Will Pillars of Eternity have better combat system than Dragon Age Origins?

[Malignacious]

I worry that it'll be the same in PoE, yes. And yes, I am referring to the animations. The ones that exist solely to tell the player visually what spell a dude just cast. It's kind of a big deal for those animations to be similar enough that reading their descriptions is necessary to identify them - and that's assuming you know what spell is being cast, which you often don't. Enemy spells that don't hit a party member are not listed in the combat log.

 

And yes, you bet your ass I'm going to complain if spells aren't distinct enough. If that bothers anybody, well, sucks to be you. I want this game to be great, and I'll piss off as many people as I have to to make it great.

 

I'm always worried that lack of visual fidelity, diversity and animation quality will utterly destroy indie games.

Sorry if this seems superficial but if you don't have those things your whole game is ruined no matter how "deep" or expansive anything else is.

 

This is 2014., not 1995., so let's all stop pretending it is, OK?

[MReed]

One problem that I see with the combat log in the Infinity Engine games is that it doesn't tell you why a target is immune or suffered reduced damage.  It really should say something like "Hit: Immune (Improved Mantel)" or "Hit: Immune (Innate Immunity)".  One of the big problems with the IE games is not knowing that the spell hasn't been cast (which, as has been pointed out, is mentioned in the log), but realizing that the reason you can't do damage now is because of the spell that as cast 200 lines ago.

 

Another UI issue that I'd like to see addressed is that there is no way to get a list of effects that are currently applied to opponents -- much less descriptions of those effects (if you can't use them yourself).  You really should be able to right click (or hover, perhaps) over an opponent and see  list of all currently active effects, which you can then click on to bring up a standard "spell description" page that covers things like duration and effects.

[MReed]

 

I worry that it'll be the same in PoE, yes. And yes, I am referring to the animations. The ones that exist solely to tell the player visually what spell a dude just cast. It's kind of a big deal for those animations to be similar enough that reading their descriptions is necessary to identify them - and that's assuming you know what spell is being cast, which you often don't. Enemy spells that don't hit a party member are not listed in the combat log.

 

And yes, you bet your ass I'm going to complain if spells aren't distinct enough. If that bothers anybody, well, sucks to be you. I want this game to be great, and I'll piss off as many people as I have to to make it great.

 

I'm always worried that lack of visual fidelity, diversity and animation quality will utterly destroy indie games.

Sorry if this seems superficial but if you don't have those things your whole game is ruined no matter how "deep" or expansive anything else is.

 

This is 2014., not 1995., so let's all stop pretending it is, OK?

 

 

This is very much your opinion -- it isn't one that everyone on this forum will share, and I (for starters) disagree.  Good graphics enhance a game, but only if there is the fundamentals exist in the first place.  I'd far, far prefer to play (say) BG2 than play DAI, even though DAI is clearly a graphically superior game.

[Malekith]

I'm always worried that lack of visual fidelity, diversity and animation quality will utterly destroy indie games.

 

Indie games do just fine, better than ever. But your consern is touching.

Sorry if this seems superficial but if you don't have those things your whole game is ruined no matter how "deep" or expansive anything else is.

It is superficial, but no need to apologise. It's your opinion after all. Just one many people disagree with. Graphics, physics etc. are at the very bottom of the things i care about.

This is 2014., not 1995., so let's all stop pretending it is, OK?

Funny how the games of 2014 are worse than those of 15 years back

[tajerio]

One problem that I see with the combat log in the Infinity Engine games is that it doesn't tell you why a target is immune or suffered reduced damage.  It really should say something like "Hit: Immune (Improved Mantel)" or "Hit: Immune (Innate Immunity)".  One of the big problems with the IE games is not knowing that the spell hasn't been cast (which, as has been pointed out, is mentioned in the log), but realizing that the reason you can't do damage now is because of the spell that as cast 200 lines ago.

 

NWN2, which Obsidian made, was definitely a step forward in that direction.  The combat log's superior in detail to that of the BG games, and it will often expand upon why an enemy isn't taking damage.  Given that NWN2 was eight years ago, and that Josh has made a detailed and usable combat log a goal for PoE, I'm pretty hopeful that PoE will have superb combat intelligence.

[neo6874]

 

This is 2014., not 1995., so let's all stop pretending it is, OK?

Funny how the games of 2014 are worse than those of 15 years back

 

19 years ago ...

[Mihura]

I hope so I always hated the way the skills on the player stay on the character even on cutscene, also I always found it way to slow. As for the skills in general it was nice, even how you could combine skills and made new effects. 

