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Death & Dying


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#21
constantine

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Thank you for the links PrimeJunta.

 

-From the wiki:

 

Some characters (e.g. barbarians) have a different formula for converting Stamina damage into Health damage.

 

 

now why would any sane person DO THAT ??!

 

 

*edit*: now that i think of it, barbarians are not known for their wisdom  :p


Edited by constantine, 22 April 2014 - 01:10 PM.


#22
ReyVagabond

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I cant imagine there wouldn't be rest spots inside dungeons. That would be...terrible.

 

 

Just the thought of it makes me wanna  :facepalm:   or maybe  :banghead:

 

Actually I’m against this! I hate the resting in the middle of a dungeon.

It must make sense and that depends on the Dungeon.

But lets say you are a cave. Inside the cave there are Bears. You kill some of them, and then you rest. So if you are careful the other bears may not want to attack you.

In that cave I would have no problem.

But let’s change the setting to, an Evil Mage Dungeon.

Lets say you kill half his minions to get there, for me its moronic to be able to sleep there, and still feel the world is real, alarms should sound, the mage should try ambush you, not 3 skeletons and what not, but a big ambush, with traps waking up in the middle of a fireball, or maybe some of your companions as hostages, or dead even. All depending of multiple skill checks and what not, but it should always should carry a consequence resting in dungeons you are invading, where people should roam and live there.

Resting in next to a room filled with bandits and with only the consequence that you where ambushed by 3 regular bandits its not enough.

That’s why I support going back to some sort of base camp, maybe that I set near the big dragon lair, but still not inside his lair.



#23
ReyVagabond

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Thank you for the links PrimeJunta.

 

-From the wiki:

 

Some characters (e.g. barbarians) have a different formula for converting Stamina damage into Health damage.

 

 

now why would any sane person DO THAT ??!

 

 

*edit*: now that i think of it, barbarians are not known for their wisdom  :p

Actualy this means that barbarian take more stamina damage and less health damage, their formula is 1/6 instead 1/4, so the can take a lot more pushment than other classes.

 

Fighters may have better armor, and defence. but barbarians have more helth, d10 vs d12,



#24
constantine

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Of course, I wouldn't like it if resting in the dungeon defies realistic outcome just as you described.

 

I guess I will have to trust the devs will also pull that one through and decide what is best for each case.

 

 

 

*Edit*: Also thanks for the explanation of the Barbarian's power ! I thought what was implied is that they converted Stamina DMG to Health DMG and I was like ... whaaah ??!


Edited by constantine, 22 April 2014 - 01:39 PM.


#25
Volourn

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"The only thing i hope is that every one that plays in expert mode plays also with ironman mode.  So they dont do any reloding after every death shananigans."

 

Nah. Ironman mode is too risky when it comes to the PC. Wouldn't trust one with a ten foot pole. if I could just the game to be 100% completely unbuggy and never crash, I'd be for it, but nope. Not gonna happen. Hardcore is cool. Ironman mode is cheating and liable to be abused by the game to screw you over in some lame way.

 

 

AS for resting in dungeons...  most dungeons no ala that mage dungeon described above or a crypt where a mummy keeps raising the dead. However, some dungeons it makes sense to be able tor est under certain conditions. ie. Undermountain - a huge place where you can find (relatively speaking) 'safe' corners to rest in.  Find a place, barricade yourself in, and you should be fine MOSTLY. But, yeah, should not be over done. Resting everywhere anytime with no consequences is lame. And, no being interrupted by 3 wimpy skeles is not punishment just annoying. A better way to do that. Say you rest in that mage's abode. He doesn't attack you, but he summons all his remaining minions  , sourrunds you (r blocks your one exist) and tells you to surrender or die. Instead of just killing you outright (can be boring) he can demand a service from you and  geas you to make sure you follow through. THAT would be punishment for resting in a dumb place at a dumb time without a lame game over and an interesting   side qeust resolution. :p



#26
illathid

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I imagine the rest spots in dungeons to be somewhat like the safe rooms in Left 4 Dead. That is easily guarded locations where a group of people could hold out for some time if necessary.


Edited by illathid, 22 April 2014 - 09:04 PM.

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#27
Osvir

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I hope there is some side-quest thing that allows you to choose whether or not to ressurect 1 character or get another reward.

Like... being able to bind one of your dead characters souls into an animat or similar. Let's take an example: Cadegund dies. We continue the journey without her, then we find this "location" which allows for ressurrection if we want to. We choose to reanimate Cadegund and now she's an animat.

There's 2 ways to do this:
A) Simple method: Cadegund is gone (now her true name is Cademat!), the Cademat won't talk in dialogues or intervene in the plot anymore, there's only a soul in bronze armor! The "perk" with having her ressurrected is that Cademat has all her skills before she died, can level up and gain experience. This is the simple method.

