am only interested in the latter.

 

Within the SA constitution its not illegal at all, we have free speech enshrined in our constitution. And no offensive words were used. This would be a debate around the morals and principles of acceptable journalism. Because this issue has become an argument where people say " its racist and unacceptable that a media house allows such a cartoon to get on there website"

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Within what framework are we working here? Within the South African constitutional law or in the moral domain? Because i am only interested in the latter.

 

Within the SA constitution its not illegal at all, we have free speech enshrined in our constitution. And no offensive words were used. This would be a debate around the morals and principles of acceptable journalism. Because this issue has become an argument where people say " its racist and unacceptable that a media house allows such a cartoon to get on there website"

 

Look at it this way, if you censor hateful and offensive speech you might go on thinking that some people you meet are decent when in reality they are a bubbling pot of anger, misogyny and racism. Let them reveal their character so that you can freely oppose them.

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I'd say the answer to that question is kind of like the answer to "who's the sucker in this poker game?"*

 

*If you can't tell, it's you. ;)

village_idiot.gif

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Within what framework are we working here? Within the South African constitutional law or in the moral domain? Because i am only interested in the latter.

 

Within the SA constitution its not illegal at all, we have free speech enshrined in our constitution. And no offensive words were used. This would be a debate around the morals and principles of acceptable journalism. Because this issue has become an argument where people say " its racist and unacceptable that a media house allows such a cartoon to get on there website"

 

Look at it this way, if you censor hateful and offensive speech you might go on thinking that some people you meet are decent when in reality they are a bubbling pot of anger, misogyny and racism. Let them reveal their character so that you can freely oppose them.

 

 

That's a very good point, it makes sense to understand who is opposite you  on certain issues. Nice one :thumbsup:

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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perhaps a more nuanced approach would be to suggest that this was an issue which deserved an editorial, not a cartoon.

"It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"."

             -Elwood Blues

 

tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp.

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Within what framework are we working here? Within the South African constitutional law or in the moral domain? Because i am only interested in the latter.

 

Within the SA constitution its not illegal at all, we have free speech enshrined in our constitution. And no offensive words were used. This would be a debate around the morals and principles of acceptable journalism. Because this issue has become an argument where people say " its racist and unacceptable that a media house allows such a cartoon to get on there website"

 

Look at it this way, if you censor hateful and offensive speech you might go on thinking that some people you meet are decent when in reality they are a bubbling pot of anger, misogyny and racism. Let them reveal their character so that you can freely oppose them.

 

 

Pretty much, yeah.

"Some men see things as they are and say why?"
"I dream things that never were and say why not?"
- George Bernard Shaw

"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

 

"The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."

- Some guy 

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As part of the vast majority of humanity that is not South African... What?

 

I don't get it.

 

Race isn't even a factor to me, what is this supposed to mean? I've seen bad political cartoons in my time, but this is just incomprehensible. You need to provide context for the vast majority of humanity which does not know/care about South Africa's very existence.

Edited by AGX-17
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Yeah, just looking at the cartoon it didn't appear racist to me. I may be off base, but my underatanding is that the racism card is pulled quite often by incompetent black south africans against white south africans when their incompetence is pointed out to them.

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The area between the balls and the butt is a hotbed of terrorist activity.

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Yeah, just looking at the cartoon it didn't appear racist to me. I may be off base, but my underatanding is that the racism card is pulled quite often by incompetent black south africans against white south africans when their incompetence is pointed out to them.

 

Yes this does happen from some ANC politicians. They claim the media is involved in an orchestrated campaign to undermine there efforts and they claim the media is biased. But the reality is the media is only doing its job and raising systemic issues of corruption and lack of good governance and accountability

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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The story here isn't a racist cartoon.

 

The story is how the governing party is taking the history of oppresion and death in South Africa, and using it as a 'get-out-of-jail'.

 

That's offensive.

Yuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuup.

 

 

If you ask me, almost everything is acceptable.

 

People everywhere need to grow a thicker skin and stop acting like the entire world revolves around their oh-so-precious feelings.

Nope, sorry, trying sounding smarter somewhere else.

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if you put things in perspective, democracy's major strength is also it's biggest flaw: in a democracy the people get the government they deserve, no better and no worse!

so if the government is made of clowns, then the people who voted them into office are also clowns... plain and simple.

now if 90% of the people of a country are black, then i do not see how social parody can be racist for depicting black people in a comical way... for all we know the guy who made the picture could be black

The words freedom and liberty, are diminishing the true meaning of the abstract concept they try to explain. The true nature of freedom is such, that the human mind is unable to comprehend it, so we make a cage and name it freedom in order to give a tangible meaning to what we dont understand, just as our ancestors made gods like Thor or Zeus to explain thunder.

 

-Teknoman2-

What? You thought it was a quote from some well known wise guy from the past?

 

Stupidity leads to willful ignorance - willful ignorance leads to hope - hope leads to sex - and that is how a new generation of fools is born!


We are hardcore role players... When we go to bed with a girl, we roll a D20 to see if we hit the target and a D6 to see how much penetration damage we did.

 

Modern democracy is: the sheep voting for which dog will be the shepherd's right hand.

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