[W.MacKinnon]

I noticed someone brought up Beholders - in particular why they weren't explained in game (Powers, what not.) I really believe that was due to a meta-aspect assumed by the developer on the player. As a teenager playing the Infinity engine games - personally I would know every met enemy's innate resistances and most likely their powers. The Beholder in particular to anyone who played 2nd AD&D was a staple monster. It appeared on the cover of my monster manual.

 

Even though in current editions they seem to have feel to the wayside, the appeared often in modules and were often a good go to for a strong challenge for pc's. Frankly I can understand many complaints about being waylaid by beholders. I would know to flee but someone having never played a ad&d game? Another thing is that the old edition didn't have Challenge Ratings. Heck I remember having a lv5 party fight a Marilith demon(The tenari woman with multiple arms - snake tail). Frankly in 2nd they could be considered better then a Balor due to their 7 base attacks. Being a 14year old, man I tpk'd my players or sometimes just pulled punches to allow them to live and win. It was a dark time. ;p

Edited May 1, 2014 by W.MacKinnon

[Stun]

@Stun:

 

You know, I knew I was taking a shot in the dark on that one,

I, too, like to take shots in the dark and level criticisms which I'm not sure are valid, upon games.

 

Makes my posts look really smart!

[Malekith]

 

 

This is 2014., not 1995., so let's all stop pretending it is, OK?

Funny how the games of 2014 are worse than those of 15 years back

 

19 years ago ...

 

Well, i consider the 98' - 02' era games better than the 95' ones, so i chose those games as an example. But the point still stands eitherway. Very few games in the last decade came close to Ultima 7 or Betrayal at Krondor, and the couple that did weren't because of physics.

Edited May 1, 2014 by Malekith

[Stun]

Well, i consider the 98' - 02' era games better than the 95' ones, so i chose those games as an example. But the point still stands eitherway. Very few games in the last decade came close to Ultima 7 or Betrayal at Krondor, and the couple that did weren't because of physics.

^Or graphics. I thought we (the PoE backers and Chris Avellone fans) would be in total agreement that when it comes to Role Playing Games, using fancy, shiny visual effects as a vehicle for gameplay information presentation and even story-telling, is just slightly more important than the shrink-wrap on the game box. I thought that when Josh Sawyer proudly announced that PoE will not be a game for people who dislike reading, that the message was loud and clear.

 

 

Why is it then, that we still have people here who insist that today's cinematics-first RPGs are somehow more "evolved" and "better" than what we had in the 90s when combat logs were meant to be read and studied closely and that the player, in fact HAD to pay close attention to the combat log window or risk not knowing what's really going on in both combat and the game world as a whole?

Edited May 1, 2014 by Stun

[Ffordesoon]

Where are those people?

 

All I asked for was a clearer visual differentiation between spell effects and (especially) spell icons. Otherwise, we might as well just have the words "Improved Haste" float over casters' heads and no visual effects at all. Good graphics are important in that they are readable at a glance and communicate ideas effectively. This was as possible on the Commodore 64 as it is right now.

 

And, frankly, I will challenge the notion that paying close attention to the combat log is somehow "better" than paying attention to the action on the screen. Combat logs are great. Being able to refer back to stuff is great. But they're no more or less "quality" than readable onscreen action, and having both to choose from is not in any way an unworthy goal.

 

One other thing: the reason I took that "shot in the dark" is because I haven't played BG2 in a few days due to life stuff, and I couldn't remember whether or not enemy defensive spells are shown in the log. Whether or not that's true, however, is peripheral to my point, which is that visually distinct spell animations and icons are helpful for players and require no more effort than any other visual aspect of the game.

Edited May 1, 2014 by Ffordesoon

[PrimeJunta]

Well, there's @Malignacious...

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I'm positive he is someone's alt.

[Stun]

Where are those people?

 

All I asked for was a clearer visual differentiation between spell effects and (especially) spell icons. Otherwise, we might as well just have the words "Improved Haste" float over casters' heads and no visual effects at all. Good graphics are important in that they are readable at a glance and communicate ideas effectively. This was as possible on the Commodore 64 as it is right now.

 

And, frankly, I will challenge the notion that paying close attention to the combat log is somehow "better" than paying attention to the action on the screen. Combat logs are great. Being able to refer back to stuff is great. But they're no more or less "quality" than readable onscreen action, and having both to choose from is not in any way an unworthy goal.