B) A bit more time-consuming method: Cademat can talk, but she has a new dialogue (due to her predicament). Maybe she or whoever becomes the Animat gets the same dialogue tree which is all spiritual and tormented "Why have you brought me back?". Basically, ressurrecting a dead soul to become an Animat isn't a very nice thing to do. So you pretty much forced someone out of the dead dimension and into the living world again. Existing in the physical realm as a spiritual being from the dead lands could be more seen as a curse than a blessing.

Having the same dialogue tree for a ressurrected companion is in my opinion the way to go (if this would be an option Obsidian would choose would they allow for a single ressurrection), otherwise they'd have to write 8 new dialogue trees (for each companion).

Why do I think this is cool? Shale in DA:O is one of the coolest companions in my opinion. She's a beast! But you kind of just find her on the way... what if you could make one of your companions into a golem? If there was a choice to make a character into one? I think that would be more interesting than simply finding a finished golem. The same thing with this animat thing.

What the reward could be if you choose not to ressurrect a companion (if this could be possible in some side-quest stuff) I don't know. Reputation? An item? Plot-points? I don't know.



#28
Lephys

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Might I point out once more, to the folks who seem to be extraordinarily worried about the limitation of only healing at rest spots, that you're not going to be playing BG with rest-anywhere stripped from it. BG did not have separate Stamina and Health pools designed specifically for a system that only lets you rest every so often (distance/progression-wise).

The point of rest spots is to give you an incentive to actually manage your Health wisely, instead of always just recklessly thinking "as long as at least one person still has like 1HP at the end of battle, I'm good, 'cause after the battle I can just replenish EVERYTHING! MUAHAHAHA!". It's not to make sure you never ever get to replenish your stuff, and it's always troublesome. You're not going to constantly fight groups of enemies that require every spell you have, and 90% of your Health, but only find a campsite/rest-spot every 17 encounters. I can't tell you they're not going to fail to do it perfectly, but they didn't implement a whole separate Health resource as a long-term, multi-fight resource (if everyone hits 0 Stamina, then you're dead and it's Game Over, no matter how much Health you have left) just to approach the entire thing as if your Health is just supposed to last you one battle and you'll never need to replenish it.

Your Health is designed to last you about as long as your per-day stuff is. This worry would be similar to worrying that they'll limit your Level 1 party to (example) 10 total spells/abilities per day, but each fight will require that at least 11 be cast, just to achieve victory.

Just like how in the IE games, if you died before finishing the fight (the point at which you could rest again), it wasn't because they didn't allow you to rest often enough. It was because you didn't make your resources last until you could rest again. In this game, if you're just traveling through your run-of-the-mill cavern or dungeon or fortress or something, and there are 10 fights between this rest spot and the next one, and you only make it two fights before you're down to 5% Health with everyone, it'll be because you're failing at combat, horribly. Not because the combat's designed to take that much out of you, but you're somehow supposed to become a divine being and forcibly will those creatures who deal 80 damage per hit to deal less damage per hit and/or be less numerous.

#29
zeee

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Might I point out once more, to the folks who seem to be extraordinarily worried about the limitation of only healing at rest spots, that you're not going to be playing BG with rest-anywhere stripped from it. BG did not have separate Stamina and Health pools designed specifically for a system that only lets you rest every so often (distance/progression-wise).

The point of rest spots is to give you an incentive to actually manage your Health wisely, instead of always just recklessly thinking "as long as at least one person still has like 1HP at the end of battle, I'm good, 'cause after the battle I can just replenish EVERYTHING! MUAHAHAHA!". It's not to make sure you never ever get to replenish your stuff, and it's always troublesome. You're not going to constantly fight groups of enemies that require every spell you have, and 90% of your Health, but only find a campsite/rest-spot every 17 encounters. I can't tell you they're not going to fail to do it perfectly, but they didn't implement a whole separate Health resource as a long-term, multi-fight resource (if everyone hits 0 Stamina, then you're dead and it's Game Over, no matter how much Health you have left) just to approach the entire thing as if your Health is just supposed to last you one battle and you'll never need to replenish it.

Your Health is designed to last you about as long as your per-day stuff is. This worry would be similar to worrying that they'll limit your Level 1 party to (example) 10 total spells/abilities per day, but each fight will require that at least 11 be cast, just to achieve victory.

Just like how in the IE games, if you died before finishing the fight (the point at which you could rest again), it wasn't because they didn't allow you to rest often enough. It was because you didn't make your resources last until you could rest again. In this game, if you're just traveling through your run-of-the-mill cavern or dungeon or fortress or something, and there are 10 fights between this rest spot and the next one, and you only make it two fights before you're down to 5% Health with everyone, it'll be because you're failing at combat, horribly. Not because the combat's designed to take that much out of you, but you're somehow supposed to become a divine being and forcibly will those creatures who deal 80 damage per hit to deal less damage per hit and/or be less numerous.

agreed. the stamina/health system is a nice change of pace. i am sure it will be tested and balance properly



#30
J.E. Sawyer

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It's been a long time since we've talked about our resting system and it's changed in the past few months.  It's largely the same overall, but key mechanics have changed in important ways.