 

One other thing: the reason I took that "shot in the dark" is because I haven't played BG2 in a few days due to life stuff, and I couldn't remember whether or not enemy defensive spells are shown in the log. Whether or not that's true, however, is peripheral to my point, which is that visually distinct spell animations and icons are helpful for players and require no more effort than any other visual aspect of the game.

I wasn't directing that comment at you.

 

I was talking about Malignacious. And specifically, this argument of his:

I'm always worried that lack of visual fidelity, diversity and animation quality will utterly destroy indie games.

Sorry if this seems superficial but if you don't have those things your whole game is ruined no matter how "deep" or expansive anything else is.

 

This is 2014., not 1995., so let's all stop pretending it is, OK?

[Ffordesoon]

Ah, well, yes, that guy is.... Yeah.

[Lephys]

I'm also sure that no matter how long this argument about the specifics of combat in BG2 goes on, PoE's combat will not be closely similar to BG2's, and no one will be proved right.

I'm honestly not even certain it would even matter if someone were proved right, here. Some of these arguments seem more about the journey than the destination. 8P

[Malignacious]

Well, there's @Malignacious...

And the vast majority of the gaming population, especially the younger one.

[Stun]

Thankfully, catering to the "vast majority especially kids" is neither the point of PoE, nor its developer's goal.

 

That was clear from day one too.

Edited May 2, 2014 by Stun

[Bryy]

 

Well, there's @Malignacious...

And the vast majority of the gaming population, especially the younger one.

 

That's generalization.

 

Most of today's young gamers are smart enough to know the difference.

 

There are exceptions, however.

[Lord Gorchnik]

 

I'm also sure that no matter how long this argument about the specifics of combat in BG2 goes on, PoE's combat will not be closely similar to BG2's, and no one will be proved right.

I'm honestly not even certain it would even matter if someone were proved right, here. Some of these arguments seem more about the journey than the destination. 8P

 

 

And given we haven't even seen the in-game action on a finalized beta build yet means we can just keep getting more and more excited for it!

[Lephys]

Hear hear! *raises tankard*

[Hassat Hunter]

Most of today's young gamers are smart enough to know the difference.

I'm not convinced...

 

But it seems more and more indies try to go back to the golden age, let's hope it re-educates the youth...

[Fatback]

I'm also for a wide breadth of casting animations because come on people I would rather read the screen to see what's happening than the combat log and between mixing colors and animations it wouldn't be as costly as you might think esp with unity. Fire ball and Ice spike can have the same animation with different color balls of energy on hands blue for ice and red for fire. Remember people the difference from ordinary to extraordinary is that little bit extra.

[MReed]

I'm also for a wide breadth of casting animations because come on people I would rather read the screen to see what's happening than the combat log and between mixing colors and animations it wouldn't be as costly as you might think esp with unity. Fire ball and Ice spike can have the same animation with different color balls of energy on hands blue for ice and red for fire. Remember people the difference from ordinary to extraordinary is that little bit extra.

 

Instantaneous effects, such as fireball, magic missile, lightning bolt, whatever are both easy to design graphics for and pretty much irrelevant to the discussion at hand.  After all, such effects are trivial (either damage or healing) and the log is right there if you need it.

 

The problem, though, is with effects that have a duration (whether buffs or debuffs).  It is easy to come up with a dozen effects that fall into one of these two categories:

 

* Poison (more generally, damage over time) /  Regeneration (healing over time)

* Blind / Improved vision (accuracy buff / debuf)

* Increased strength / decreased strength (damage buff / debuff)

* Mage Armor / Weaken armor (damage prevention buff / debuff)

* Haste / Slow (speed buff / debuff)

* Protection from <element> / Vulnerability to <element>

* Spell turning or Protection from spells

 

And so forth -- we could probably keep this going all day if we wanted to.  All of these buffs and debuffs share one common element -- they have a lingering effect (that the player might want to remove, or at least take into account when making actions in the future), and many of them have no obvious visual effect to make it clear that the effect is active.  Note that the combat log doesn't do you much good for these sorts of effects either -- depending on how busy combat is, and how long the effect persists, it might have been 200+ lines ago that the effect was put into place.

 

Reskinning existing animations won't work here -- if you decide "Protection from fire" will be represented by a blue aura around the character, and protection from cold is represented by a red aura, what do you do if both are active at the same time?  So, ideally, a unique animination should be applied to each buff / debuff (at least the ones that are compatible with one another), and that gets very expensive very quickly.  Thus, my recommendation of providing a way to see a simple text list of active effects on anyone, at any time.

 

When feasible, of course, animination should be provided for buffs and debuffs, but eventually you are going to run out of time / money / ideas...