 

* The Stamina/Health mechanics still work as they have previously.  The one exception is how Maimed works on non-Expert settings.  Maimed is now only a stop-gap before death.  I.e., even on ordinary difficulty settings, any character can die if they are currently Maimed and lose their remaining Health.  As before, Maimed characters have terrible penalties to their Accuracy and all defenses but move at full speed.  Using a Maimed character in combat is asking for them to get killed.  The reason for this change was to prevent the use of Maimed characters as immortal trap-sniffers or recipients of an enemy's hard first volley.

 

* We still restrict where you can rest (as in the IE games), but resting does not have to be performed at very specific spots in the world (there are still a few camps where you can rest anytime, for free).  Instead, each time the party rests in the middle of nowhere, they consume 1 unit of Camp Supplies.  Based on your difficulty settings, the party can carry a maximum number of Camp Supplies (currently ranging from 6 to 2).  The supplies are a single item type and can be purchased from vendors (also rarely can be found in the world).  The supplies represent a party count, like wealth, and are represented by a number in the inventory and on the rest button in the main UI.  To rest, all you need to do is press the rest button.  The game checks to make sure it's okay to camp in that location at that time and will give you the option to access your Stash or go directly into rest.

 

* You can also rest at inns and your house (once you acquire it).  Based on the room you select at the inn, you will gain temporary bonuses that generally correlate to the expense of the room.  I.e., more expensive rooms grant larger or more bonuses.  These bonuses last for a specific number of rests following your stay at the inn.  Only a single resting bonus can be active at a time, so you can't just chain-sleep for a collection of bonuses.  If you sleep at your house, you select from the bonuses you've unlocked from your upgrades.  These tend to be less varied than those found at inns and you have to pay for the upgrades upfront, but after that it's effectively a free bonus of one specific type that lasts for a number of rests.


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#31
IndiraLightfoot

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Wonderful info, Josh! :)

 

Two questions:

-If we press the "rest" button, will there sometimes (often) appear baddies that rudely awaken us during our beauty sleep?

-Will any resting take whatever hours to get the party to full health/stamina? Or will it be a more natural rest time that you'll have to redo, if you are really wounded overall?



#32
J.E. Sawyer

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We don't have random encounters on rest.  Resting always takes 8 hours and will restore characters to full Health, remove Maimed and other long-term afflictions, and restore all per-rest abilities/item charges.


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#33
IndiraLightfoot

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Alright. That's much easier! And I guess the camp supplies are the rest limiter, as well as more areas being non-restable. I mean, in IWD2, you could always force-rest in the midst of goblin fortresses etc, even with a few enemies wandering the edges of the palisades. You took the hit of one or two new encounters, but then you finally got a rest that worked.


Edited by IndiraLightfoot, 25 April 2014 - 10:20 AM.

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#34
Amentep

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I like the idea of the camping supplies instead of rest spots. Will be interesting to see how that shapes up.
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#35
Gfted1

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Huzzah!


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#36
Nonek

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I assume rest spots are still actually in game, but are simply not flagged as such and are more organically presented as safe areas, where one can use the aforementioned Camp Supplies. Which I think personally is probably a very smart move to mollify players who are upset about the percieved limiting of freedom.



#37
Amentep

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Huzzah!


Was curious to see what you thought about this. I thought it'd be a step in a direction more to your liking!

#38
Gfted1

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Huzzah!


Was curious to see what you thought about this. I thought it'd be a step in a direction more to your liking!

 

 

I think its a nice compromise that blends a little bit of resource management (2-6 "free" rests) with not being a pain to use. :thumbsup:  


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#39
WorstUsernameEver

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* We still restrict where you can rest (as in the IE games), but resting does not have to be performed at very specific spots in the world (there are still a few camps where you can rest anytime, for free).  Instead, each time the party rests in the middle of nowhere, they consume 1 unit of Camp Supplies.  Based on your difficulty settings, the party can carry a maximum number of Camp Supplies (currently ranging from 6 to 2).  The supplies are a single item type and can be purchased from vendors (also rarely can be found in the world).  The supplies represent a party count, like wealth, and are represented by a number in the inventory and on the rest button in the main UI.  To rest, all you need to do is press the rest button.  The game checks to make sure it's okay to camp in that location at that time and will give you the option to access your Stash or go directly into rest.


Funny, a couple of days ago I was wondering why you didn't go for a similar system rather than the camp spots.

#40
Volourn

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These changes receive the Volournian approval.






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